183 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

TheArisen, on 16 August 2015 - 12:00 AM, said:

Well if we're talking about balance, a LFE weighs more and therefore should have some kind of advantage. Or we can just keep the IS 100% inferior and not completely solve the imbalance issue.

The IS isn't 100% inferior anyways because they have ways of competing with clan tech, mostly in the form of weapons that are less hot and spread damage less. Other than a few disparities with some weapons here and there on both sides, the main problem with faction imbalance is the lack of a noticeable penalty when losing 20% of a cXL engine, and having a penalty that actually does anything would make things more balanced.

The LFE doesn't need a smaller penalty if/when it's implemented, clans just need to be reined in a bit with their unbalanced engines.

[Sjorpha]

I don't like the idea of IS XL surviving side torso loss, because that is what keeps it balanced against the standard engine. (The LFE if introduced would also be balanced against current std and XL by weighing in between and being able to lose 1 torso, but XL also surviving torso loss would mess that up as well)

So the current balance between IS standard and XL is actually very good and makes building IS mechs interesting because the choice between std and XL can be difficult. I'd be against any change that would make that choice easier and less interesting.

The problem is that Clan XL is too good, so something needs to be done about that. I could personally see a doubling of IS internal structure to match the Clan XL advantage pretty well, and then you wouldn't need to nerf the Clan engines. Or you could go the other way and nerf either Clan XL engine some way or Clan internal structure.

But messing with the very well designed balance between different IS engines isn't a good idea IMO.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sjorpha, on 16 August 2015 - 12:51 AM, said:

I don't like the idea of IS XL surviving side torso loss, because that is what keeps it balanced against the standard engine. (The LFE if introduced would also be balanced against current std and XL by weighing in between and being able to lose 1 torso, but XL also surviving torso loss would mess that up as well)

This comes up in every thread, if IS XL's lose their side torso death that they retain from TT, what's to say they can't deviate from TT with regards to Standard Engines.

The LFE doesn't solve anything because the IS have very few weapons that are actually better than Clan stuff (lurms not counting because, lurms). You are deluding yourself if you think that magically fixes the parity. At best, it mitigates the problem a little, but it is far from a solution.

[Pjwned]

WM Quicksilver, on 16 August 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

This comes up in every thread, if IS XL's lose their side torso death that they retain from TT, what's to say they can't deviate from TT with regards to Standard Engines.

The LFE doesn't solve anything because the IS have very few weapons that are actually better than Clan stuff (lurms not counting because, lurms). You are deluding yourself if you think that magically fixes the parity. At best, it mitigates the problem a little, but it is far from a solution.

If there really is such a disparity with the weapons then it should be handled by adjusting the weapons, not radically changing established rules like XL mech destruction on side torso loss, and then cXL engines should be reined in anyways along with LFEs being implemented because that lessens the established disparity with engines.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pjwned, on 16 August 2015 - 03:23 AM, said:

and then cXL engines should be reined in anyways along with LFEs being implemented because that lessens the established disparity with engines.

So rather than fix the problem, just add some power creep, sounds about right...

[Johnny Z]

I would like to say I thought of something to bring some balance on this subject. I havent though. its that complicated and would take in game testing like im sure they are doing for the rebelance thing.

The light fusion engine could be part of the answer, maybe a mech shut down on losing side torso or more nerfs to clan movement and heat when Omni XL loses a side or any combination of these or totally new ideas.

[Nightmare1]

Mcgral18, on 15 August 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

Mr Big Clammer afraid of 5% nerfs?


Oh the humanity.

...Aaaand there he goes, right on cue.

Personally, I dislike the Clans because they are awful and don't have the variety of my IS Mechs. I have zero reason to purchase or pilot them when my IS Mechs are so much better.

Case in point:



Clans are pathetic right now and don't need more nerfs. PGI, with the cheerleading of player nincompoops, keeps on yanking the carpet out from under the feet of Clanners, reducing them from their position as the pinnacle of BattleTech tech to being nothing more than flashy objects with little substance.

I preordered the Wave I Clan deal back when they were first announced. I regret that as one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made. I haven't finished basic'ing half the Mechs in the package, nor have I purchased any new Clan Mechs. I just don't see any point to them now.

[Mcgral18]

Nightmare1, on 16 August 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Personally, I dislike the Clans because they are awful and don't have the variety of my IS Mechs. I have zero reason to purchase or pilot them when my IS Mechs are so much better.

Your opinion doesn't change the fact they are the best robots in the game.

Lots of Bads, but still the most Top Tier Gundams. That is because of their engine more than anything. Quirks cannot change that, not even the 2 tons of IS+A on the Orion does that.

