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#21 Abisha

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 12:21 PM

View PostGreenjulius, on 02 July 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

It's really a question of how long you want to keep your PC. Windows 7 is only on track to get updates until 2020. After that, you'll be running a highly insecure OS. Windows 10 will get updates until 2026.

That point alone make it a no-duh decision to upgrade for free any Windows 7 and 8 PC to 10.


windows 7 will works fine after 2020
By that time steam is likely released it's OS, then i can finally can move on from Microsoft agony.
and by the looks how slowly development is going now i say direct 9 still leads in 2020.

#22 Aim64C

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 12:35 PM

View PostAbisha, on 02 July 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:


free till next year. keep your facts straight.


Is it a subscription, or something?

Calm yourself, child.

Quote

also i not see any reason to switch from windows 7.


DirectX 12 is the biggest one, though there are considerable revisions to the NT kernel as well.

http://www.eurogamer...s-a-gamechanger

"Once we move onto the Mantle and DirectX 12 results, AMD more than redeems itself. There are immense boosts to draw call throughput from start to finish on every processor tested, the largest boost coming from the FX 8350 where the R9 290X receives a frankly monumental boost to performance in the order of 2,000 per cent (!) when single-core DX11 and DX12 scores are compared. Remember, we are only benching one particular element of the rendering process - but regardless, the boost is phenomenal.

The leap in performance applies to both Mantle and DirectX 12, and we happily noted that AMD's DX12 showing actually shows a significant improvement over Mantle (its own API, remember) in every test. Also worthy of comment is that AMD is highly competitive against Nvidia in all areas here - indeed, its lower-end GPUs actually process draw calls faster than their Nvidia equivalents. But the good news is that every piece of hardware we tested sees a boost courtesy of DX12 - we're seeing a far higher utilisation of both CPU and GPU. The figures demonstrate in particular how under-utilised the geometry engines are on our GPUs - what other areas of the graphics hardware are also under-utilised that DX12 could potentially access? The prospects are tantalising.

The good news doesn't end there. In typical DirectX 11 gaming, the Core i5 4690K is one of fastest reasonably priced CPUs on the market and runs rings around similarly priced FX 8350. With DX12, the gap closes significantly and the AMD chip is much more competitive - not bad considering that we're comparing a 2014 Intel processor with an AMD rival that's actually two years older."

I expect that this will, in time, translate to an actual difference in how many programs run. DirectX and DirectCompute are two sides of the same coin - and it's quite possible that it will overshadow its roots in OpenCL to completely re-define what we think of as a processor (such as AMD's "APU" concept, where that merged graphics card isn't a graphics card at all, but effectively an array of vector pipelines that can stream dozens or hundreds of complex equations in a single clock provided the L3 cache ram can keep up).[/color]

Quote

their is nothing windows 10 can posable offer me over 7 also i can buy windows 7 pro for like 12 euro's why on earth do i spend 200 euro's on windows 10 for?


Windows 7 is unavailable for purchase in the U.S. It was pulled from many store shelves and you might be able to find it from online retailers. It was pulled because of Window 8.

So, if you can still buy Windows 7 - then that's cool.

If you can upgrade (for free) to windows 10 - then, at present, it doesn't seem like too bad of an idea, although people like myself are skeptical and will await for product delivery.

Either way - Microsoft will only be developing DX12 and many other things for Windows 10.

By no means am I telling you to rush out and spend 200 euros on an operating system for a PC you already have an operating system for.

Edit: - I've no idea how those color tags got in there; removed.

Edited by Aim64C, 02 July 2015 - 12:37 PM.


#23 Thumper3

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 12:40 PM

View PostI Zeratul I, on 02 July 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:


Upcoming OpenGL support for CryEngine has been announced.

http://cryengine.com...us-rift-support



Oh thank god, so maybe we can get MWO on Steam Linux next year? LOL



View PostGreenjulius, on 02 July 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

It's really a question of how long you want to keep your PC. Windows 7 is only on track to get updates until 2020. After that, you'll be running a highly insecure OS. Windows 10 will get updates until 2026.

That point alone make it a no-duh decision to upgrade for free any Windows 7 and 8 PC to 10.


Um, by the time Win 7 is end of life'd in 2020 M$ will have released at least one more OS. So who the heck cares if 10 will go to 2026? :lol: In 2020 you'll be saying we should all jump into Win 11 because 10 will be done soon and 11 will go to 2034. In this particular case, length of update support is not a valid upgrade consideration.

