129 replies to this topic

[Lordred]

Just gonna leave this here. some people disagree with me, but this is what I would love to try with weapon ballance, just to see what happens.

The following table assumes you keep fire durations and burst fire mode for Clan UACs, though I would be find with Clan AC's working like IS AC's if they changed the damage model to this. and cooldowns the same except for missiles.

Edited by Lordred, 02 July 2015 - 06:16 AM.

[Chemie]

Buy them now plz...PGI will decide how and when to nerf to nothing after payments. I would not expect any answers on balance of iic until just before or more likely just after release. Until then, please pay up.

[AEgg]

If you want to balance IS with clan weapons directly, you better let clan mechs change their engine, FF, Endo, JJs, and locked heatsinks, as well.

In which case, why have two factions at all?

Clan equipment should be slightly more powerful than IS equipment, at the cost of not having as much customization on the chassis.

At least, that's the entire premise that PGI has taken with balancing it so far, and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it. The only concern are the few mechs (basically stormcrow and timberwolf and that's it) that have a mostly-optimal setup without any customization, and those exceptions to the rule should be handled with negative quirks.

[Johnny Z]

AEgg, on 02 July 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

If you want to balance IS with clan weapons directly, you better let clan mechs change their engine, FF, Endo, JJs, and locked heatsinks, as well.

In which case, why have two factions at all?

Clan equipment should be slightly more powerful than IS equipment, at the cost of not having as much customization on the chassis.

At least, that's the entire premise that PGI has taken with balancing it so far, and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it. The only concern are the few mechs (basically stormcrow and timberwolf and that's it) that have a mostly-optimal setup without any customization, and those exceptions to the rule should be handled with negative quirks.

Sure sounds fair. Then make Omni heat sinks take up 3 slots, endo and ferro same stats as Inner Sphere, Omni XL blows on side torso loss. Think the weapons and tech are balanced now really? If they balance weapon performance they should balance everything else to?

The only thing balancing these many ignored but massive Omni tech advanatges is the fact that the builds cannot be changed. Want to change builds make all the equipment equal.

Why have 2 factions at all if one is clearly easier than the other.

Negative quirks should balance clearly OP mechs for either tech.

Edited by Johnny Z, 02 July 2015 - 06:34 AM.

[AEgg]

Johnny Z, on 02 July 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

Sure sounds fair. Then make Omni heat sinks take up 3 slots, endo and ferro same stats as Inner Sphere, Omni XL blows on side torso loss. Think the weapons and tech are balanced now really? If they balance weapon performance they should balance everything else to?

My point is that it would be dumb to make everything equivalent.

Leave clan mechs with limited customization. You're forced into an engine that's either too big or too small, stuck with Ferro instead of Endo, and/or stuck with locked heatsinks in the wrong place. For those drawbacks, you get better weapons.

The few clan mechs that have the "right" engine, structure, armor type, and heasink layout should get negative quirks (since otherwise they'd have the plus of better weapons without the downside of no customization).

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 July 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

I kinda figured that but wanted to try the joke out anyway.

Meh! I'm too distracted (aka. excited) right now to have noticed the joke ...



with the exception of the "I hate to go!" part, of course.

Edited by Mystere, 02 July 2015 - 06:34 AM.

[Greenjulius]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 July 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

I kinda figured that but wanted to try the joke out anyway.

Joseph, I just noticed you are quoting my AS7-S comment in your sig. I Lol'd.

[Johnny Z]

AEgg, on 02 July 2015 - 06:33 AM, said:

My point is that it would be dumb to make everything equivalent.

Leave clan mechs with limited customization. You're forced into an engine that's either too big or too small, stuck with Ferro instead of Endo, and/or stuck with locked heatsinks in the wrong place. For those drawbacks, you get better weapons.

The few clan mechs that have the "right" engine, structure, armor type, and heasink layout should get negative quirks (since otherwise they'd have the plus of better weapons without the downside of no customization).

Well the techs will be very different in performance and appearance even if they are balanced. I agree having different character for the 2 techs is utmost importance and losing that character would make the game suck more.

MMORPGS weapon difference is based on appearance only really for example since players cant really miss or use cover much, targeting systems, counters like ams and ecm multiple hit boxes, speeds etc etc. Range and stealth being some of the few actual factors. There are similarities but Mechwarrior Online game offers a WAY WAY superior sim. Even MMORPG's should be balanced even if they arent most of the time...

Balance in 99% of shooters is relegated to who shoots first..... which would be more realistic for the most part if it wasnt hit scan....

