351 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

I'm starting to get tired of people not understanding how MWO game mechanics work, then trying to spread their own BS.

I've had people try to tell me you can't one shot a mech with Dual Gauss (or any 30 PP FLD source) because crits don't work they way they do (they're wrong).


Due to how the crit mechanic works, each Gauss crit will deal 2.25 extra points of damage. That is, 15% of the damage dealt to Internal Structure(IS).

Here's a diagram of what can be crit on every mech:

Ferro and Endo would count as Roll Again, but notice how there are 3 separate head items that can be crit.


FLD weapons have the advantage that as soon as damage is dealt to IS, it will deal full crit damage, even if it dealt 2 damage with a Gauss, you'll still deal 15 Critical Damage (different than normal damage), which will in turn deal 2.25 additional real damage to the IS.


In the case of the cockpit with 15 structure and 18 armour points, you would expect this to happen when 30 damage hits it:



That isn't always the reality because when the Gauss scores 2 crits, you deal 4.5 extra damage



And since 34.5>33, pop


The chance for 2 crits is natively at 17%, 14% for 2 crits and 3% for 3 crits.

TCs do increase this percentage by a given amount, TC1s bring it up ~3% to 19.94%, and TC7s bring it up 5.06%, to 22.06%.
Terrible return on the TC7.


Yes, very low, but I still don't like the mechanic.

PPCs also have it...but, you know, PPCs. Ghost heat and slow projectile speed have killed those off pretty well.


They actually have a higher rate to decapitate you than Gauss, since they have 2 crit rolls as opposed to 1. They require the same 2 crits as the Gauss, as each crit deals 1.5 damage, to total 33 even.

It works with Clams too:


PPC1 hits armour, PPC2 breaches and rolls, PPC3 hits structure and rolls.
So, a potential 6 crits, but it only needs 2. I'm no expert at this, but does that give PPCs double the % as Gauss? 34% stock decapitation rate, and Clams can increase that to 44%.
Although, I'm not sure about that one, feel free to correct me. All I know is that it's more likely mathematically than the Gauss, but less likely in actual gameplay due to downsides in the weapon and multiple nerfs.


With the Gauss 2KM/s travel time, even I've gotten a half dozen one-shots when I took the Muromets out for that weekend Tourney. Of course, you can't tell if the other guy has max armour or not. Surprisingly easy to headshot...if the other guy lets you. Even had a pair of back to back One-shots...Hackusations are quite nice, but no, just abusing game mechanics.


Easy fix for the Gauss is, without touching anything else relevant to damage dealing, projectile speed, or recycle is simply to touch the crit damage multiplier. MGs have a 9x damage multiplier and LBx series have a 2x multiplier...what's to stop the Gauss from having a 0.5x modifier?
It's a simple .XML addition...but PGI has issues with those.

That makes it so a single crit can only destroy another Gauss rifle, and ECM. To destroy a cockpit and an AC20, it would require the impressive 3% crit, which even a TC7 keeps below 4% (+.89%). Every other item (10HP) would require the same 2 crits it currently takes for one-shotting cockpits.



So, I've got to ask the community...do we support instagibbing? We already have AC35s that fall from the sky that can instantly kill you, and this one shot crit system hasn't been touched for years...so I guess the answer is yes...but I'd still like to ask.


And for those who are interested...putting your head at 17 armour or less makes you eligible for a 42% chance to die instantly with an IS Dual Gauss robot, or with Clams a 49.26 chance w/TC1 to 54.5% chance with a TC7.

32.25>32, so a single crit will do you in, with a ~50% chance for it to happen with the typical Whale, without even accounting for the massive laservomit alpha that just needs to graze your face.

And, yes, the Gauss Rifle can have a better crit chance than the Machine Gun. I found that amusing.

Edited by Mcgral18, 28 June 2015 - 05:54 PM.

[Kiiyor]

I would support this.

I run a dual gauss Yager a fair amount, and I do enjoy aiming for faces. While headshot kills are HILARIOUS against direwolves, the hackusations get tiresome after a while.

Can always finish off the face with a good ol' laser spray anyways.

[Armorine]

and your point? if you get wacked in the cockpit perectly with that much fire power you deserve to die. in the entire time ive been playing MOW ived been intagibbed once. headshotted maybe 10 times. head shots are a joke. almost myth status with how little they happen. hardly a problem

[AbsUserName]

I really cannot understand what you mean.

The idea is that a SINGLE GAUSS ROUND takes out the whole head. PGI is nice and good and doubled armor, so you need 2 gauss and something else.

The weapons that can one-shot the head in the wargame rules: cER-PPC, AC20, Gauss.