Also, TANSTAAFL Call me a cynic but what is the end game for offering it for free when they have always charged out the butt prior? They aren't offering it free to Mac and Linux users to try to entice them. They get nothing from offering it free, it's not like people are going to suddenly love M$ and the payoff will be in goodwill (which is almost as worthless as the paper money is printed on). There's something to it, and I will happily let others discover what it is first.

Personally, I only use Windows for gaming because I have no choice, otherwise all my computers and laptops run on Linux which is always secure, always functional, and always free. So if in 2020 there are still games I want to play on Windows I will buy a new hard drive and bundle an OEM disc of Win10 at that time.

Sorry for the OT, but it was already off track when I got here LOL. Also, you have a better chance of getting a PGI response by twitting, or tweeting or whatever to Russ than posting here. My guess is there won't be an issue because 10 is not some vast departure or new development, it's just M$ trying to clean up another Windows ME disaster.

#24 Abisha

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 12:54 PM

View PostAim64C, on 02 July 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:


Is it a subscription, or something?

Calm yourself, child.



DirectX 12 is the biggest one, though there are considerable revisions to the NT kernel as well.

http://www.eurogamer...s-a-gamechanger

"Once we move onto the Mantle and DirectX 12 results, AMD more than redeems itself. There are immense boosts to draw call throughput from start to finish on every processor tested, the largest boost coming from the FX 8350 where the R9 290X receives a frankly monumental boost to performance in the order of 2,000 per cent (!) when single-core DX11 and DX12 scores are compared. Remember, we are only benching one particular element of the rendering process - but regardless, the boost is phenomenal.

The leap in performance applies to both Mantle and DirectX 12, and we happily noted that AMD's DX12 showing actually shows a significant improvement over Mantle (its own API, remember) in every test. Also worthy of comment is that AMD is highly competitive against Nvidia in all areas here - indeed, its lower-end GPUs actually process draw calls faster than their Nvidia equivalents. But the good news is that every piece of hardware we tested sees a boost courtesy of DX12 - we're seeing a far higher utilisation of both CPU and GPU. The figures demonstrate in particular how under-utilised the geometry engines are on our GPUs - what other areas of the graphics hardware are also under-utilised that DX12 could potentially access? The prospects are tantalising.

The good news doesn't end there. In typical DirectX 11 gaming, the Core i5 4690K is one of fastest reasonably priced CPUs on the market and runs rings around similarly priced FX 8350. With DX12, the gap closes significantly and the AMD chip is much more competitive - not bad considering that we're comparing a 2014 Intel processor with an AMD rival that's actually two years older."

I expect that this will, in time, translate to an actual difference in how many programs run. DirectX and DirectCompute are two sides of the same coin - and it's quite possible that it will overshadow its roots in OpenCL to completely re-define what we think of as a processor (such as AMD's "APU" concept, where that merged graphics card isn't a graphics card at all, but effectively an array of vector pipelines that can stream dozens or hundreds of complex equations in a single clock provided the L3 cache ram can keep up).[/color]



Windows 7 is unavailable for purchase in the U.S. It was pulled from many store shelves and you might be able to find it from online retailers. It was pulled because of Window 8.

So, if you can still buy Windows 7 - then that's cool.

If you can upgrade (for free) to windows 10 - then, at present, it doesn't seem like too bad of an idea, although people like myself are skeptical and will await for product delivery.

Either way - Microsoft will only be developing DX12 and many other things for Windows 10.

By no means am I telling you to rush out and spend 200 euros on an operating system for a PC you already have an operating system for.

Edit: - I've no idea how those color tags got in there; removed.

I hear that lie before with DX10 (i see no improvement over DX9 and DX11.. really are their even games released using it?.

they can promise golden mountain
but the final decision is with the Game developers to use DX12 and guess what. they not gonna use it when most of their potential customers using Direct X 9.

know what they say? Many give little promise does a crazy joy in life.

Edited by Abisha, 02 July 2015 - 12:58 PM.


#25 PR1VATEER

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 01:08 PM

What happened to Windows 9?

#26 Abisha

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 01:21 PM

View PostPivateer, on 02 July 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

What happened to Windows 9?

i expecting this not being a serious question.
but windows 10 is in fact 9, they call it 10 for some particular reasons.

#27 Kristov Kerensky

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 01:26 PM

For gamers, DX12 itself is enough reason to upgrade to Win10, and yes Abisha, developers are already implementing DX12 support, like CryTek. The CryEngine DX12 upgrade is already out, Russ talked about it and he'd LOVE to use it but there's 1 little problem...

CryTek removes ALL DX9 support with the DX12 upgrade, and too many people, like you, still run on DX9 because they don't have systems capable of running DX11. And if you can't actually see the improvement of DX11 over DX9, well...nuff said.

