81 replies to this topic

[Ovion]

Charlie Pohr, on 30 June 2015 - 04:31 AM, said:

Spheroid, on 29 June 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

The game is not pay2win. Why do you believe it to be?

What many of you here fail to understand is that its not what we veterans think that is important. Remember that he is referring to his newbie friends.

Spoiler

Try to see it from their perspective instead of from your tweaked meta mech.

The only way for MWO to expand and gain a larger player base is if newbies don't feel intimidated and are willing to stick around, and that 'holier-than-thou' attitude really doesn't help.

It might not be P2W but you will only realize that after you've had sufficient exposure to the game and than you'll see that its actually 'Pay 2 skip grinding'.

However, from their perspective, they are piloting a standard build mech vs our meta mechs where they get roundly trounced. Can you see how it feels P2W for them now?

The problem is that MWO doesn't have a matchmaker that will only pit newbies against each other, and its hugely discouraging to the point where many will just call it quits rather than put up with the grind that its needed to catch up. Of course, they can skip the grind...if they are willing to pay. You get it now?

So yeah...its P2W, at least when viewed from the newbie perspective.

That's a false statement though, as it's not P2W is it - you're starting at a low level effectively, and have to 'level up'.

You don't have to pay for that.

And how is asking how they feel it's Pay to Win (not answered btw) a 'holier than thou' attitude?
That's called discussion.

I concur, the matchmaker and NPE in general needs some work to make it more accessible though.

[Jody Von Jedi]

I'm an old Mechwarrior junkie. I've played all the titles since the 90s.

Even with my experience in piloting a walking tank, it was still 6 months of regular play before I started feeling like I was contributing to my team.

This game has a huge learning curve. I feel sorry for new players, but most of us have gone through the same learning experience and learned the game mechanics. Elo is in the process of being recalculated based on what Russ said in the latest Town Hall meeting. This game is incredibly hard to balance. Not only do you have to consider mech weight class, but player skill, and even the effectiveness of the players mech building skills (MWO Battlevalue incoming). These changes should improve the new player experience. A new PVE mode was also discussed that will help train new recruits.

And as others have said, this game is definitely Free to Play, but does offer Pay for early access to new mechs. It is not Pay to Win.

For example, my 2 very best performing mechs are the TDR-5SS and the EFR-4R, QKD-5K is a close 3rd.

I average 1.85 KDR on those mechs and they are all available for C-bills.

On the otherhand, the mech I paid real money for that I just used in the latest hero event, the QKD-IV4, has a measly 1.34 KDR. Even one of the best Hero mechs in the game at one time, the Ilya Mouromets I only have a .84 KDR with.

At least in my experience, I perform much better in C-Bill variants than mechs available for purchase with real world money.

In my mind, this makes MW:O definitely NOT P2W.

[LordBraxton]

That Guy, on 29 June 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

because the mech modelers and texture artists make features, game modes, and fixes


and because obviously MWO has had no meaningful updates in the past year, with no prospects of advancement EVER AGAIN




(sarcasm if you are a bit thick)

MWO has had no meaningful updates in the past 3 years besides the terribad CW mode, and has no realistic prospects of advancement EVER AGAIN.

I rewrote it without sarcasm

[Mawai]

zagibu, on 30 June 2015 - 12:29 AM, said:

Somehow they got by before they released the mech packs. If the mech packs are now a substantial part of their profit, it has to be assumed that their profit got substantially larger.

They have always released mech packs. It has always been the fundamental basis for most of their income. The original founders program that raised over $5 million was a mech pack ... the top tier included one founders mech in each weight class.

Every time afterward that they needed an infusion of income they released another mech pack. More recently, they have essentially gone to a regular release schedule for mech packs so that their income stream can remain more steady. In addition, they changed the approach so that all previous mech packs are still available for new players. The exception being the Phoenix pack (and Founders ... but Founders is something of a unique case).

[InspectorG]

MechaBattler, on 29 June 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Explain how it's pay to win. Every time a troll comes out of the wood work. They make vague derogatory comments about the game. And when I ask how it's pay to win. They either misdirect or don't respond.

"I cant win with these free mechs = game MUST be P2W"

amirite?

[Burktross]

Well, pay to preorder for new mechs, and pay to not suffer for the grind. Thank goodness the only finite thing, mechbays, are very fairly priced.

[Mawai]

Charlie Pohr, on 30 June 2015 - 04:31 AM, said:

What many of you here fail to understand is that its not what we veterans think that is important. Remember that he is referring to his newbie friends.

Try to see it from their perspective instead of from your tweaked meta mech.

