105 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

truth is we have ZERO input on how much or even how the rescaling is going to be handled. I'm guessing at blanket rescales because it would probably take less effort than resizing specific parts of the mech, etc, and PGI tends to be hit and miss on how much effort they want to put into "fixes".

But we don't honestly know how they will go about it, and if it's the "first wave" or a one time thing.

Very True but based on the Nova Scaling Picture i did,





Im worried that anymore than 10% will make the Mech seem too Small/Big,

Edit-
Perhaps PGI will Supprize us and give the Nova 10% shorter Forarms?


Red Bar represents distance from Cockpit to Weapons(almost half of the normal Nova)
the Scale has not Changed just took 10% off the Forarms & Changed the Legs Angle,

Hey i can Dream Cant i?

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 04 July 2015 - 07:53 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 July 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

Very True but based on the Nova Scaling Picture i did,





Im worried that anymore than 10% will make the Mech seem too Small/Big,

quite possible. But some mechs need to be rescaled more along one plane than another, width, depth, height, etc. I have a feeling it's just going to be "zoom in/zoom out" scaling though, of the whole model.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

quite possible. But some mechs need to be rescaled more along one plane than another, width, depth, height, etc. I have a feeling it's just going to be "zoom in/zoom out" scaling though, of the whole model.

i agree, the Awesome defiantly needs to be thinner, i think the height on it is good,

Edit-
I once Made a Parisite Code that you could Throw on a Model and change its Scale,
X / Y / Z, my code was in Unity, but im sure i could generate one in Cry3, so PGI should as well,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 04 July 2015 - 07:57 PM.

[Thorqemada]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2015 - 07:44 PM, said:

hmm,. so now i have to potart for shots I coul dmake before with steady aim, and in high volume? Pass, lol.

You know that you can aim as soon you stop firing your Jumpjets...
Also the height of a Mech has nothing to do with shoting over a ridge but anything with high mounted hardpoints and if anything a rescaling would help you bcs the hardpoints stay high while the Mechs silhouette becomes smaller and even your enemy fire exposition time will become less by a fraction of a second from the current value.

So there is indeed no, zero, zilch, nada, null downside to a rescaling of the Shadow Hawk.

The Mech is simply way back in the line for that

Edited by Thorqemada, 04 July 2015 - 08:01 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Thorqemada, on 04 July 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

You know that you can aim as soon you stop firing your Jumpjets...
Also the height of a Mech has nothing to do with shoting over a ridge but anything with high mounted hardpoints and if anything a rescaling would help you bcs the hardpoints stay high while the Mechs silhouette becomes smaller and even your enemy fire exposition time will become less by a fraction of a second from the current value.

So there is indeed no, zero, zilch, nada, null downside to a rescaling of the Shadow Hawk.

The Mech is simply way back in the line for that

and again, who said a dang thing about shooting over a ridge?

[Sable]

I voted for the shadowhawk because they asked for the top 5 mechs not the only mech. Obviously the awesome is the top vote as well as the quickdraw. But i voted the shadowhawk as well because i've always felt like it was too tall for a medium mech. That's the only factor, not balance, not to buff or nerf it, simple because by medium mechs standards I feel like it's too tall. The rest of the mediums on average seem similar in height except for the shadowhawk to me. It's an opinion poll i can use whatever criteria i have an opinion on.

[Eider]

Sable, on 04 July 2015 - 08:29 PM, said:

I voted for the shadowhawk because they asked for the top 5 mechs not the only mech. Obviously the awesome is the top vote as well as the quickdraw. But i voted the shadowhawk as well because i've always felt like it was too tall for a medium mech. That's the only factor, not balance, not to buff or nerf it, simple because by medium mechs standards I feel like it's too tall. The rest of the mediums on average seem similar in height except for the shadowhawk to me. It's an opinion poll i can use whatever criteria i have an opinion on.

Same here, it just seems too tall for a med mech.. bigger than some assaults.