#28 C E Dwyer

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 01:36 PM

main concern with Win10 is if your forced to upgrade to the next, which is likely to be a subscription service

#29 Chemie

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 01:38 PM

They skipped Windows 9 to avoid confusion with 95, 98 and 9x designations.

#30 Thumper3

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 01:41 PM

View PostChemie, on 02 July 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

They skipped Windows 9 to avoid confusion with 95, 98 and 9x designations.


No, they skipped 9 because they want to break the cycle of every even numbers Windows OS being crap. Since 10 is their "No really, we just rushed the last one, seriously, thanks for buying the last one but this time we tried." they didn't want to name it 9 and then have 10 be a pile of poo. Anyone who REALLY was going to confuse the new OS as Windows 9 with Windows 95/98 should not be anywhere near a computer, or society really. LOL

#31 Sundervine

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 01:58 PM

They skipped 9 because they had to. When they made 95, 98 etc, they made it possible to write code that only checked for a 9 instead of the actual number. Since they were using years back then they did not think they would ever need the 9 designation again since well 2000 was coming. In another hundred years when it was 2095 etc the code would be nothing like now and never need the old 9 code.
However they then changed to windows xp, changing their naming pattern. Thus now they have a problem. It really is not a true problem I mean who cares what their number is.

To the ops point, I have been running MWO on windows 10 for a long time. Its fine as long as your computer runs windows 10 fine. That of course is something you need to find out yourself. Check the min specs and go with that. There are very few major bugs left. I now use it for all my current computers, 5 and only one with an x99 board has any problems. Those are not big problems but they are annoying. The hardest thing to deal with is: for example the witcher 3, windows 10 seems to have an issue with the visual c++ libraries. I had to reinstall them to get it to work. DX12 is the best thing to happen to PC gaming since we started getting 3d games. Thus I would recommend anyone to upgrade.

Also since xbox one will be using dx12, many new games coming out in a year or two will be dx12 only or optimized. Why you ask, well because with both pc and xb one being dx12, it will be in the majority over dx9. Not counting there are very few graphics cards not dx11 compatable now, and even all new laptops will all be dx12 compatible soon. Also dx12 is by far more efficient than dx11 which is better than 10 which is far better than 9. Most people do not know this bu dx9 is such a bad library that it should have died a long time ago. Anyone wanting to keep it around is insane. It is unoptimized garbage even in comparison to dx10.

Anyway upgrade to 10 while it is free. Even xp people have a way to get it for free somehow. I do not remember how but i read it somewhere.

#32 Aim64C

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 02:11 PM

View PostAbisha, on 02 July 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

I hear that lie before with DX10 (i see no improvement over DX9 and DX11.. really are their even games released using it?.

they can promise golden mountain
but the final decision is with the Game developers to use DX12 and guess what. they not gonna use it when most of their potential customers using Direct X 9.

know what they say? Many give little promise does a crazy joy in life.


The improvements between DirectX10 and 11 are actually more substantive (in my opinion) than those between 9 and 10.

The biggest change between 9 and 10 is the -concept- of graphics hardware. DX9 hardware was broken up into various pipelines to handle different types of instructions. Direct X 10 and Open GL 2 (if I remember correctly) changed that with compliant hardware running what was known as a "unified shader."

This, basically, turned all of the processing pipelines into the same structure (with some architectural differences between manufacturers) and used firmware/software drivers to perform various calculations. This led to massive changes in how things like particles and geometry were processed.

For example - I recall DX10 demos at the time running to simulate smoke and other particle behavior dynamically (IE - the particles actually move randomly and are entirely rendered by the GPU). This also allowed for some other things like more interesting water effects and some better lens effects.

DX11 brought DX compute and integrated a number of increased transformation functions. Since it is, for the most part, a software/driver upgrade for the unified shader architecture - it's more a refinement of DX 10 in my opinion.

DX12 throws all of that out the window. DX12 is based heavily upon AMD's Mantle - which was intended to be a very inclusive API built in the vein of Open CL with both unified graphics and stream computing functions (such as physics simulations, simulations of neural networks, etc) that would run at the hardware level with minimal driver fluff.

Basically - what you are programming in Direct X 12 is not references to abstract shader libraries that are then sorted through by the driver. You are programming instructions for the hardware that will be compiled and loaded into the hardware very directly. It's all designed to be very low level and to 'spread' across the available hardware efficiently.

It's not just a gold mountain that has been promised - it's a gold mountain that has largely been delivered.

As for DX9 - the main reason it has been hanging around is because there are still quite a few Windows XP machines floating around and because of the console market that was dominated by DX8/9-ish hardware. The move to 11 has been much quicker and is carrying more momentum than there ever was behind 10 several years ago (... holy crap, has it been that long, already?). And 12 is basically a new Direct X paradigm.