The recent mention of very weak stealth mechanics in mechwarrior online is interestingand should be considered for extremely light scout mechs again only if its a weaker stealth. This would in fact be realistic since real life stealth planes for example dont really have stealth but cut down on the range of detection and time in some ways.

Edited by Johnny Z, 02 July 2015 - 06:55 AM.

[WarHippy]

NeoAres, on 01 July 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

That's basically the analogy I have for what I'm trying to say regarding Clan vs. IS balance. With the impending entry of clan 2nd line mechs, IS pilots are already QQing about the combination of clan technology with the freedom of IS mechbuilding styles. And sadly enough, they are correct. The clan omnimechs' build limitations are a crutch upon which PGI has been leaning because of their imperfect job balancing clan tech to IS tech. With the advent of clan 2nd line mechs, that crutch will disappear. It's time to make the proverbial punishment fit the crime, which is to say, it's time to finish balancing clan and IS tech on a part-by-part level.

It begins with weapons. All clan weapons that have IS counterparts boast some combination of lighter weight, smaller size, greater range, and greater power. Many of them have already been balanced properly, usually by increasing firing duration and/or damage spread. However, a small number of clan weapons inexplicably still retain their advantages without any balacing feature, forcing PGI to compensate by nerfing the clans (or quirking the IS) in other ways--short-sighted idea to say the least. Here's a list of clan weapons, equipment, and mech features that require a balancing nerf in order to take this burden off of the clan mechs.
*C-Gauss: It is identical to the IS version but 3 tons lighter. Easy fix--lower its slug velocity by 25%.
*C-ERPPC: Though its power has been artifically reduced to match the IS version, it is still smaller and lighter. Unfortunately, I wouldn't dare lowering its velocity any more than it already has been so this one requires a more original solution. I propose a small spread-over-range effect to the clan PPC (effectively turning it into an energy LBX).
*C-SRM: Same stats as IS versions but half the weight. I would balance them by making them stream out of the launcher like clan LRMs do.
*C-SSRM: Same problem as SRM, same fix as well. Make the missiles stream.
*C-LBX: A slight boost to the IS LBX10's critical hit buff would do the trick.
*C-Narc: A reduction in effect time would do the trick.
*C-MG: Just like with the LBX, increase the IS version's critical hit buff
*C-Flamer: (as if it was useful, but just to be fair) Increased heat generation, just like every other clan energy weapon.

Next come electronics and accessories...
*C-ECM: lighter and smaller than IS version. Balance by removing counter mode.
*CAP: lighter and smaller than IS version. Balance by removing target info gathering buff.
*C-Double Heatsinks: smaller than IS version. Balance by reducing component health so they're easier to destroy with critical hits.

And finally the mechs themselves...
*C-XL Engines: Smaller and less vulnerable than IS versions. Balance by exacting a 20% reduction in internal structure to the torsoes of any mech using one.
*Endosteel: Half the slot size of IS version. Balance by exacting a 10% reduction in internal structure to any mech using it.
*Ferro Fibrous: Half the slot size of IS version. Balance by exacting a 10% debuff to critical defense to any mech using it.
*C-CASE: included free on clan mechs. Balance with a small decrease to component health for all clan ammo bins and c-gauss rifles.

Now can the clans have their lower arm actuators back when using PPCs/ballistics? That's just one example of a silly, arbitrary clan nerf in the current system (oversized clan chassis, silly omnipod hardpoints, and overzealous IS mech quirks are other notable ones). By keeping balancing features properly compartmentalized instead of ridiculously arbitrary, we can actually achieve some semblance of balance in the present without us or PGI having to worry about the effect of new content in the future (like, say, the the Blood Asp).

I'm generally a pretty calm person, and right now I'm trying to picture a happy place, but all I am feeling right now is a severe headache caused by the shear stupidity of your suggestions. Please, for your own safety don't walk into and dark alleys because I don't think you will be coming out afterward.

Edited by WarHippy, 02 July 2015 - 06:56 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

First off, to everyone referencing the upcoming balance changes, did you LISTEN to what Russ actually said in the Town Hall or are you just repeating what someone else told you he said? To me it sounds like the second, not the first.

Balance will be looked at again based on an In House Value system based on the physical properties of the Mech, hit box locations, hit box sizes, hard point locations, hard point sizes, agility properties(twist amount/speed, turn speed, acel/decel) and then adding in the various weapons and other systems that complete a Mech, in other words an incredibly complex and far more complete BV than anything done in TT.

