45 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

I keep seeing posts with people saying most mechs have alphas in the 60-80 range. From what I see that is just not true. So lets look at see with some help from you guys.

First lets say we are talking about a balanced alpha where you can do it around 3 times without over heating. Not a one shot and shut down alpha.

Next lets not include super short range builds. Those should have large alphas because of the huge disadvantages they have.

So we are looking at short mid range to long range builds that can alpha around 3 times and are not gimped in a huge way just so you can make a point If you look at the list below at the common direct fire non LRM mechs you will seea trend. They seem to be trying to keep alphas in the 40s and where heat is high enough so you cant just alpha over and over again.

Seems those saying things like we have lots of laser vomit alphas in the 60-80 range are wrong.

Best Timber Wolf build at the moment is probably this one. 48 Alpha http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3932df08caf3380

Hellbringer http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d3ad4bae0075cbe 50 Alpha and its really hot. 2 Alphas maybe?

Ebon jaquar 57 Alpha and hot and limited on alphas. And I think the EJ is going to get some negative nerfs in the future. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9fa63674e12a952

Wolverine 32 Alpha http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0af55a6a9547830

StormCrow 46 Alpha http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2b6fbded10b92e0

Executioner. 61 Alpha but probably so hot it would not count. The 54 Alpha version is probably more managable for most people. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f193990c5181edb

Stalker 54 Alpha but huge ghost heat so really not an alpha machine but figing in groups. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dae3bc95797abf5

King Crab 57 Alpha and good heat. But it is a 100 ton mechs so about right I think. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9ab07cca133ee73

Banshee 43 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4d03bdfd1d77042

Warhawk 44 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c5f44b087f2bf63

Warhawk laser vomit 59 but not really ment to alpha because of huge ghostheat. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e697ba56e4a2472

Atlas 68 alpha but AC20 and SRM so short range and does not count. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8655d71912cb3d8

Thunderbolt SS - 42 Alpha. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9cea1863d0df921

Dire Wolf. 68. Ahh now here is one with a large alpha and decent heat. Also though 100 tons and slow moving. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...15b2a641fb07f7a

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Yeah, in my experience most Clan alphas are in the 48-57 range with the Dire Wolf being the only one to see the 60-80 range.

Edited by Rouken, 04 July 2015 - 09:42 AM.

[Wrathful Scythe]

It's easy: Clan alphas are to high and IS alphas are low. Heat and burntime aren't valid values for comparison and only the damage and weight matters.

Jokes aside: People tend to exaggerate to underline their point. The Atlas has the same alpha as an DWolf but on a way shorter range so it isn't that useful. Some DPS mechs like the Dragon have small alphas but wield still the firepower of mechs almost twice as heavy.

Alpha is a simple measurement which doesn't calculate other important values in it. But peoples minds are simple so they keep comparing broken down values.

[Hit the Deck]

A better build for WHK-C:
63 pts alpha

Edited by Hit the Deck, 04 July 2015 - 09:51 AM.

[Water Bear]

People may exaggerate the actual value of the alphas involved - in reality, they probably are closer to 40-50.

What's important is that the alpha playstyle is one the Clans have made extremely common, even typical, so the discussion is more about that than the actual values.

[Wintersdark]

Realistically, most alphas are quite a bit smaller - large alpha mechs are almost always either spread damage (pushed up via SRM or LRM spam), extremely short range (many small/medium pulse lasers), or absurdly high heat.

There are more DPS builds today than there used to be, builds designed around pushing more damage over a given duration - typically, using heavily quirked mechs than can really exploit a weapon to push way more DPS than should be normally possible. That also spreads damage, however, rather than just centerpunching a mech.

Water Bear, on 04 July 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

People may exaggerate the actual value of the alphas involved - in reality, they probably are closer to 40-50.

What's important is that the alpha playstyle is one the Clans have made extremely common, even typical, so the discussion is more about that than the actual values.

High alphas where the way to go long before Clans where here. Just saying.

[Thorqemada]

Some Mechs i play or have played (Alpha with LRM excluded / Short+Medium Range to Long Range):
Jenner 7D(F) = 37.2 to 0
Cicada 3M = 25+5 to 5+5 (+5 is for using the U/AC5 doubleshot)
Shadow Hawk 2H(P) = 31.5 to 10 (if you count an AC10 for long range)
Centurion AH(L) = 32.9 to 0
Hunchback 4G(F) = 35 to 0
Vindicator 1R = 45.9 to 9
Thunderbolt 5S(P) = 36.9 to 9
Atlas 7D(F) = 36 to 24 (to differentiate it from the Atlas 7S i have put 2x ALRM15 on it)
King Crab 000(L) = 48 to 48
Battlemaster 1G(P) = 48+5 to 23+5
Atlas 7S(L) = 68.7 to 33 (43 to 33 if you stay outside of 270m SRM range but still close to optimal ML range)

Clan Mechs i faced:
Timber God = 79.6
Mad Dog = 91.4 (i guess the Clan SRM have the same damage as IS SRM)
Mad Dog = 105.4 (at least that was the enemy weaponry my readout did show)
Storm Crow = 78.5
Storm Crow = 64.5

To the OP - an Alpha is allways the damage you can do with 1 hit firing all your Weaponry at once or in a so short timeframe that they hit all the same location. - to repeate it several times is not necessary - you only need to be able to step back into cover or kill your target with certainty.