Which is very similar to what Vulkan is - it is the next generation of Open GL - and it is moving in the same direction. It's a low-level API built to integrate graphics and Open CL into one concept with plans to make it function with C++ instructions.

#33 OznerpaG

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 02:44 PM

i don't have the link from where i read it, but Win10 is supposed to be the last version of windows. after releasing Win10 they will keep updating and expanding on it, similar to Android

part of the attraction of Win10 is that it will work on PCs, tablets, and phones so "theoretically" you will be able to run most Windows legacy programs on all 3 platforms - but we'l see how that works out lol

i read MS is offering the free upgrade to all Win7 and Win8 users, whether you have a pirated version or not. this could be their way of staying in the OS business and keeping users maximized since there are still a lot of programmers that program for Windows and it would be death for MS if programmers started ignoring Windows for Android / iOS because of a bigger/better market

Edited by JagdFlanker, 30 July 2015 - 04:24 PM.


#34 zagibu

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 02:45 PM

It was OpenGL 3 that ditched the fixed pipeline.

#35 cSand

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 02:52 PM

View PostJazzbandit1313, on 02 July 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Posted Image


why laugh?

it's true

View PostSundervine, on 02 July 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Anyway upgrade to 10 while it is free. Even xp people have a way to get it for free somehow. I do not remember how but i read it somewhere.


http://www.theverge....ows-10-for-free

View PostAbisha, on 02 July 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:


windows 7 will works fine after 2020


in the same way XP works fine now, if you don't mind having a wide open door to malware and viruses.

Believe me I work with it all the time, and that door is WIDE open

View PostBurktross, on 02 July 2015 - 12:05 PM, said:

Yeah.... it boots fast as hell, but beyond that, I get right click crashes, task manager not booting when needed, dissapearing admin privelleges, and the most temperamental OS in regards logging in after a cold shut down


I hate to tell you but

these arenot common iissues to Windows 8.1 and likely caused by something you have done

I deal with 8.1 on an enterprise level day in day out, and it's pretty rock solid.

The biggest pain is getting into safe mode on a PC with a an SSD to be honest, lol

#36 Kira Onime

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 02:54 PM

Should always wait a bit before jumping onto a new OS.

#37 darkkterror

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 04:08 PM

View PostAbisha, on 02 July 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

but the final decision is with the Game developers to use DX12 and guess what. they not gonna use it when most of their potential customers using Direct X 9.


So, game developers aren't going to use DX12 because "most" of their potential customers are still using DX9? Huh, if that's the case, then I wonder why so many of the AAA games released in the last few years require DX10 or 11 at minimum.

#38 EgoSlayer

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 04:09 PM

View PostThumper3, on 02 July 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

<snip>
Also, TANSTAAFL Call me a cynic but what is the end game for offering it for free when they have always charged out the butt prior? They aren't offering it free to Mac and Linux users to try to entice them. They get nothing from offering it free, it's not like people are going to suddenly love M$ and the payoff will be in goodwill (which is almost as worthless as the paper money is printed on). There's something to it, and I will happily let others discover what it is first.
<snip>


It's free because there are 1 billion computers running windows that are eligible for the upgrade. Two words: Market Share.
Windows 10 includes an app store (that MS gets 30% commission of sales) and windows 10 is a common platform for PC, Phone, XBOX, and Server. Write once application code that can be run on all three platforms with the only change required being compiler flags. It's a huge install base to get developers on board writing applications for (mostly) windows phone. Adding an install base of 1 billion in a year is a huge market for developers to write apps for - which then directly supports MS though the app store.
It's not altruistic - but its not malicious or some secret agenda either.

#39 Peter2k

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 05:33 PM

If you're a gamer, on any budget, you want DX12

To get the performance increase out of the low level Api all you need is a gtx400 line or newer, or an AMD card with GCN (for supporting DX12)
doesn't support all new eyecandy, but getting more fps out of you're old hardware is always nice

also the difference between the home and pro version is only stuff that you would care about if you're a sys admin etc.

There is no reason not to upgrade besides a "I don't want to"
Have been running the preview build since early January, it's been solid and quite nice, he'll even DosBox and GOG games work

#40 Peter2k

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 05:36 PM

View PostKiraOnime, on 02 July 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

Should always wait a bit before jumping onto a new OS.


Actually you can revert after "upgrading" to 10 to you're previous Install
Testing it out

Besides, it's been running great, and MWO feelt smoother on 10 when I still had a dual boot system with Windows7





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