180 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Greenjulius, on 01 July 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

I kind of disagree on the warhawk. It can run dual gauss just like a Cataphract can, only with Clan XL survivability. It's just usually better to run energy on a warhawk because of the outrageous number of forced heatsinks.

Yeah, it does it alright, but 10 completely wasted tons. That's almost a 3rd Rifle in itself.

[Night Thastus]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

You are the one complaining about not having dual gauss Clan mechs. I didn't even complain, I just proposed a balance suggestion. I never asked for more 'Mechs that could mount that in my post.

Move along, I heard someone somewhere might care about what you have to say. Just a rumor though. If you can't dual gauss effectively in a Timber, then I guess you are pretty bad.

You "proposed a balance suggestion" because apparently there several Clan 'Mechs that can effectively Dual Gauss. However, I'm refuting that. I've piloted nearly all of those 'Mechs and I can honestly say only a couple of them are decent at dual Gauss.

That bit with the timber? Are you kidding? Mounting a Gauss in the right arm and right torso? Here's a build using smurfy:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d8185c430a3aa7c

Sure, you have 5 tons of ammo, but you have no backup weapons. If you lose your right torso, your entire mech is useless, it just sits there with no weapons. If you lose your right arm, you now have 50% firepower and some damage from the explosion of the Gauss.

So no, the dual Gauss timber is not effective. Have you ever even piloted one? It's a piece of ****, which is why no-one does, or at least, not for very long.

Edited by Night Thastus, 01 July 2015 - 02:39 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

The whole argument of how many IS mechs mount dual gauss vs how many Clan mechs mount dual gauss is a moot point.

The only mech that actually has a Tier one competition build with dual gauss is the Dire. The other clan mechs don't run dual gauss because they have other loadouts that are better.

The Jager is okay, not really anything special though. I would rather bring a different heavy personally.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

The whole argument of how many IS mechs mount dual gauss vs how many Clan mechs mount dual gauss is a moot point.

The only mech that actually has a Tier one competition build with dual gauss is the Dire. The other clan mechs don't run dual gauss because they have other loadouts that are better.

The Jager is okay, not really anything special though. I would rather bring a different heavy personally.

The thing about the Gauss Jager is that it has mobility comparable to some assaults...so yeah not my cup of tea. I'd rather use the Cauldron Born for that purpose.

[Gas Guzzler]

Night Thastus, on 01 July 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

You "proposed a balance suggestion" because apparently there several Clan 'Mechs that can effectively Dual Gauss. However, I'm refuting that. I've piloted nearly all of those 'Mechs and I can honestly say only a couple of them are decent at dual Gauss.

That bit with the timber? Are you kidding? Mounting a Gauss in the right arm and right torso? Here's a build using smurfy:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d8185c430a3aa7c

Sure, you have 5 tons of ammo, but you have no backup weapons. If you lose your right torso, your entire mech is useless, it just sits there with no weapons. If you lose your right arm, you now have 50% firepower and some damage from the explosion of the Gauss.

So no, the dual Gauss timber is not effective. Have you ever even piloted one? It's a piece of ****, which is why no-one does, or at least, not for very long.

My initial post had nothing to do with how many mechs mount dual gauss. Someone came in and said "There are more IS mechs that can run dual gauss than Clan mechs." And I refuted that.

I have piloted one, its a ball actually until you run out of ammo but there are better Timber Wolf builds, that is why no one runs it. Honestly though, the agility at 90 kph with JJs and dual gauss is just super fun and effective as long as the match isn't too drawn out.

The Ebon Jag can do it with 6 tons of ammo and only a stripped left arm, but the builds incorporating lasers are better so no one uses that.

The Jagermech's only good builds are dual gauss or dual AC20, or the triple UAC5. None of them I would consider tier one.

The only tier 1 dual Gauss mech is the Dire. If you aren't in a Dire, you could have a better build with a single Gauss and lasers. That's why the dual Gauss argument (how many mechs CAN run dual Gauss) is stupid and should not be the basis of balance decisions regarding the Gauss rifle.

I just had an idea that I felt would not really change gameplay for Clanners but would help certain IS mechs be less fragile. At the end of the day I just want more mechs to be viable, but if you don't want that then **** it I don't care, I can run a Timber/Ebon/Hbr whenever I want.

[Aim64C]

Frankly, I'm more of the opinion that the Inner Sphere weapon systems should reflect the nature of the Inner Sphere with is many diverse weapon manufacturers that build weapons falling into generic classes.

Particularly in the early lore, a lot of battlemechs were noted with what -type- of weapon system they were using and the game simply tried to lump them into general classes to reflect the general design objectives of the weapon.