THAT system will be used to determine tiers and quirks. That's it boys and girls, they aren't redoing weapon balance in the way you keep referring to, they are rebalancing the MECHS via tier and quirks. Which is a good thing, as many of the OLD Tier 1 Mechs aren't even Tier 5 now and some of the old Tier 3s are now Tier 1, etc. But changing how weapons work, adding/removing hardpoints, no, that's not what Russ talked about at all, he was clear, Tiers and quirks will be changed based on the new inhouse BV system that we won't be given access too. Combined with the HSR fixes coming next week, this could well be a great thing, or it could be a horrible thing, it's PGI, I reserve the right to hold judgement until they get it all done because, well, it's PGI and we know they can totally screw it up.

Weapon balance, well, we'll see if they get around to redoing it, which they should once the HSR fixes are in place, which I've been saying all along as Paul went and mucked things up left and right without proper data...ugh...that'll mean a lot of changes I foresee, and many people will NOT be happy when that happens.

IIC Mechs, OP as shown currently, since we've been told, by Russ in the Town Hall, that they can swap engines, ES/FF/JJ, and so on, they are customizable EXACTLY like IS BattleMechs are, they just happen to use all Clan Tech. That's not guesswork or supposition, Russ told us this information. The IIC Mechs would be fine IF they hadn't inflated the hardpoints by twice or more, but that is exactly what PGI did, so we'll just have to wait and see. Personally, I find the Jenner extremely worrisome due to the extreme missile hardpoints it was given, that's just stupid, since the Clan SRMs are half the weight, you can literally fit 2x the SRMs weightwise AND they gave you the hardpoints to do it! Think an Oxide is annoying? Try an Oxide with 2x the SRMs and a Clan XL, so blowing HALF the Mech off doesn't stop it like it does with an Oxide..and it has JJ! The others, well, they have the POTENTIAL to be OP due the inflated hardpoints, but we'll just have to wait and see, since outside the Hunch, the Orion and Highlander really aren't considered viable as they stand as IS Mechs(I don't actually agree with that, but hey, I think the pilot is a very overlooked factor in Mech usefulness). I personally want them but as they stand on the IIC page right now, I would feel VERY dirty getting them, but Aleksandr drove an Orion and...*sigh*..yeah, I'll probably get them and live with the guilt. I only play IS in CW, so I'll only use them in PUGlandia, and I really don't feel bad about what I do there

As to the whole IS vs Clan balance thing, I'm on the record, and shall stay on it, as saying the game is currently at parity, it is not a given that Clan is an autowin or that IS is an autoloss. We see this in CW, which is the arena where we see Clan vs IS currently. 12 man pug last night as IS facing a 12 man SWoL Wolf unit, we stomped them. 12 man pug IS facing -MS- as Clan, WE were the stomped party(DAMN fun fight even so, I salute -MS-, no bs from them, no hazing, just really good fighting, honorable foes, and actually a pleasure to see them in action!), later on another IS PUG vs a Clan PUG, Clan got stomped. It's NOT the Mechs that are making the difference, it's the pilots and their teamwork or lack thereof that make the difference when it's Clan vs IS. That is parity folks, it's actually pretty damn good right now and there's NO NEED to muck it up.

That'll happen next week after the HSR fixes go in, or maybe it won't, we don't know because right now we actually have no clue how many shots hit/miss based on HSR issues, but we'll be finding out. For now, IS vs Clan, parity has actually been attained. Clans have some awesome Mechs, the Timby and Scrow are still top of the line, but they are NOT so OP that they automatically give a win to their pilots, and that's good.

[Almond Brown]

beleneagle, on 01 July 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

Has everybody forgotten that Russ said that the game is getting completely re-balanced here in what August if I remember right?

That will just preserve those things "we" had before the great "Steam" uprising.

At least "we" will be able to say, "remember when?" when the Steamers start crapping on the new to them "balance" as they see it. LOL

Just for giggles. Name one Online Game that is "asymmetric" in nature and has completely stopped "balancing" that game more than >1 year ago?

StarCraft is still being "balanced" ffs and it is what, >15 (17 to be exact) years old.

[Almond Brown]

Andi Nagasia, on 01 July 2015 - 07:29 PM, said:

if we are on the "Clan Weapons Still OP" Kick,
then can i trade out my C-ER-ML for some IS-ML Love on my Nova?