[Zordicron]

Sable, on 04 July 2015 - 08:29 PM, said:

I voted for the shadowhawk because they asked for the top 5 mechs not the only mech. Obviously the awesome is the top vote as well as the quickdraw. But i voted the shadowhawk as well because i've always felt like it was too tall for a medium mech. That's the only factor, not balance, not to buff or nerf it, simple because by medium mechs standards I feel like it's too tall. The rest of the mediums on average seem similar in height except for the shadowhawk to me. It's an opinion poll i can use whatever criteria i have an opinion on.

Trebuchet is 5 tons lighter and taller yet.

Doesnt matter, apparently the Cent is winning by a wide margin of all things right now. WTF.

[Bishop Steiner]

Eldagore, on 04 July 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

Trebuchet is 5 tons lighter and taller yet.

Doesnt matter, apparently the Cent is winning by a wide margin of all things right now. WTF.

SMH.

And this is why the community shouldn't have a say in anything important......

Though at least the Nova is still in the overall lead....but still. It would be nice if the Centy or Shad got resized,but certainly not needed.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 04 July 2015 - 08:56 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

The problem (almost all Mechwarrior games) is that all mechs, except have the Light class, are scaled too large, and almost twice the size as in the lore

Shadowhawk in Lore height ~ 9.5 m (M1 Abrams = length ~ 9.5 m)
Thunderbolt ~ 8.5m
most Mechs (Banshee the largest IS Mech with 14m) had heights of ~ 10-12m (Stalker is approximately correct for an Assault)
so would the mechs at the same speed, in the same time but to cover the distance twice, so were real racing animations for the mechs from medium needed, they were small, agile, would lower targets, could quickly and easily find coverage

Left :MWO Hunchback ...right rescaling Models of Awesome,Hunchback, and Dragon in Realtion to a M1 Abrams Tank

[TheCharlatan]

Height is a double edged sword (if you have high mounted HPs): you can shoot more stuff, but more stuff can shoot you. So like every double edged sword, skill helps in minimizing the cons and maximizing the pros.
For example, it can fire over teammates.
This means that tall mechs with high mounted HP can be good (SHD, GHR) but those without (Atlas, Gargles) will suffer from it.
Width, however, is always a con: you are bigger, easier to hit, and since we all aim from the cockpit, your sides get exposed for longer before you can even see the enemy when corner peeking. Also, convergence worsens the farther are the HPs from the cockpit. A good pilot can miigate this, but not use width for anything usefull (apart from shielding a team-mate... is that even a thing?), unlike height.
This means: the wider is a mech (compared to other mechs in its weight bracket) the worse it is.

I think we can all agree with what's written above, right?

Now, we are having this discussione because PGI asked us to choose 3 mechs from the medium bracket, a place were a lot of mechs are a bit too big (and some are ridiculously big).

Right now, we have the Nova and the Cent at the top, and a close competition for third place between the Treb and SHD.
Because of what was described above, the SHD (which is tall and has high HPs) is way better then the Treb, so the Treb could use the rescaling more.

And yes, this is for balancing purposes. The Treb is too big for a 50 ton mech. We could balance it with quirks, but don't we have enough of those?

So we have two possibilities:
(also TL,DR)
1- If you haven't voted yet and you agree with me, vote for the Treb over the SHD. Do the same in the following polls, if the Treb gets there. The Treb needs it more.
2- Ask PGI to bring one extra medium and one less light (or assalut) to the next step of the poll. We really don't have three Lights that need rescaling. I'll write a Post about it myself if come wednesday the SHD/Treb competition still dosen't have a clear victor.

[WatDo]

Shadowhawks are huge, dafuq are you talking about? That's one of the biggest reasons i've never tried em, they're as big as heavies with nowhere near the armor.

The bigger your mech is, the faster you're noticed in a firefight. Mediums don't have the armor to be focused at all.

[Master Pain]

I have both trebuchets and shadowhawks, the trebs are hurt by their size much more than the shadhawks are. Trebs have poor weapon placement and dont distribute the damage very well. Shadowhawks have much better weapon placement and distribute the damage better. Trebs need the help much more in my opinion.