It would be more interesting, in my opinion, if Inner Sphere weapons came with more 'flavor.' Some manufacturers being able to shave off a critical slot, some being able to extend range, others improving recycle times - perhaps some producing 'armored' components that have double the durability of other market competitors.

Of course... with the balance issues the game has at present - throwing in even more squirrels to chase is probably a bad idea.

The Clans, being uber-socialists, get their factory-stamped AK that benefits from 200 years of not-lost-tech.

[Mcgral18]

The question is: what do you raise it to?

Under 10? It'll go just as fast as it does now. Arty, Air, AC10, PPC, Gauss, they'll all blow it up with a single crit.

Over 10? Suddenly more durable than anything other than an AC20. 3 is low, but under 10 doesn't change much.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 01 July 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

The question is: what do you raise it to?

Under 10? It'll go just as fast as it does now. Arty, Air, AC10, PPC, Gauss, they'll all blow it up with a single crit.

Over 10? Suddenly more durable than anything other than an AC20. 3 is low, but under 10 doesn't change much.

Yeah, I dunno. A little? Its not supposed to change that much, just means if it gets breathed on by something other than what you listed above it won't explode.

And then lowering the damage done from 20 to 10-15 would probably make the bigger difference...

[Nightmare1]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

So as we all know aside from weighing 3 tons more the IS Gauss behaves exactly like the Clan Gauss. Otherwise, they are exactly the same. What if PGI raised IS gauss hitpoints and lowered its explosion damage a little bit? Or maybe just one or the other. Rationale is the extra 3 tons is used to aid in weapon shielding/explosion containment. Clans stripped it because their XLs aren't so fragile, and something something.

Its a slight buff that makes putting Gauss in IS XL side torsos not so suicidal, but will be far from game breaking as it literally behaves the same as the Clan Gauss otherwise.

I think its fair... doesn't involve neutering the Clan Gauss at all..

...Except there's no reason to do this? Clan Tech is supposed to be superior; boasting 3 tons less weight barely constitutes this.

Gauss is fine as it is; there's no need to touch it for either faction and for any reason.

[Hit the Deck]

@ Mcgral and Gaz

Well, there are still lasers, missiles, cERPPC, MG, Flamers, etc. that do relatively small increments of damage so raising the HP not more than 10 should be meaningful.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 01 July 2015 - 03:11 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightmare1, on 01 July 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

...Except there's no reason to do this? Clan Tech is supposed to be superior; boasting 3 tons less weight barely constitutes this.

Gauss is fine as it is; there's no need to touch it for either faction and for any reason.

My reasons for doing this are

CTF-0XP
CTF-1X
CTF-2X
Orions
Maulers
La Malinche

Having a 3 ton premium over the Clan Gauss seemed like it could be a reason to make the IS version a little less fragile to help these mechs that would love to have Gauss Rifles in their torsos whilst running an XL engine.

Except for the Orions, there is really no saving them anyway.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 01 July 2015 - 03:14 PM.

[Nightmare1]

While I agree that Gauss shouldn't be so fragile, I'm in favor of a health buff for both the IS and the Clans. In my opinion, given how slim the superiority of the Clan Gauss is compared to the IS, I am against anything that may lessen that superiority. It's an indirect, round-a-bout way to nerf the Clans by narrowing the gap between them and the IS.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightmare1, on 01 July 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

While I agree that Gauss shouldn't be so fragile, I'm in favor of a health buff for both the IS and the Clans. In my opinion, given how slim the superiority of the Clan Gauss is compared to the IS, I am against anything that may lessen that superiority. It's an indirect, round-a-bout way to nerf the Clans by narrowing the gap between them and the IS.

I'm okay with that too!

[Kiiyor]

Water Bear, on 01 July 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Wut? Mechs such as the Dire Wolf, Timber, that new crouchy thing...?

+1 for new crouchy thing. First sensible chuckle of the day.

[YueFei]

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 July 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

I use Gauss without using XLs, but then again, I personally consider anyone running IS XLs in Heavys or Assault a freaking moron, so what do I know? Risk vs Reward, with IS XL, the risk is simply far to high in the big Mechs. My dual Gauss Jager does just fine with a standard engine, CASE and some Meds on it.

I'm not sure you need CASE on your Gauss Jager. You put one CASE into each side-torso? The Gauss explosion does 20 damage, and you have Gauss in your arms, which have 20 hitpoints. By the time someone breaches your armor and blows up your Gauss, it'll take your arm with it (but you have nothing else in the arms besides Gauss anyway), and any left-over damage will get halved before transfering to your ST. Since you have a STD engine anyways, the only thing that damage spill-over can hurt would be your Medium laser in the ST, which has 10 health, but the damage spill-over will always be less than 10 since some of the 20 damage from the Gauss explosion must go towards blowing-out the arm's internal structure hitpoints.

