180 replies to this topic

[theta123]

One thing i noticed is that, when people discuss IS vs Clan balance, and when the balance is clearly in favour of clantech, they reply 'But Clans are supposed to be stronger, its in the lore"

This behaviour, reminds me of the times i played WW2 games. Often, the germans were clearly better then the allies. In wich people reply= German tanks were supposed to be better, so suck it up

Simular to that situation, Clan players in MWO forget one crucial part about lore= Numbers. Clan mechs, where vastly outnumbered by IS mechs. Sometimes even 5 to 1. And that became even worse for the clans, once the IS began introducing more and more lostech.

But in MWO....We stand always at 12 vs 12. Something wich almost every Online video game has, is equal numbers.
Some advantages are more clear then others. Clans have far better lasers, especially for poking. A IS laser build would be far better in a brawl. Ofcourse we are often forgetting, that this game favours Poking and ranged alpha strikes. And this is where IS clearly loses.

As we go ballistics, well things are better here. Regular Autocannons from IS with their single shell, and the UAC10 and 20 spitting less shells per salvo then their counterparts, at the cost of higher weight and slot requirments.

Gauss wise......Well we can see an obvious clear winner here. Clan gauss rifle is completly superior in every way, then IS. Yeah sure, IS also has Light and heavy gauss rifles. The light gauss rifle, is useless. It weights the same as a clan gauss rifle, deals only 8 damage and has a cooldown of 3.25s compared to 5. Well, that wont out DPM it.
The heavy gauss rifle has potential, but is offset by the inability to divide its crits slots (Remember, a LFE could be used with a HGR) and the limited chassis that support it= Maulers, Nightstar 9p, annihalator 1x and Cyclops hero mech. And while a 50 instant alpha is powerfull, so are the drawbacks. Furthermore, another thing= Clan mechs COME equipped with case with no penalty. IS needs to install CASE with an additional slot and 0.5t weight per gauss rifle if you place it in a side torso. Also meaning= Gauss + XL engine is a death sentence.

Does this mean the Clan gauss rifle needs to be nerfed? Ofcourse not. An increase in health, is a good thing for the IS Gauss rifle. And i think more attention should be spend on the Light gauss and heavy gauss rifle. The light gauss could have a removal of its charge mechanic and up to 3 could be fired at the same time. The heavy gauss could be crit splitted, or if the engine cant handle it= 1 slot removed.

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Really? Clan mechs that can use two:

Ebon Jaguar
Timber Wolf
Executioner
Warhawk
Dire Wolf
Hellbringer with intense armor stripping

IS mechs that can use two:
Jager
K2
King Crab
Cataphract
???

To be fair, you missed NTG/MADIIC/KDK on the clans side

On the IS side you missed RGH/WHM/TNS/CP/MAL/BNC/NSR/ANH

EDIT: Tally: Clans 9 mechs; IS 10 mechs

Edited by Gyrok, 14 December 2017 - 01:45 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Does this mean the Clan gauss rifle needs to be nerfed? Ofcourse not.

I dont agree. it weighs 3 full tons less than IS gauss. of course it should be worse.

But not strictly worse. It should do 12 damage but have longer range and a faster rate of fire. like an efficient streamlined cross between light gauss and std gauss.

light gauss should also do 10 damage instead of 8 damage. still not great but 25% better than it was...

and heavy gauss should be reduced to 22 damage but have its range increased to 570m/1140m

Edited by Khobai, 14 December 2017 - 08:19 PM.

[Grus]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 December 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

I tend to agree. If there is no charge, there is no explosion.

However I will point out that this thread is a couple years old. There is a difference in hit points between Clan and IS gauss. I think if they didn't explode I would be happy.

didnt even notice.. who's the necromancer that cast resurrect?

[Nightmare1]

Grus, on 14 December 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

didnt even notice.. who's the necromancer that cast resurrect?

Sir Immortal Shadow is the witch, burn him!

Spoiler

Sir Immortal Shadow, on 13 December 2017 - 07:16 PM, said:

A few things to bear in mind is how effectively C Gauss pairs with their lasers. The high heat, high damage, long range, and light weight all make their lasers good companions for gauss.
A pair of clan Gauss Rifles + 2 CER or Heavy large lasers is 32 tons before ammo and runs decently cool, has a decent alpha, and you can usuallu slot in extra smaller lasers, targeting computers, ammo, heat sinks.
Two IS Gauss and one ERL laser is 35 and far far weaker a build in general. In fact I don't think any but the heaviest IS mech should ever bring dual gauss because it doesn't leave enough tonnage to work with, which in my opinion is a waste of GRs tiny heat gen.
Other clan weapons have drawbacks to bring them down from vastly superior to fairly superior, whether it's spread, cool down, or heat. The CGR just plain doesn't, and that's on top of having great synergy with other clan weapons (even if clan GRs were 15 tons, they'd still be better indirectly through weapon options). As an IS player I haven't seen an IS gauss build that couldn't be done better with other weapons instead.

