180 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

Mcgral18, on 01 July 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

Yeah, it does it alright, but 10 completely wasted tons. That's almost a 3rd Rifle in itself.

Coldest Dual Gauss in the Sphere.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

Clan mechs have lighter weapons due to higher tech, IS have chunkier heavy weapons due to a lower tech level. Balance should not and does not need to be achieved here. Unless the PGI game stats show a vast number of IS mechs being gunned down by Dual Gauss Clan mechs and few Clan mechs being gunned down by the Dual IS machines.
Whats the bet more IS are effectively fielding Gauss than Clan at this point?

Edited by Keira RAVEN McKenna, 01 July 2015 - 04:35 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Keira RAVEN McKenna, on 01 July 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

Clan mechs have lighter weapons due to higher tech, IS have chunkier heavy weapons due to a lower tech level. Balance should not and does not need to be achieved here.

Lore is not sufficient reason for any sort of balancing decision.

[Armorine]

Y'all are hilarious. Could whine about anyThing. Clam weapons are light for a reason. If they were heavier a lot of stock builds would be broken. I play inner sphere only in cw and I'm perfectly happy with how things are balanced. Clan mechs run hot, shut downs are always a panic shot away. I can't imagine the QQing that will ensue when they introduce inferno missiles...... And y'all will prolly complain about that too. They are too volatile, they are too hot, why are they so heavy make them lighter! I know why paul sticks to twitter.

[Gas Guzzler]

Armorine, on 01 July 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

Y'all are hilarious. Could whine about anyThing. Clam weapons are light for a reason. If they were heavier a lot of stock builds would be broken. I play inner sphere only in cw and I'm perfectly happy with how things are balanced. Clan mechs run hot, shut downs are always a panic shot away. I can't imagine the QQing that will ensue when they introduce inferno missiles...... And y'all will prolly complain about that too. They are too volatile, they are too hot, why are they so heavy make them lighter! I know why paul sticks to twitter.

There is no whining here buddy. I had a thought that might balance the weapons. People can propose thoughts to discuss without whining.

[DivineEvil]

Armorine, on 01 July 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

Y'all are hilarious. Could whine about anyThing.

Whining is complaining based on personal failures. It has nothing to do with actual balance nuances and corresponding claims.

Quote

Clam weapons are light for a reason. If they were heavier a lot of stock builds would be broken. I play inner sphere only in cw and I'm perfectly happy with how things are balanced.

Your personal experience alone do not hold much value in discussions like this.

Quote

Clan mechs run hot, shut downs are always a panic shot away. I can't imagine the QQing that will ensue when they introduce inferno missiles...... And y'all will prolly complain about that too. They are too volatile, they are too hot, why are they so heavy make them lighter! I know why paul sticks to twitter.

Probably to avoid unjustified babbling without arguments like the one you're currently producing. Jokes aside, he already pointed out, that he finds it easier to use, nothing else.

On a topic, following the thend with other Clan weapons, it might be enough to increase Clan-Gauss pre-firing delay reasonably to give skilled IS players a way to fight against them. Changing any other stats most likely going to break the weapon. Clans already stick to camping and poking way too much, and having such a powerful weapon without any negatives compensating for less tonnage requirements, already has an effect on the game, especially CW. I saw even some competetive units running full-Gauss drop-deck and basically mowing down entire waves of IS mechs, without any imaginable ways to fight back.

Edited by DivineEvil, 01 July 2015 - 07:19 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Like the Inner Sphere standard should get give it more durability in exchange for the extra slots it takes and the heavier wieght. Simple.

Add gauss auto fire after charge up toggle for all guass rifles.

[Aim64C]

DivineEvil, on 01 July 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

On a topic, following the thend with other Clan weapons, it might be enough to increase Clan-Gauss pre-firing delay reasonably to give skilled IS players a way to fight against them. Changing any other stats most likely going to break the weapon. Clans already stick to camping and poking way too much, and having such a powerful weapon without any negatives compensating for less tonnage requirements, already has an effect on the game, especially CW. I saw even some competetive units running full-Gauss drop-deck and basically mowing down entire waves of IS mechs, without any imaginable ways to fight back.

I've noticed that I get pelted with gauss rounds far more frequently lately than I ever used to. I know the enemy is asleep if I make it more than 500 meters from my drop point without hearing something clunk off of my armor.

I know I'm exaggerating in the case of some maps - but on maps like Canyon Network, the game often goes to whomever has the Dire-Gauss sitting in the back and pelting anything in view.

"Alright, let's take a look and *Clunk-Clunk-Clunk* ... God damn! How many of gauss boats do they have over there?"

It would be so awesome if we could call in rotary wing support. While their team is migrating to the opposite side of the map, a storm of helicopters comes over the horizon to give him something else to think about. At least make them draw their weapons away long enough to consider spending ammo against something that isn't the armor of the team.

[Lexx]

I like this idea.

I was thinking they should increase the chargeup time on the clan gauss, since it's better in every way over the IS version.

Since players hate nerfs and love buffs, your idea is actually better.

I bought a Grid Iron during the sale and I would love to be able to use an XL engine without the gauss turning it into a death trap.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Well, I like the idea of improving how item HP is handled for all gear.

It can be argued that the bulkier IS materials are more durable than Clan when it comes to combat stresses, that the Clans choose to live with. Which can translate to more item HP for IS.

This way IS is tried and true durability from centuries of combat, while Clan is high-tech and light-weight, but also more fragile, coming from the realm of trials of combat and different tech infrastructure.

And lore-wise this can be a reason why Clan tech seems so exotic compared to centuries of battled tested IS gear, and why it takes the IS so long to adapt Clan tech.