Sjorpha, on 16 August 2015 - 12:51 AM, said:

I don't like the idea of IS XL surviving side torso loss, because that is what keeps it balanced against the standard engine. (The LFE if introduced would also be balanced against current std and XL by weighing in between and being able to lose 1 torso, but XL also surviving torso loss would mess that up as well)

So the current balance between IS standard and XL is actually very good and makes building IS mechs interesting because the choice between std and XL can be difficult. I'd be against any change that would make that choice easier and less interesting.

The problem is that Clan XL is too good, so something needs to be done about that. I could personally see a doubling of IS internal structure to match the Clan XL advantage pretty well, and then you wouldn't need to nerf the Clan engines. Or you could go the other way and nerf either Clan XL engine some way or Clan internal structure.

But messing with the very well designed balance between different IS engines isn't a good idea IMO.

Giving STDs a structure bonus was one idea given, and Clans have STD engines as well (all the Battlemechs/IICs and a couple Omnis (KingFisher, Stooping Hawk)).

[Nightmare1]

Mcgral18, on 16 August 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

Your opinion doesn't change the fact they are the best robots in the game.

Lots of Bads, but still the most Top Tier Gundams. That is because of their engine more than anything. Quirks cannot change that, not even the 2 tons of IS+A on the Orion does that.

So you say, in your opinion. That does not change the fact that you may be wrong.

The bottomline is this: When I do occasionally play Clans, I find my TTK is very short compared to my IS Mechs. My Clanners feel squishy while even my Excel IS Mechs feel tough. I'm not afraid to tackle anything that moves with my IS Mechs, but I often think twice about it when using my Clan Mechs. They feel vulnerable, not powerful. They feel restrictive, not exciting. Nerfing them further will only serve to make greater this disparity. Any small niche they may have in the defunct CW is completely outweighed by the ludicrous nature of what the Clans have become.

I say, buff the Clans substantially and work out 10 vs 12. Implement a separate rewards system for the Clans that forces players to fight like in the Lore, differentiating then from the IS. Unlock the chassis. Make the Clans true Clans and quit trying to put kid's gloves on them so that the IS can maintain an edge over them.

Until that happens, Clan will never be true BT/MW creations in this game. They will remain half-Mechs, the progeny of Johnson and Johnson Band-Aid and an exciting thought dashed into the ground by people too afraid to embrace the full potential of what it could be.


Edit: Why on earth can't I spell "Band-Aid" with an "s" on the end??? The language filter is really going to bleep that out??? Sheer stupidity...

Edited by Nightmare1, 16 August 2015 - 10:08 AM.

[FupDup]

Nightmare1, on 16 August 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

So you say, in your opinion. That does not change the fact that you may be wrong.

The bottomline is this: When I do occasionally play Clans, I find my TTK is very short compared to my IS Mechs. My Clanners feel squishy while even my Excel IS Mechs feel tough. I'm not afraid to tackle anything that moves with my IS Mechs, but I often think twice about it when using my Clan Mechs. They feel vulnerable, not powerful. They feel restrictive, not exciting. Nerfing them further will only serve to make greater this disparity. Any small niche they may have in the defunct CW is completely outweighed by the ludicrous nature of what the Clans have become.
...

Which Clan mechs and loadouts are you using? I suspect that you might be using sub-par ones to make this judgement...

[Sjorpha]

WM Quicksilver, on 16 August 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

This comes up in every thread, if IS XL's lose their side torso death that they retain from TT, what's to say they can't deviate from TT with regards to Standard Engines.

Nothing, except the fact that I don't like the idea. I would much rather see Clans die from losing 1 ST than IS XL surviving it.

Quote

The LFE doesn't solve anything because the IS have very few weapons that are actually better than Clan stuff (lurms not counting because, lurms). You are deluding yourself if you think that magically fixes the parity. At best, it mitigates the problem a little, but it is far from a solution.

I'm not arguing that LFE would solve IS vs Clan balance, in fact I think LFE is balanced against the current IS engines, but it's just as unbalanced against Clan XL as they are. Adding LFEs without nerfing Clan XL wouldn't change the balance situation in the slightest, it would just add another engine option.

My whole point is that IS engines are well balanced against each other, which is a good thing that shouldn't be messed with. But the Clan XL is badly balanced against both IS engines and the upcoming Clan standard engine, which is a bad thing and should be fixed so that clan standard are worth taking and clan XL isn't better than IS XL.

In other words the entire engine problem is in the Clan XL being overpowered, so that is what should be changed. Fix the problem where the problem is, because otherwise you mess with well working parts of the game (IS engines).