[Lunatic NEo]

Its 12vs12 but not 250Tons vs 250Tons.
IS got the advantage and it uses it, not only in FW, also in Scouting. There is no reason for wanting more "balance" then this.

IF we could play 10vs12 it would still be not "fair" cause then you need to buff clans again, and nobody here wants this, am i right?

Btw you cant just balance out weapon per weapon per weapon. If you want this you should play IS vs IS and Clan vs Clan, would just be easier.

Edited by Lunatic NEo, 14 December 2017 - 03:38 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Lunatic NEo, on 14 December 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

Its 12vs12 but not 250Tons vs 250Tons.
IS got the advantage and it uses it, not only in FW, also in Scouting. There is no reason for wanting more "balance" then this.

IF we could play 10vs12 it would still be not "fair" cause then you need to buff clans again, and nobody here wants this, am i right?

Btw you cant just balance out weapon per weapon per weapon. If you want this you should play IS vs IS and Clan vs Clan, would just be easier.

Lunatic NEo, on 14 December 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

Its 12vs12 but not 250Tons vs 250Tons.
IS got the advantage and it uses it, not only in FW, also in Scouting. There is no reason for wanting more "balance" then this.

IF we could play 10vs12 it would still be not "fair" cause then you need to buff clans again, and nobody here wants this, am i right?

Btw you cant just balance out weapon per weapon per weapon. If you want this you should play IS vs IS and Clan vs Clan, would just be easier.

lol

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 14 December 2017 - 01:44 PM, said:

To be fair, you missed NTG/MADIIC/KDK on the clans side

On the IS side you missed RGH/WHM/TNS/CP/MAL/BNC/NSR/ANH

EDIT: Tally: Clans 9 mechs; IS 10 mechs

Sorry I couldn't have predicted the mechs released two and a half years into the future. My bad, Gyrok.

But while we are on this subject, BNC cannot bring dual Gauss. So 9 Clan Mechs and 9 IS mechs.

Except the dual gauss Clan mechs are typically top tier while the IS mechs are not. So the count really doesn't matter.

Edit: OH. Victor can take dual gauss now, therefore IS OP ggclose balance discussion over I guess.


/s

Lunatic NEo, on 14 December 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

Its 12vs12 but not 250Tons vs 250Tons.
IS got the advantage and it uses it, not only in FW, also in Scouting. There is no reason for wanting more "balance" then this.

IF we could play 10vs12 it would still be not "fair" cause then you need to buff clans again, and nobody here wants this, am i right?

Btw you cant just balance out weapon per weapon per weapon. If you want this you should play IS vs IS and Clan vs Clan, would just be easier.

Explain how this balance works in the public queue?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 14 December 2017 - 10:03 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

So weapon balance by Comp, but gauss balance by pub? Umm ok, sure.
So what is it you guys want to have down to C-gauss again? take it's hitpoints down to half to 2.5, increase the 99.9% explosion rate to 142.45%, and give it 22 heat, after we gots all the DHS, right? Might as well, we've got tthat mad crazy dissipation! lol

26 DHS on a 5 ERLL NCAT and the damn thing doesn't give a damn, it runs hot, even with that super crazy Clan DHS derpie duh dissipation. duh. But again, that superior Clan armor saves me when I momentarily peek and my side torso basically gets shorn off. Thank goodness for that stuff. That is some high grade plastic.

Edited by JackalBeast, 14 December 2017 - 07:02 PM.

[Davegt27]

this thread was started in 2015

whole different game back then

[Snazzy Dragon]

Davegt27, on 14 December 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

this thread was started in 2015

whole different game back then

But many of the same balance problems and clan apologists

[Tarogato]

Davegt27, on 14 December 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

this thread was started in 2015

whole different game back then

Still relavant today. Clan Gauss is still usable despite all the nerfs, IS gauss basically isn't worth equipping. Unless you're a Victor or Sleipnir with dual heavy gauss.

[Y E O N N E]

And even then it's still just for the memes.

[Y E O N N E]

JackalBeast, on 14 December 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

26 DHS on a 5 ERLL NCAT and the damn thing doesn't give a damn, it runs hot, even with that super crazy Clan DHS derpie duh dissipation. duh. But again, that superior Clan armor saves me when I momentarily peek and my side torso basically gets shorn off. Thank goodness for that stuff. That is some high grade plastic.