[Sarlic]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2015 - 08:55 PM, said:

SMH.

And this is why the community shouldn't have a say in anything important......

Though at least the Nova is still in the overall lead....but still. It would be nice if the Centy or Shad got resized,but certainly not needed.

Most people go for a popular vote. They get a huge tunnelvision and vote for it without thinking.

It's like having Ugly Betty and a Big Busty Blonde with a good rack. Well.. i think you know the outcome were people put their votes on.

I have voted for the Trebbie. Because it made me eyes water when i saw that enormous medium entering the battlefield. But that's more personal.

Edited by Sarlic, 05 July 2015 - 12:03 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

WatDo, on 04 July 2015 - 11:37 PM, said:

Shadowhawks are huge, dafuq are you talking about? That's one of the biggest reasons i've never tried em, they're as big as heavies with nowhere near the armor.

The bigger your mech is, the faster you're noticed in a firefight. Mediums don't have the armor to be focused at all.

Lol. "DafuqutalkinboutWillis?". So you have never used one, but are an expert on them?

Suffice it to say, your argument is flawed and wrong, and this topic has plenty of posts from people who do know what they are talking about, to explain why.

[Hit the Deck]

CSJ Ranger, on 04 July 2015 - 10:18 PM, said:

The problem (almost all Mechwarrior games) is that all mechs, except have the Light class, are scaled too large, and almost twice the size as in the lore

Shadowhawk in Lore height ~ 9.5 m (M1 Abrams = length ~ 9.5 m)
Thunderbolt ~ 8.5m
most Mechs (Banshee the largest IS Mech with 14m) had heights of ~ 10-12m (Stalker is approximately correct for an Assault)
so would the mechs at the same speed, in the same time but to cover the distance twice, so were real racing animations for the mechs from medium needed, they were small, agile, would lower targets, could quickly and easily find coverage

Left :MWO Hunchback ...right rescaling Models of Awesome,Hunchback, and Dragon in Realtion to a M1 Abrams Tank

Aren't the rescaled 'Mechs still too big compared to the Abrams?

[Pjwned]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

Because it's fall from grace has exactly ZERO to do with size. It was the same size when it WAS the Medium Meta.

It has to do with 2 factors, neither of which rescaling will help:
1) StormCrow
2) Quirks

Stormcrow took it's lunch money as the unchallenged Medium MetaKing. Period. End of story. But because of the SHDs previous position in the food chain, when Quirks were handed out, it got jack crap, whilst almost everything around it got at least something over quirked to allow them to at least be super effective specialists.

Scaling? Not even an issue, and in fact, it's height is in fact very useful when combined with those shoulder hardpoints. That Height allows it to shoot over things and teammates that a shorter Shawk could not.

The mech is a fantastic generalist, with one of the tankiest hitboxes in the game....handicapped by this game being dominated by specialists.

If your concern is returning the SHD back to tier 1 glory, could we focus on the actual problems?

Which come down to quirks, not scale. As Quirks currently stand, the SHD simply needs to be better quirked. Or, a better thing for the game in general, is in this upcoming "global balance change" that PGI is claiming, that Nerfs in general get turned back. WAY back.

Anyhow, vote as you choose, but just understand what you are actually trying to accomplish and voting for. Resizing the Shadowhawk really won't do a dang thing to help it.

Cheers.

I do agree somewhat here, but to me the problem is not really the lack of quirks on the Shadowhawk (which are not actually all that bad) but rather the completely excessive amount of quirks on every other mech. Quirks for most mechs should strive to be around the same level as Shadowhawks, with a few exceptions for particularly bad mechs but even Locusts have excessive quirks with all the free leg armor and everything, and a huge number of mechs cross this line by miles.

Wintersdark, on 04 July 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

Yup. Right from the Shadowhawk's release, morons complained that is was too tall, and that that was somehow a problem.

Height is not a problem. Nobody ever misses mechs because they accidentally shoot over top of them; not even locusts. The natural reticle height with a level torso as people move around is pretty center mass on most mechs, and is low even to still hit short lights. People miss mechs because they miss to the sides.