[Nightmare1]

FupDup, on 16 August 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

Which Clan mechs and loadouts are you using? I suspect that you might be using sub-par ones to make this judgement...

It varies. I tried the boring laser meta and found it to be rather underwhelming. I use a Gauss + PPC build very effectively on my Summoner Prime and twin PPCs on my Kit Fox along with ECM. Both of those builds are powerful. My Timbies are okay. I have one that uses a Gauss with lasers and twin SRMs. Another is built to be a splat boat with MPLs as back up. It's effective. They're just boring. There's no variety. Because everything is locked down on these chassis, there's only a handful of cookie-cutter builds that work. Even then, the Mechs just don't feel tough or resilient. They get focus fired quickly and even in single combat don't seem to have the longevity of their IS counterparts. Shoot, I'd rather run a Thunderbolt over a Timber Wolf right now, because I know my Thunderbolt will outperform it. I've had several 1000+ damage matches with them, but only one with a Timby (LRM boat, that one).

Daishi are powerful but pathetically vulnerable and something of a joke.

Adders are cute and that's about it.

Novas got a nice buff recently, but I don't really have any reason to run them now unless I want to jump snipe with PPCs or run the SPL meta. I'd rather not do either since I already have enough PPC Clan Mechs and SPLs just don't interest me.

I haven't even touched my Warhawks.

Stormcrows are okay, but they don't impress me much. I'd rather run HBKs, Enforcers, Cents, and SHDs instead. They're just more fun and feel more like MechWarrior.

I miss the Clan Mechs we had in MW4. You could run pretty much whatever you wanted on them and have fun. Here, you're restricted to only a couple of builds that actually work. If PGI would make the Clans equal to the IS, then they would actually be fun again. Until then, they're just sub-par. Throw in the massive amount of nerfing, and the Clans just don't have the firepower or battlefield longevity, on average, to beat the IS.

My troll builds for IS Mechs kick Clan butt, but even the cookie-cutter meta builds for the Clans have trouble beating a competent IS pilot in 1v1. That's ludicrous to me. And yet, here we are with another hare-brained "Nerf it!" thread.

Here, check out these vids:





Both were made well-before the latest round of Clan nerfs, yet the fabled T-Wolf still doesn't hold up to snuff. It's disappointing. In one round, you see me kill two of them that were teamed-up to fight me while piloting a Shadowhawk. In the second vid, you see the same two Timbies take on my BLR. I still kill one of them and nearly kill the other before it gets me.

In MWO, the Clans underperform compared to the IS. End of story.

[FupDup]

Nightmare1, on 16 August 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

It varies. I tried the boring laser meta and found it to be rather underwhelming.

Which mechs? Did you use too many lasers and thus have too much heat output, or not enough laser sand too little alpha?

Do note that, in general, laser vomit is basically about trading salvos from behind cover. Peek out, fire, hide. Punch big holes in people before they get in range. In a sustained/direct fight it tends to not be as effective.

Nightmare1, on 16 August 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

I use a Gauss + PPC build very effectively on my Summoner Prime and twin PPCs on my Kit Fox along with ECM. Both of those builds are powerful.

That Fox sounds like it's really hot...

Nightmare1, on 16 August 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

My Timbies are okay. I have one that uses a Gauss with lasers and twin SRMs. Another is built to be a splat boat with MPLs as back up. It's effective. They're just boring. There's no variety. Because everything is locked down on these chassis, there's only a handful of cookie-cutter builds that work. Even then, the Mechs just don't feel tough or resilient. They get focus fired quickly and even in single combat don't seem to have the longevity of their IS counterparts. Shoot, I'd rather run a Thunderbolt over a Timber Wolf right now, because I know my Thunderbolt will outperform it. I've had several 1000+ damage matches with them, but only one with a Timby (LRM boat, that one).

In terms of variety, the Mad Cat actually can be built in a lot of different ways because of Omnipods and the mech's general traits. It can do almost any role except for ballistic boating, really. In some ways I think of them as a heavy-class Shadow Hawk on steroids.

The focus fire thing is partly because of the mech's reputation for being so good, it is what it is.


In terms of locked-down construction, it really depends on which mech we're talking about...in the Mad Cat's case, it actually doesn't get hurt much by this. Endo-Steel is pretty much an auto-equip item, so having Endo locked is a strength instead of a weakness. Clan Ferro is in a similar spot, being much smaller than IS Ferro and slightly lighter (making it viable for heavies and some assaults). The engine might possibly be a few sizes too large, but it's not too bad...I might prefer a 350 or maybe even a 325, but a 375 is able to work because of the mech's other benefits.