The only way for MWO to expand and gain a larger player base is if newbies don't feel intimidated and are willing to stick around, and that 'holier-than-thou' attitude really doesn't help.

It might not be P2W but you will only realize that after you've had sufficient exposure to the game and than you'll see that its actually 'Pay 2 skip grinding'.

However, from their perspective, they are piloting a standard build mech vs our meta mechs where they get roundly trounced. Can you see how it feels P2W for them now?

The problem is that MWO doesn't have a matchmaker that will only pit newbies against each other, and its hugely discouraging to the point where many will just call it quits rather than put up with the grind that its needed to catch up. Of course, they can skip the grind...if they are willing to pay. You get it now?

So yeah...its P2W, at least when viewed from the newbie perspective.

This occurs in ANY game that has a mix of new and experienced players. Is any leveled MMO out there pay to win because some folks start before you do and are higher level? In my opinion no.

A game is pay to win when spending real money obtains an advantage that is unavailable to other players.

The pay for early access model that PGI uses can be considered by some folks as pay to win if PGI doesn't do a good job on balancing the new content. In the early release phase, folks can often pay to obtain access to mechs that outclass existing ones due to power creep. The Timberwolf and Stormcrow are prime examples ... I think PGI took so long to apply any nerfs to these not because they did not need them but to avoid people complaining about the mechs being pay to win rather than pay for early access. PGI waited to nerf them until a substantial time after they were available for cbills so that everyone who wanted to play the more powerful mechs had an opportunity ... THEN they nerfed them a bit. Nerfing sooner might well have drawn a lot more criticism (some of it justifiable).

From a new player perspective ...

... they have not unlocked any XP on any mechs ... these mechs end up being underpowered compared to fully unlocked mechs. However, this is the level system at work and there is no way to pay to get around it.

... they have a huge selection of mechs these days ... and it is hard to know what you would like to play. The cadet bonus allows you to purchase one or two mechs ... the problem is that the cheapest light mechs may very well not be the play style you will prefer.

Personally, I think a new player experience is required (I and many others have been saying this since closed beta so I won't hold my breath ). Ideally, for a new player they get a chance to pilot mechs of each class and at the end they can choose a starter mech (that can't be sold) from the weight class that they preferred playing. The current system is easier to code but the pricing favours putting new players into light mechs which are great fun but require a play style that is not suited for many players. Lots of folks starting might choose to buy a commando or locust for example because they are cheap ... but this is a recipe for a dissatisfied new player since many folks won't have fun playing them.

[Burktross]

That Guy, on 29 June 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

because the mech modelers and texture artists make features, game modes, and fixes

Just to play devils advocate, the mech modelers, if they hadn't been, well, mech modelling, could devote that skill into fixing old mechs (cough cough quickdraw) or making new art assets for maps.

Not that mech packs shouldn't be released, but its something to think about.

[Summon3r]

if PGi was at all greedy they would simply stop focussing on the dead and failed CW and make a good a proper PVE experience, which 95% of the players have asked for. that would effectively give PGI a license to print money imho.

right now im assuming they are jsut trying to keep there heads above water

[Love in an Annihilator]

Ovion, on 30 June 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

Mech packs are just about the cheapest, most sensibly priced thing in MWO, with each thing in it costing 1/8th what it would in-game ( basically 87% off).

OK. I just would never spend 120$ (90$) on a game at once, nevermind on a pretty small part of a game, that's all.

I bought 6500 MC recently after about 6,7 months of playing and that was more a "thanks for the nice game PGI" rather than really wanting to buy stuff.

Will probably do the same again in another 6 months if i still enjoy it.

[InspectorG]

Ghogiel, on 30 June 2015 - 03:34 AM, said:

And the TBR and DWF kinda did have the equivalent to uber lava cannons in the form of clan weapons when they first came out. No one else had those weapons except pack buyers, They dropped in June and didn't come out until like Nov for cbills. They were so clearly OP.

You also gotta remember, Pre-Buying Clan Invasion 1 of 3 outcomes:

Clans same as IS and not really anything other than reskins... Fail.
Clans are WEAKER than IS...Lore fanbois hurt, $ wasted...Fail.

Clans were slightly OP...Lore held, $ spent more or less happily, game progresses(call it as you may)

So the early adopters who spend money on speculative mechs took a GAMBLE on a good 1/3 outcome.

People tend to downplay the risk in(PGI's) the P2W model...

[Burktross]

InspectorG, on 30 June 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

You also gotta remember, Pre-Buying Clan Invasion 1 of 3 outcomes:

Clans same as IS and not really anything other than reskins... Fail.
Clans are WEAKER than IS...Lore fanbois hurt, $ wasted...Fail.