For example, if your arm armor is breached, and you take 10 damage to the arm's internal structure which crits the Gauss and explodes it, it will deal 20 damage..... 10 damage will be subtracted from your arm's remaining internal structure, with 10 remaining. That 10 will be halved to 5, and transfered to your adjacent side-torso. Your side torso has 37 hitpoints, so it'll go down to 32. I'm not sure if damage transfer can also crit, but even if it can, that's 5 damage at most delivered to your Medium Laser, so it won't be destroyed. Not that CASE would stop the Gauss blast from destroying your side torso anyways, since it would only stop it from going into your CT.

Unless I got some info wrong, I think the conclusion based on this is that you can forgo the CASE in your side torsos for your Dual-Gauss Jager. Drop both CASEs, save 1 ton, use it to add ammunition or put armor back on (if you stripped any).

[Zordicron]

You can't look at IS vs Clan weapons in a vacuum spreadsheet warriors.

One has to look at the mechs that can mount it, the drawbacks, the support weapons and even the other options for each mech.

Just reminds me too much of the clan ERML=IS ML arguments, its absurd.

IMO, I don;t think they need to worry about the two gauss unless they want to introduce mixed tech loadouts to MWO. In a case like that, some kind of "flavor" would need to be introduced. Until then, there are bigger fish to fry.

[Mcgral18]

YueFei, on 01 July 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

I'm not sure you need CASE on your Gauss Jager. You put one CASE into each side-torso? The Gauss explosion does 20 damage, and you have Gauss in your arms, which have 20 hitpoints. By the time someone breaches your armor and blows up your Gauss, it'll take your arm with it (but you have nothing else in the arms besides Gauss anyway), and any left-over damage will get halved before transfering to your ST. Since you have a STD engine anyways, the only thing that damage spill-over can hurt would be your Medium laser in the ST, which has 10 health, but the damage spill-over will always be less than 10 since some of the 20 damage from the Gauss explosion must go towards blowing-out the arm's internal structure hitpoints.

For example, if your arm armor is breached, and you take 10 damage to the arm's internal structure which crits the Gauss and explodes it, it will deal 20 damage..... 10 damage will be subtracted from your arm's remaining internal structure, with 10 remaining. That 10 will be halved to 5, and transfered to your adjacent side-torso. Your side torso has 37 hitpoints, so it'll go down to 32. I'm not sure if damage transfer can also crit, but even if it can, that's 5 damage at most delivered to your Medium Laser, so it won't be destroyed. Not that CASE would stop the Gauss blast from destroying your side torso anyways, since it would only stop it from going into your CT.

Unless I got some info wrong, I think the conclusion based on this is that you can forgo the CASE in your side torsos for your Dual-Gauss Jager. Drop both CASEs, save 1 ton, use it to add ammunition or put armor back on (if you stripped any).

Explosion damage doesn't get halved, to my knowledge, only weapon damage.


Still won't kill in most cases.

Edited by Mcgral18, 01 July 2015 - 04:12 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

YueFei, it's more of a 'just in case' thing with the CASE really. I've had those damn Gauss go up and take the side torsos with them, despite the numbers showing it shouldn't do that. I personally think Gauss explosions MIGHT get criticals sometimes, that's all I can think of to explain that happening. It would fit with how we're discovering criticals work, so I'm going to go with that for the time being.

I actually don't even use my Jager anymore, my King Crab carries those dual Gauss so much better AND packs serious back up weaponry

[InspectorG]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Really? Clan mechs that can use two:

Ebon Jaguar
Timber Wolf
Executioner
Warhawk
Dire Wolf
Hellbringer with intense armor stripping

IS mechs that can use two:
Jager
K2
King Crab
Cataphract
???

And how many of the Clan mechs have good hardpoints to really use them???

[Deathlike]

Eldagore, on 01 July 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

You can't look at IS vs Clan weapons in a vacuum spreadsheet warriors.

One has to look at the mechs that can mount it, the drawbacks, the support weapons and even the other options for each mech.

Just reminds me too much of the clan ERML=IS ML arguments, its absurd.

IMO, I don;t think they need to worry about the two gauss unless they want to introduce mixed tech loadouts to MWO. In a case like that, some kind of "flavor" would need to be introduced. Until then, there are bigger fish to fry.

Once you start having Clan Battlemechs, tonnage becomes a far less concern. Clan Omnimechs suffer from tonnage deprivation so that limits build diversity, though not lacking in hardpoints (generally speaking).

Suddenly these issues get more amplified, just like Clan XL over IS XL.

This is why you need to balance the tech a bit more (more refinements).

Edited by Deathlike, 01 July 2015 - 04:27 PM.