I don't think it's a major occurrence exactly, but when sniping with a long range weapon you can actually miss by shooting over the top of the mech, and if targeting smaller mechs then that can happen more often.

Quote

While height does mean some terrain is less effective cover, it also means other terrain that would be too tall to fire over isn't anymore. When you've got shoulder mounts like the Shadowhawk does, height is a great thing: you can safely fire over friendly mechs, as well as terrain.

Why the shadowhawk was so good was those shoulder hardpoints, coupled with a very slight, narrow torso. With a narrow torso, your torso hitbox segments are narrow too allowing you to run an XL safely if you like, and to spread damage between the hitboxes easily.

I do agree here though, I never really saw the Shadowhawk's height as a big problem because it uses that height well (with the ballistic left torso especially, which is fantastic) and the main reason I stopped using it was because it was overshadowed by other mechs with huge quirks.

Quote

The only reason it's not a great mech now, is as Bishop said: Quirks. Rather, the lack thereof.

I do think it should be in a better place as far as quirks, but this should be accomplished by toning down huge quirks on other mechs rather than power creeping the Shadowhawk just as much.

Edited by Pjwned, 05 July 2015 - 04:20 AM.

[The Mech behind you]

WatDo, on 04 July 2015 - 11:37 PM, said:

Shadowhawks are huge, dafuq are you talking about? That's one of the biggest reasons i've never tried em, they're as big as heavies with nowhere near the armor.

The bigger your mech is, the faster you're noticed in a firefight. Mediums don't have the armor to be focused at all.

If I would pick a 55t mech by its size and judging the possible survivability by looks or that hitbox thread, then I would pick the Wolverine first because it seems to be the only right scaled 55t mech. Second I would pick the Shadowhawk. It is bigger than the others but it is thin. Thin enough to put XLs in it and don't have to worry about STs being a prime target. The 3rd would be the Griffin. The last 55t mech I would pick is the Kintaro. That thing is totally not able to brawl or getting anywhere near an enemy mech withouth getting blown up because it's such an easy target. It's wide and you can pop those ST from every angle.

[Pjwned]

Tennex, on 04 July 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

I keep saying it, because as a collective the people are always going to just scale down mechs lol and then ignore the small ones that need to be scaled up. Logic would say that if that keeps happening we get mechs the size of trolls. But i hope at least once we get the taller mechs, we can at least look at these smaller ones.

Nobody is consciously doing it, its just a trend. Like power creep, where everybody just wants things bigger and badder. They want their mechs smaller, and harder to hit.

Unless I'm missing something here, I believe I understand the intention but I don't necessarily agree that every mech's scaling should strictly fall on a linear line. For a perfect example of this, the 55 ton Shadowhawk is tall but skinny while the 65 ton Jagermech is short but stocky, and that makes for some interesting differences in mech profiles.

I do agree that there should be a linear line to generally follow for mech scaling, and that underperforming/overperforming mechs should absolutely not be too big/too small, but I don't think that scaling needs to be so uniform for every single mech and I don't agree that scaling should not be considered as a part of mech balancing.

[Tennex]

Pjwned, on 05 July 2015 - 06:02 AM, said:

Unless I'm missing something here, I believe I understand the intention but I don't necessarily agree that every mech's scaling should strictly fall on a linear line. For a perfect example of this, the 55 ton Shadowhawk is tall but skinny while the 65 ton Jagermech is short but stocky, and that makes for some interesting differences in mech profiles.

I do agree that there should be a linear line to generally follow for mech scaling, and that underperforming/overperforming mechs should absolutely not be too big/too small, but I don't think that scaling needs to be so uniform for every single mech and I don't agree that scaling should not be considered as a part of mech balancing.

Well the line is a measure of the average of the pixels from the side and the front. So its not a linear line for height. Its a linear line for the closest approximation of volume we can get

So with that chart, it takes into account, that mechs are stocky or skinny or w.e (its the reason why the grasshopper is so below the line)

Edited by Tennex, 05 July 2015 - 06:04 AM.