Clans were slightly OP...Lore held, $ spent more or less happily, game progresses(call it as you may)

So the early adopters who spend money on speculative mechs took a GAMBLE on a good 1/3 outcome.

People tend to downplay the risk in(PGI's) the P2W model...

So, gamble to win?

[Nik Reaper]

The whole p2w thing is debatable, you can't say it's not there, though you can compare it to other games and say it's less so.

Remember the ~half year of Dragonslayers , no point in debating if it is the best victor and we REQUIRED to be competable at the time much like the Ember for a time, then let's remember the whole clan invasion pre balance changes.... and sure they became cbill available after ~3~6 months but for that time they can very much be a notable competitive edge ( can't wait to see how the IIc mechs do, some great builds incoming for those who payed for them ) so are the devs fair to all? No, but it's for the most part tolerable and understandable as mech packs are what is keeping pirana games afloat with such a niche product.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 30 June 2015 - 07:15 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Your friends are misinformed, it not pay to win at all there is not weapon that you cannot get, there is no pilot or mech skill, there is no module only available for hard cash, by spending time and effort only you can have all the weapons all the modules

Its pay to have a substandard hero, with a 30% c-bill bonus ( I own them all )

and Pay for early access

Only semi pay wall there is, in Mech warrior online are mech bays if you want to ....keep .... the ones you have Mastered , if not you can play MWO for nothing, forever.


Buying more mech bays is a personal choice

Edited by Cathy, 30 June 2015 - 08:03 AM.

[Nik Reaper]

Cathy, on 30 June 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

...

Its pay to have a substandard hero, with a 30% c-bill bonus ( I own them all )

...

Right , coz mechs like the huginn , grid iron and misery are pure substandard death traps eh...
And the period of clan exclusivity and dominance pre heat changes of the lasers post cbill release didn't happen eh , or did you buy them and didn't notice?

It was survivable , as I don't play competitivly but I watch streams of those games and see what is/was used , and heck even the IIc will be survivable, but the question is there a competitive edge to be bought? yes for a period of about ~3 months ( do like it's only 2 months after for the jenner IIc ) you can have an edge ( sometimes not when the mechs in the pack aren't as good and they seem to not make heros to be p2w, it's just that some times they are ) .

Edited by Nik Reaper, 30 June 2015 - 11:46 AM.

[zagibu]

grievoussmaug, on 30 June 2015 - 02:56 AM, said:

They got by thanks to IGP. now that IGP has kick, they need addition funds to make pew pews.

Notice how the mech pack scheme came about after IGP full left.

Somehow I can't see how having to support more people on the same product makes it easier to get by.

[Raggedyman]

Burktross, on 30 June 2015 - 06:21 AM, said:

Just to play devils advocate, the mech modelers, if they hadn't been, well, mech modelling, could devote that skill into fixing old mechs (cough cough quickdraw) or making new art assets for maps.

Not that mech packs shouldn't be released, but its something to think about.

Possibly, though it depends if they have dedicated terrain and mech artists or just a general artist pool. Very different disciplines, even if they are both art based.

As for new maps: the problem isn't making them, it's making them worthwhile / actually different and not just effective reskins. It is relatively easy to make a map that looks nice and that plays well, but making it bring something new and meaningful to the game is a whole different ballgame.

[Nik Reaper]

Raggedyman, on 30 June 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

Possibly, though it depends if they have dedicated terrain and mech artists or just a general artist pool. Very different disciplines, even if they are both art based.

As for new maps: the problem isn't making them, it's making them worthwhile / actually different and not just effective reskins. It is relatively easy to make a map that looks nice and that plays well, but making it bring something new and meaningful to the game is a whole different ballgame.

Hm, I still just want a city map that is all city, and mby a small park in the middle, with really tall buildings.

[zagibu]

Yeah, a city center would be awesome.

[Mcgral18]

Ovion, on 30 June 2015 - 05:01 AM, said:

That's a false statement though, as it's not P2W is it - you're starting at a low level effectively, and have to 'level up'.

You don't have to pay for that.

And how is asking how they feel it's Pay to Win (not answered btw) a 'holier than thou' attitude?
That's called discussion.

I concur, the matchmaker and NPE in general needs some work to make it more accessible though.

The gulf between a new and levelled mech is very large, though.

20% better heat capacity, cools 15% faster, agility changes to the degree of 40-50%.

10% faster ground speed.


If you have one of the trial mechs and a mastered version...give them a try when build the same, just to feel the difference (they shouldn't have any efficiencies).



Not P2W...but I don't like killing brand new players in their trial mechs, when my robot is so much better.