To what benefit? CerML has more range 405m vs 270m, better damage per heat ratio , IS 1.25, Clan 1.17, same GH levels (7) and a "slightly" longer burn time, .9 to 1.15.

Not sure why your trading... 60 Alpha, for 84 Alpha when a little fire discipline (7 + 5) negates the added Heat of a FULL 12 Laser alpha.

[Aim64C]

Almond Brown, on 02 July 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

Just for giggles. Name one Online Game that is "asymmetric" in nature and has completely stopped "balancing" that game more than >1 year ago?

Command&Conquer: Renegade.

Granted, there was a bit more symmetry, there, than something as stark as the Clans and the Inner Sphere - but it wasn't exactly symmetric, either.

They were done with balance passes on that long before game spy closed its doors, and the base game was quite active well into 2010, outliving Game Spy.

[Almond Brown]

Aim64C, on 02 July 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

Command&Conquer: Renegade.

Granted, there was a bit more symmetry, there, than something as stark as the Clans and the Inner Sphere - but it wasn't exactly symmetric, either.

They were done with balance passes on that long before game spy closed its doors, and the base game was quite active well into 2010, outliving Game Spy.

So in reality they stopped working on that game prior to its end then?

Well damn. Can we come back to MWO in 15 years and 9 iterations later and see how its Balance is then? Seems only fair right.

[Aresye]

AEgg, on 02 July 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

If you want to balance IS with clan weapons directly, you better let clan mechs change their engine, FF, Endo, JJs, and locked heatsinks, as well.

In which case, why have two factions at all?

Clan equipment should be slightly more powerful than IS equipment, at the cost of not having as much customization on the chassis.

At least, that's the entire premise that PGI has taken with balancing it so far, and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it. The only concern are the few mechs (basically stormcrow and timberwolf and that's it) that have a mostly-optimal setup without any customization, and those exceptions to the rule should be handled with negative quirks.

I say they should temporarily balance everything perfectly 50:50. All IS and Clan weapons have the exact same stats. Quirks get taken away, both IS and Clan XLs have the same durability, etc.

Keep everything like that until all the heavy complainers from both sides realize they actually just suck.

[Aim64C]

Almond Brown, on 02 July 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

So in reality they stopped working on that game prior to its end then?

In the sense that they released a game, patched mostly for bug issues, and were done.

The game was just fine and many people found it to be an enjoyable game with few major outstanding balance issues.

Quote

Well damn. Can we come back to MWO in 15 years and 9 iterations later and see how its Balance is then? Seems only fair right.

You asked for a game that was online where they weren't actively adjusting for balance time after time.

C&C: Renegade was made back when they still sold computer games to people, not entertainment services. You bought the game as a single financial transaction and the online component was all voluntary.

They also had a tendency to spend more time on balancing games in that era.

MWO will not be balanced in that time frame unless it undergoes a complete design overhaul. The game is based around Solaris and that is where the majority of the problems come from.

PGI's business model, however, is built around selling collectors' items to niche enthusiasts. There's no incentive to market a game. The 'game' is a sort of virtual display case for the collectors that is entirely peripheral to the main objectives of the business model - which is to sell artwork.

[Tombstoner]

Just make the mechs stock and be done with it. no hot swapping anything. problem solved.....

[FupDup]

Tombstoner, on 02 July 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

Just make the mechs stock and be done with it. no hot swapping anything. problem solved.....

Stormcrow Prime said:

Hello friend...

[Aim64C]

Tombstoner, on 02 July 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

Just make the mechs stock and be done with it. no hot swapping anything. problem solved.....

And there goes any reason to play the game.

The fun of MechWarrior has always been the customizing of 'mechs - the 'mech lab.

That is, literally, the only reason to play the game, currently.

There's no expression of lore or story within the game.

We aren't seeing the story of various notable battletech heroes (such as 'Trent' and his defection to provide the Exodus Road that made Operation Bulldog possible). We aren't seeing the complicated politics and the wonder of a star-faring sci-fi series that doesn't have aliens yet where the human politics and ideologies can be just as (if not even more) diverse as any blue-skin tentacle-haired creations.
Without that, there's really nothing to draw anyone to the game except for the ability to customize, and the game pretty much isolates itself even further into an even smaller niche community.

[LordBraxton]

InspectorG, on 01 July 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

Think about it...

You will have about 50 comp players min-maxing the hell outta the IIC's...

And scores and scores of under-hivers putting LRMs and LBX on everything because: moar tonnage.

I see more LRM Atlas than not...and not that many drop Stock on purpose...

can I have your Elo?