Nightmare1, on 16 August 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

Daishi are powerful but pathetically vulnerable and something of a joke.

The Daishi is one of the few mechs that requires special team considerations to work at its best...the disorganized/chaotic nature of Puglandia doesn't always suit it, because people are prone to NASCAR'ing and leaving them behind.

Nightmare1, on 16 August 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

Adders are cute and that's about it.

It's called the Badder/Sadder for a reason.

Nightmare1, on 16 August 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

Novas got a nice buff recently, but I don't really have any reason to run them now unless I want to jump snipe with PPCs or run the SPL meta. I'd rather not do either since I already have enough PPC Clan Mechs and SPLs just don't interest me.

A build with about 6 ERML and a bunch of DHS can be a nice midrange poker. I used to run a mix of 6 ERML + 6 ERSL during the invasion, but the heat increases probably invalidate that build...probably remove a few lasers from it. ERSL's are nice for the Nova because you can get an alpha of 30 per arm...short range though.

Nightmare1, on 16 August 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

I haven't even touched my Warhawks.

It's a nice assault for being abnormally fast and agile (like, really huge torso twist radius) for its class/size, along with being able to pack alright payloads... The Warhawk unfortunately is just awkward to build with because of having Ferro + 20 DHS. The 4 LPL build has been very viable and strong at continuous midrange DPS even before the Clan LPL buffs, and with the new 13 damage per LPL (along with WHK quirks) it's sexytime. Quirks made the 4 ERPPC build threatening as well, as far as I've seen. Some people boat Lurms in them, which is kinda derpy but it can work.

Nightmare1, on 16 August 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

Stormcrows are okay, but they don't impress me much. I'd rather run HBKs, Enforcers, Cents, and SHDs instead. They're just more fun and feel more like MechWarrior.

How so?

I'm going to try to guess that it might because the SCR doesn't really have a built-in weakness/fatal flaw/kryptonite of any form? It has good durability, good speed/agility, and can pack a punch...while many mechs (particularly IS mechs) having to either have weird engines (too high or too low), low weapon payload, or low durability (hitboxes), or even a combination of those. :\

This might also be why you don't like the Mad Cat much...but to be fair, I don't really like the Mad Cat either, I've always preferred the Loki and Cauldron Born (higher hardpoint mounts are neat).

Nightmare1, on 16 August 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

I miss the Clan Mechs we had in MW4. You could run pretty much whatever you wanted on them and have fun. Here, you're restricted to only a couple of builds that actually work. If PGI would make the Clans equal to the IS, then they would actually be fun again. Until then, they're just sub-par. Throw in the massive amount of nerfing, and the Clans just don't have the firepower or battlefield longevity, on average, to beat the IS.

MW4 made Omnimechs and Battlemechs a mostly fluff difference instead of gameplay difference (except for a few Omni hardpoints here and there)...I kind of like different construction types for "flavor" (not saying that MWO's exact system is perfect ATM).

Edited by FupDup, 16 August 2015 - 10:47 AM.

[Nightmare1]

FupDup, on 16 August 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Which mechs? Did you use too many lasers and thus have too much heat output, or not enough laser sand too little alpha?

Do note that, in general, laser vomit is basically about trading salvos from behind cover. Peek out, fire, hide. Punch big holes in people before they get in range. In a sustained/direct fight it tends to not be as effective.



That Fox sounds like it's really hot...



In terms of variety, the Mad Cat actually can be built in a lot of different ways because of Omnipods and the mech's general traits. It can do almost any role except for ballistic boating, really. In some ways I think of them as a heavy-class Shadow Hawk on steroids.

The focus fire thing is partly because of the mech's reputation for being so good, it is what it is.


In terms of locked-down construction, it really depends on which mech we're talking about...in the Mad Cat's case, it actually doesn't get hurt much by this. Endo-Steel is pretty much an auto-equip item, so having Endo locked is a strength instead of a weakness. Clan Ferro is in a similar spot, being much smaller than IS Ferro and slightly lighter (making it viable for heavies and some assaults). The engine might possibly be a few sizes too large, but it's not too bad...I might prefer a 350 or maybe even a 325, but a 375 is able to work because of the mech's other benefits.



The Daishi is one of the few mechs that requires special team considerations to work at its best...the disorganized/chaotic nature of Puglandia doesn't always suit it, because people are prone to NASCAR'ing and leaving them behind.



It's called the Badder/Sadder for a reason.