Surely this double armor thing is done in the name of fun, but this esports craze can't really stand against the brutal nature of wargaming. All sports are games, but not all games are sport. Chess, for instance, is not a sport but a game: no "let's balance for fun", just brutal, statistic truth finding.

Thanks for the patience.

TL, DR: mechs are very good destruction machines, one-shot is just the way it is. Get some cover.

Edited by AbsUserName, 28 June 2015 - 06:10 PM.

[Alan Davion]

The thing I think most 'pug' players don't really understand is just how absurdly tiny the actual head/cockpit hit box is.

I've done a fair bit of testing in the training grounds, and the head hit box is, on most mechs, is like I said, absurdly tiny. The Atlas especially. It's got a huge head, but only that one little left eye actually counts as the 'head' hit box. Anywhere else you're hitting Center Torso.

The only mechs I've found that are easy to headshot in the training ground are the Centurion and the Cataphract, their 'head' hit boxes are still small, but are more easily hit when compared to the Awesome, Atlas, and all the other mechs on the training ground field.

Take things into the game itself and get all those mechs moving, it's next to impossible to successfully hit the actual head hit box, and is down to a combination of luck, skill, and mech build. One of my teammates managed this once... 2 months ago now I think it was. On River City, he was in his Dual Gauss King Crab, or maybe it was a Jager, I don't recall, and he managed to headshot an Urbanmech. I have to imagine the 'head' hit box on the Urbie is just as small as like the Cicada, Jenner and Awesome on the training fields.

I'm sure there's more factors to consider, but luck, some skill and the mech build are probably the top three.

If there were images around here that highlighted where the head/ct hit boxes differentiated, that might get people to stop throwing around the 'hackusations', but only if those people actually visit the MWO site/forums and did the research.

Plus that's a lot of mechs to go around and attempt to highlight just where the head hit box actually is.

[El Bandito]

I died more to strikes hitting my cockpit than dual Gauss so I would personally argue for lowering strike damage. That said, I never lowered my cockpit armor again.

[Kristov Kerensky]

I have no issues with dual gauss being able to get a lucky 1 shot on my cockpit.

Then again, I come from the TT game where a single gauss to the cockpit is death on every single Mech without a crit, it's just something that happens once a while.

I also play other PvP games where 1 single round to the head from most of the weapons is an instant kill, it's rather an expected thing in a PvP style game where you have a head that can be targeted, it's why snipers are so hated and so common in so many PvP games.

[Mcgral18]

Armorine, on 28 June 2015 - 06:03 PM, said:

and your point? if you get wacked in the cockpit perectly with that much fire power you deserve to die. in the entire time ive been playing MOW ived been intagibbed once. headshotted maybe 10 times. head shots are a joke. almost myth status with how little they happen. hardly a problem

Well, actually, no. 30 damage is not supposed to break through 33 points of HP...


My point is getting some opinions on it.
MWO is less COD like, and generally longer TTK, so instagibs seem to go against that.

[Ultimax]

Personally, I'm fine with headshots and Dual Gauss being good at it.

It's the most real expression of actual sniping in this game (one shot, one kill) - it takes 24-30 tons of guns to do, requires decent aiming, some leading and managing charge up.




However I think your take on this, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you are mostly unhappy with the way the crit system works.


I'd be all for supporting "crit seeking" weapons being better at criting if that is the thrust here, but I don't think I'd support changing Gauss ability to head shot targets.


Most of the headshots I pull off are on stationary targets, or targets who don't torso twist away when they aren't shooting - I think punishing that is fine.

[DoctorDetroit]

I am for limiting any one shot potential because it dissuades hackers. Good players wont go for cockpit so it wont hurt real gameplay. Only a positive benefit to stop 1 shot potential.

Edited by DoctorDetroit, 28 June 2015 - 06:31 PM.

[Jman5]

I think people underestimate the threat headshots pose. Currently, lag makes it so difficult unless a target is still or running straight at you. If that is ever fixed, which may happen on Tuesday, headshots could become much more of a problem.

I have never liked the way crit damage applies fully if the shot breaks armor. It leads to scenarios where you do 30 damage to 29 armor and then your one damage to internals crit out all the component weapons in one hit. If it were up to me, I would change the way Crit damage works so that only the damage that actually applies to internal structure can crit.

So in our scenario with a 30 damage dual gauss that double crits a fully armored head:

18 damage applies to the armor, leaving 12 damage to the internal. Assuming it dual crits you would do 13.8 damage to the internal leaving you with 1.2 hitpoints.

Unfortunately Mcgral, I wouldn't get my hopes up of this ever getting changed unless headshots become a serious problem. As you said, most people don't really understand the critical hit mechanics so its hard to muster support. And PGI certainly doesn't appreciate the problem.