Edited by Thorqemada, 04 July 2015 - 11:59 AM.

[One Medic Army]

My clan mechs tend to run around 50-70 alpha (mostly laser). My IS mechs are much lower (excepting SRM splats), but have better heat efficiency.

I blame the ERML, lots of damage, good range, 1ton. So everyone slaps them on in at least a 4pack usually, and when they need a big alpha they have a big alpha. IS you don't see that as much with MLs (spending 4tons on 20more damage at <300m? Screw that!). Of course omni construction rules mean that most clan medium/heavy/assaults have an easy time finding the hard points, while a lot of IS mechs are stuck with 6 hard points total.

Edited by One Medic Army, 04 July 2015 - 11:31 AM.

[Thorqemada]

Yeah, the Long Range Alpha at my Mechs is at best 33 (only my King Crab has 48 that work at long range) while Clans easily can do around 50 to 70.

Many of my Mechs have an optimal range of 270m (and all SRM Mechs have a huge dropdown of Alphadamage beyond that.

Edited by Thorqemada, 04 July 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Thorqemada, on 04 July 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

To the OP - an Alpha is allways the damage you can do with 1 hit firing all your Weaponry at once or in a so short timeframe that they hit all the same location. - to repeate it several times is not necessary - you only need to be able to step back into cover or kill your target with certainty.

His requirement that you repeat it 2-3 times is basically because builds like those Mad Dogs are pretty much bad if your opponents have half a brain and push. This is often a failing with clan mechs - they poke extremely well, and if allowed to do so will dominate. Close the distance, force them to brawl, and it's a very different story.

Now, he's more approaching it from the angle that you can get really high alphas, but only at a cost, and one that leaves the mech very vulnerable - spread, heat, range.

[Roadkill]

XX Sulla XX, on 04 July 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

I keep seeing posts with people saying most mechs have alphas in the 60-80 range. From what I see that is just not true.

That's because you're thinking direct fire, and they're simply reading the firepower number off the mechlab which includes missiles.

My Ebon Jaguar has an "alpha" of 64, but you can only fire it once. In practice, I fire 32+32 to avoid Ghost Heat on 8 x CMPL. But some people would still look at that "firepower" number in the mechlab and say that it has a 64-pt alpha.

It's basically just an mildly incorrect use of the term.

[Thorqemada]

If i am right an Alpha is orignally when you fire all your Weapons in 1 turn in Battletech.
1 Turn is a timeframe of some seconds that is diffrent regarding to the ruleset you use.

In this game i would count 32+32 damage inside of 0.5 seconds to 1 second to avoid Ghost Heat that hit the same location as Alpha.

In the very first Mechwarrior game an Alpha was the forced 1 time chainfire of all Weaponry.

Edited by Thorqemada, 04 July 2015 - 12:00 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Why I am using alpha the way I am is because that how most people I am talking about are using it. Things like this laser vomit with 60+ alpha can take out my mech in one shot. Or they can shoot several of the huge alphas etc. I am not talking about people referencing LRM builds, short range builds, Builds that are ment to be chain fired etc.

[Thorqemada]

OK

[Roadkill]

XX Sulla XX, on 04 July 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

Why I am using alpha the way I am is because that how most people I am talking about are using it. Things like this laser vomit with 60+ alpha can take out my mech in one shot. Or they can shoot several of the huge alphas etc. I am not talking about people referencing LRM builds, short range builds, Builds that are ment to be chain fired etc.

Well, my Ebon Jaguar (8 x CMPL) can take out your mech in one shot with its 64-pt alpha. I'm not likely to try it, though, due to Ghost Heat. Instead I'll fire 32 + 32 and risk spreading the damage, but technically my build does have a 64-pt alpha.

[627]

you forgot the Wubhopper.

48 alpha, no ghost heat, short burn time and can shoot all day before overheating. Ok, not all day but heat is not a big problem with it.

[LordKnightFandragon]

The size of the Alpha isnt really an issue, its the sustainability of the alphas that is.

[Hit the Deck]

LordKnightFandragon, on 04 July 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

The size of the Alpha isnt really an issue, its the sustainability of the alphas that is.

This generally depends on the range.

[Aresye]

The PPFLD meta usually had alphas between 30-40 points. With laser vomit the average seems to be around 40-60.

Clans can get some scary high numbers for alphas, but most of those are based around SRM loadouts, with Timberwolves and Mad Dogs creating alphas > 80 points, but that doesn't make them very effective within the current meta.

Between 40-60 seems to be the sweet spot to aim for.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Hit the Deck, on 04 July 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

This generally depends on the range.

Yeah, how often do fights end up being outside any range beyond like 300m.....