Only 26? Should be able to get 27 using the shoulder mounts, 28 if you put them all in the arms. That said, you say that like it should be anything other than hot. A Warhammer with 5x runs hot, too. Crazy, right?

[Khobai]

NCAT definitely wouldnt be my first choice for ERLL trading though

speed and acceleration are bad, mounts are too low, and 5 CERLL is awkward for ghost heat (firing them 2/2/1 to avoid ghost heat is a lot of facetime)

I think youre much better off with like a 4 ERLL hellbringer or hunchback.

Edited by Khobai, 14 December 2017 - 08:58 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 14 December 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

NCAT definitely wouldnt be my first choice for ERLL trading though

speed and acceleration are bad, mounts are too low, and 5 CERLL is awkward for ghost heat (firing them 2/2/1 to avoid ghost heat is a lot of facetime)

I think youre much better off with like a 4 ERLL hellbringer or hunchback.

Around a corner, it would be passable. Vertically, not so much.

But from a pure heat standpoint...it's nothing out of the ordinary for it to be hot. It should be hot. Every heavy running 5x ERLL is hot.

[Khobai]

Quote

Around a corner, it would be passable. Vertically, not so much.

even around a corner its a bit rough because both arms have to clear the terrain to hit with all 5 lasers.

and with garbage truck accel/decel youll get wrecked doing that in a nova cat.

im not a big fan of the novacat in general, I think the night gyr is just generally better if youre going to play a garbage truck heavy. or hellbringer/hunchie for CERLL builds.

Quote

But from a pure heat standpoint...it's nothing out of the ordinary for it to be hot. It should be hot. Every heavy running 5x ERLL is hot.

Sure. it should run hot. but I dont think clans gain as much by running 5 CERLL because theyre ghost heat limited at 2. And the heat jumps up quite a bit for firing 3 at a time, its like +8 heat or something. ghost heat limit sucks for CERLL. I dont think using more than 4 of them is really practical.

Which is one of the reasons why I want MED and LRG lasers to get linked for ghost heat, so the non-heavy clan LRG lasers can then go upto ghost heat limit of 3 (and the IS LRG lasers can go up to a ghost heat limit of 4).

Edited by Khobai, 14 December 2017 - 09:13 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Zombies can be threads. You should really have started a 2017 version since in 2015 we had no knowledge of 3062 weapons.

Oh yes, remove the apocryphal Gauss charge-up.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 14 December 2017 - 09:00 PM, said:

even around a corner its a bit rough because both arms have to clear the terrain to hit with all 5 lasers.

I was thinking more with the torso mounts, but still somewhat rough.

Quote

and with garbage truck accel/decel youll get wrecked doing that in a nova cat.

The NCT does not have garbage truck agility. Same as most other 70 tonners.

Quote

im not a big fan of the novacat in general, I think the night gyr is just generally better if youre going to play a garbage truck heavy. or hellbringer/hunchie for CERLL builds.

NTG is definitely the better 'Mech. HBR and HBK def better for cERLL.

Quote

Sure. it should run hot. but I dont think clans gain as much by running 5 CERLL because theyre ghost heat limited at 2. And the heat jumps up quite a bit for firing 3 at a time, its like +8 heat or something. ghost heat limit sucks for CERLL. I dont think using more than 4 of them is really practical.

SNVs and MAD IICs run 5-6 cERLL and mass heatsinks so they can eat the ghost heat. That's 28-30 DHS, and they work very well. The NCT above has 27-28 DHS, so it's really not any hotter, just squishier and with meh hardpoint placement.

Quote

Which is one of the reasons why I want MED and LRG lasers to get linked for ghost heat, so the non-heavy clan LRG lasers can then go upto ghost heat limit of 3 (and the IS LRG lasers can go up to a ghost heat limit of 4).

That's a different topic I don't feel like getting into in this thread.

[Gas Guzzler]

JackalBeast, on 14 December 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

So weapon balance by Comp, but gauss balance by pub? Umm ok, sure.

Its more like DON'T balance with faction play but you can completely miss the entire context of my response if you want.

Jesus man.

That was a response to somebody saying "its totally cool Clan mechs are better because IS has more tons to use in faction play, so its fine". Well, if you have the intelligence of an average human being, you should be able to reach the conclusion that in game modes where IS mechs do not naturally get more tonnage (such as public queue AND comp play), this balance doesn't work.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 14 December 2017 - 09:59 PM.