---

With Gauss in particular, there are a few other important variables to consider tweaking, one with the charge mechanic (First is how long it takes to charge and second is how long the charge lasts.), cooldown and also velocity are others that can be changed on one of them, between Clan and IS.

Tangent contained is spoiler

Spoiler

So depending on what is considered harder regarding the charge mechanic, either IS or Clan can see tweaks there. So one variant can keep the current charge settings and then the other is ether made harder or easier to use.

And I can also easily see a variation in cooldown and also projectile velocity be possible when comparing the two against each other, depending on what other variables get modified.

The intent of any changes is to sustain good performance from both of these variants, like say keep the base 3.75 (3.16) DPS, but also make them different in the process.

So, for example, here's what I'd consider for a starting point for discussion:

IS-Gauss:
increased item HP,
reduced velocity (1650 m/s),
current (or reduced) cooldown (less than 4.00 to maintain or even increase DPS),
easier (or default) charge mechanic.

Clan-Gauss:
default (current) item HP (5 HP),
reduced velocity (1800 m/s),
increased cooldown (4.00 or higher to maintain or even decrease DPS),
default (or harder) charge mechanic

Another element is even consider reducing damage per projectile on one of them, while keeping DPS and damage per ton of ammo the same, to than keep or adjust other variables. For example to keep 2,000 m/s velocity than consider having 12 damage per projectile along with other modifications to keep damage per ton of ammo, and say DPS the same with a shorter cooldown.

[kapusta11]

So funny to watch clan fanboys and their lousy arguments: "But we can't use dual gauss effectively, we don't have this Cataphract mech with lol-low-slung weapon mounts an fragile XL engine, or this oversized Catapult, a walking CT basically, or this Jagermech and its XL sides that you can hit from any angle. We have no other choice but to use crappy Gauss & laser combo."

[Joseph Mallan]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

So as we all know aside from weighing 3 tons more the IS Gauss behaves exactly like the Clan Gauss. Otherwise, they are exactly the same. What if PGI raised IS gauss hitpoints and lowered its explosion damage a little bit? Or maybe just one or the other. Rationale is the extra 3 tons is used to aid in weapon shielding/explosion containment. Clans stripped it because their XLs aren't so fragile, and something something.

Its a slight buff that makes putting Gauss in IS XL side torsos not so suicidal, but will be far from game breaking as it literally behaves the same as the Clan Gauss otherwise.

I think its fair... doesn't involve neutering the Clan Gauss at all..

Yes the less developed weapon should be more robust than the one that has never stopped production or refinement. Can we stop trying to make the IS equal to the Clans. Please? I want to fight a foe that is hard to beat.

[SaltBeef]

Come on Joseph

Trolls will be Trolls!

[MeiSooHaityu]

This is the one weapon that PGI just made flat out better for the clans. There is no trade-off like other weapons, just the Clan gauss is straight up better.

Ok, how do we change this :/

Maybe clan Gauss gets a longer cool down? *shrug*

[Joseph Mallan]

Why do we always have to Nerf teh Clans? They didn't have a tech stone age like the IS did. Why can't they have good things???

[MeiSooHaityu]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 July 2015 - 02:28 AM, said:

Why do we always have to Nerf teh Clans? They didn't have a tech stone age like the IS did. Why can't they have good things???

The game wasn't designed around that philosophy. It was designed around different but equal performing tech. That is why the Clans cannot have drastically superior tech.

Not saying it is right or wrong, just the framework established for this game.

In Single Player games it is easier. You just sell your IS mechs and weapons (because it is inferior) for the Clan versions and move on.

In a game like MWO where ideally PGI wants to keep selling both Clan and IS mechs equally for income and have them both roughly the same population of players, the old philosophy isn't that easy to implement.

I'm guessing that if a standalone single player MechWarrior game ever happens again, you will have the same old formula of sell IS mechs for Clan mechs and race to an Assault mech as fast as you can.

As much I love MechWarrior titles, there has never been a place for IS tech and lighter mechs were always a delay tactic to prevent the player from buying an Assault early in the game. In that way older games were always very flawed.

[Wronka]

Yeah I never quite understood why the clan gauss got to be better at absolutely no downside.

[Gas Guzzler]

Joseph, the same could be said about all Clan lasers. If they are newer tech why make them have longer burn times? Based on your post, you don't really care about competitive balance and are happy to see comp matches made up of primarily Clan mechs. That's fine, but this is not the thread you are looking for.


Guys wanting to nerf Clan Gauss: No, let's not do that. I think making the IS version a little more robust is more acceptable. If I were a Clanner (and I do use Clan mechs frequently) I would be more opposed to a cooldown increase than a increase in HP a decrease in explosion damage to the IS version.

[Roadkill]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 July 2015 - 02:28 AM, said:

Why do we always have to Nerf teh Clans? They didn't have a tech stone age like the IS did. Why can't they have good things???

Because this is an online shooter, not table top, and all of the Mechs need to be reasonably well balanced.

There are very few people like you, Joe. If the Clans were as OP as they are in TT, virtually no one would play Inner Sphere.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Really, I'm not that worried about the gauss anyway (hence the *shrug* earlier). It doesn't bother me an I'm pretty indifferent.

Both are very long range anyway so a clan advantage in range feels negligible. The clan version is lighter and less crits, but clans often deal with more locked equipment that takes up crit space and tonnage. If the weapon was larger or heavier, it probably couldn't be equipped the same way (or at all) in some clan mechs.

I wouldn't be against a small IS buff instead, but again, I don't really feel strongly about the gauss one way or the other.