My advice is to try to abuse it as much you can to get the problem on peoples radar.

Edited by Jman5, 28 June 2015 - 06:37 PM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

I've noticed dual gauss deals more than 30 damage at times and has a high statistic for crits.

Its not isolated to head shots. A dual gauss to the torso (and presumably other parts of a mech) can have the same effect.

[DAYLEET]

I got headshoted once, it was my own fault for shutting down infront of someone. It can happen, if you are good enough to do it in a fight im happy for you, i dont even have the achievement. well i don't think i do.

Jman5, on 28 June 2015 - 06:31 PM, said:

My advice is to try to abuse it as much you can to get the problem on peoples radar.

That's the secret those fat cat in washington don't want you to know. Seriously, it's the only way to get a problem fixed, make sure everyone has it.

Edited by DAYLEET, 28 June 2015 - 06:35 PM.

[Mystere]

Quote

Do We Support Dual Gauss One-Shots?

Yes, hell yes!

[Mcgral18]

I Zeratul I, on 28 June 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

I've noticed dual gauss deals more than 30 damage at times and has a high statistic for crits.

Its not isolated to head shots. A dual gauss to the torso (and presumably other parts of a mech) can have the same effect.

Correct, but generally less devastating due to a larger hitpoint pool.

Crit system is universal, affects all hitboxes the same.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 28 June 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

Personally, I'm fine with headshots and Dual Gauss being good at it.

It's the most real expression of actual sniping in this game (one shot, one kill) - it takes 24-30 tons of guns to do, requires decent aiming, some leading and managing charge up.




However I think your take on this, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you are mostly unhappy with the way the crit system works.


I'd be all for supporting "crit seeking" weapons being better at criting if that is the thrust here, but I don't think I'd support changing Gauss ability to head shot targets.


Most of the headshots I pull off are on stationary targets, or targets who don't torso twist away when they aren't shooting - I think punishing that is fine.

I've got no problem with Gauss doing 30 damage and being very easy to use

As you say, I don't like how it's one of the best crit weapons in the game, with 1 point of heat, and the longest range in the game because it still has 3x optimal.


Changing that also changes 30 damage becoming greater than 33, in this case.



Other option is to fix PP FLD being the best crit weapons in the game.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

DAYLEET, on 28 June 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

I got headshoted once, it was my own fault for shutting down infront of someone. It can happen, if you are good enough to do it in a fight im happy for you, i dont even have the achievement. well i don't think i do.

Practice in testing grounds. Its not as hard as you think.

[Ultimax]

Jman5, on 28 June 2015 - 06:31 PM, said:

I think people underestimate the threat headshots pose because lag makes it so difficult unless a target is still. If that is ever fixed, which may happen on Tuesday, headshots could become much more of a problem.

I have never liked the way crit damage applies fully if the shot breaks armor. It leads to scenarios where you do 30 damage to 29 armor and then on top of it crit out all the component weapons in one hit. If it were up to me, I would change the way Crit damage works so that only the damage that actually applies to internal structure can crit.

So in our scenario with a 30 damage dual gauss that double crits a fully armored head:

18 damage applies to the armor, leaving 12 damage to the internal. Assuming it dual crits you would do 13.8 damage to the internal leaving you with 1.2 hitpoints.

Unfortunately Mcgral, I wouldn't get my hopes up of this ever getting changed unless headshots become a serious problem. As you said, most people don't really understand the critical hit mechanics so its hard to muster support. And PGI certainly doesn't appreciate the problem.

My advice is to try to abuse it as much you can to get the problem on peoples radar.

I think this area might actually be one of those areas where I'd much prefer to incentivize some lesser equipment/mechanics than nerf if possible.


For example, I really like the ideas that have been tossed around with STD Structure and Standard Armor granting resistances to damage or more internal structure.

Keeping with that theme, STD Engine/Structure could have very large critical resistance benefits.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 28 June 2015 - 08:59 PM.

[ChapeL]

I'm fine with dual guass head shot kills. I'm also fine with one AC20 hit sending a light mech on it's arse... or heavy concentrated fire power doing the same to any mech for that matter. ( That used to happen in both MW3 and 4 )
..but I disgress

[Mystere]

DAYLEET, on 28 June 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

I got headshoted once, it was my own fault for shutting down infront of someone. It can happen, if you are good enough to do it in a fight im happy for you, i dont even have the achievement. well i don't think i do.



That's the secret those fat cat in washington don't want you to know. Seriously, it's the only way to get a problem fixed, make sure everyone has it.

Hold a second! It looks like you were initially for it, and then you were against it. Make up your mind. Do you consider it a problem or not?