A build with about 6 ERML and a bunch of DHS can be a nice midrange poker. I used to run a mix of 6 ERML + 6 ERSL during the invasion, but the heat increases probably invalidate that build...probably remove a few lasers from it. ERSL's are nice for the Nova because you can get an alpha of 30 per arm...short range though.



It's a nice assault for being abnormally fast and agile (like, really huge torso twist radius) for its class/size, along with being able to pack alright payloads... The Warhawk unfortunately is just awkward to build with because of having Ferro + 20 DHS. The 4 LPL build has been very viable and strong at continuous midrange DPS even before the Clan LPL buffs, and with the new 13 damage per LPL (along with WHK quirks) it's sexytime. Quirks made the 4 ERPPC build threatening as well, as far as I've seen. Some people boat Lurms in them, which is kinda derpy but it can work.



How so?

I'm going to try to guess that it might because the SCR doesn't really have a built-in weakness/fatal flaw/kryptonite of any form? It has good durability, good speed/agility, and can pack a punch...while many mechs (particularly IS mechs) having to either have weird engines (too high or too low), low weapon payload, or low durability (hitboxes), or even a combination of those. :\

This might also be why you don't like the Mad Cat much...but to be fair, I don't really like the Mad Cat either, I've always preferred the Loki and Cauldron Born (higher hardpoint mounts are neat).



MW4 made Omnimechs and Battlemechs a mostly fluff difference instead of gameplay difference (except for a few Omni hardpoints here and there)...I kind of like different construction types for "flavor" (not saying that MWO's exact system is perfect ATM).

I've tried virtually everything with my Clan Mechs and just get tired of them quickly. I've put up some impressive matches with them, sure, but they don't feel as satisfying. The Mechs feel too restrictive. If I go too far off the meta reservation, then the Mech isn't any good. That's not the same with IS Mechs. I can run fun builds on those without any real issues. They might be more difficult to play, but I can still pull out good damage and kill numbers and have fun doing it. The Clans just don't give me much latitude for construction. To be honest, playing Legos with my Mechs is as much fun as actually running them (it's also one reason why I stay broke most of the time).

Yes, that Kit Fox is very hot, but it's also very rewarding. Most of my Clan Mechs run substantially cooler than that.

I've been in this game a long time, ran Clans quite a lot early on, and understand the mechanics and differences between the IS and Clans very well. It's this familiarity that leads me to be unimpressed by the Clans and to prefer my IS Mechs instead. If you see the video I posted early, you'll notice that I use a 50 ton Enforcer to take on four Clan Mechs at the same time and win. I don't think I've ever seen that happen with the roles reversed.

As for feeling like MechWarrior, to me, MechWarrior is the sum-total of the game itself. Being able to construct your Mech however you want and run it is part of that. I want to yank out engines and cram new ones in, switch Omnipods and weapons at will, change modification options, etc., etc., etc. In MWO, about the only thing I can do is change Omnipods and weapons. JJs, Heat Sinks, and engines are all locked. That's not MechWarrior. The Clans are supposed to feel very powerful. They don't here, which is, again, not MechWarrior.

I really miss the sized hardpoints and full customization options of MW4 more than anything else.

[Pjwned]

WM Quicksilver, on 16 August 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

So rather than fix the problem, just add some power creep, sounds about right...

And power creeping the holy hell out of XL (and STD?) engines is somehow not worse in that regard?

Wow.

Additionally, even if adding LFEs was simply seen as adding more power creep, which it's not really as long as the penalties are balanced properly, I'm saying that clan XL engines currently need to be nerfed in the form of a real penalty for losing 20% of the engine (hint: like LFEs) which is kind of the opposite of adding power creep.

[Wintersdark]

Pjwned, on 16 August 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

And power creeping the holy hell out of XL (and STD?) engines is somehow not worse in that regard?

Wow.

Additionally, even if adding LFEs was simply seen as adding more power creep, which it's not really as long as the penalties are balanced properly, I'm saying that clan XL engines currently need to be nerfed in the form of a real penalty for losing 20% of the engine (hint: like LFEs) which is kind of the opposite of adding power creep.

It's not even really a question. The engine disparity is the single largest balance issue, IS vs. Clan. A lack of customization options isn't a good balancing method, as it just makes mechs either good or bad based on how ideal the fixed options are.

Buffing the IS engines just as you say adds more power creep, and that's bad. So, Clan XL must be nerfed. Severely. If you lose a ST in a clan mech and are horrifically crippled, the Clan XL is still better than an IS XL. There should be a substantial speed penalty, an increased heat penalty...

And even then, Clan's still benefit from having better XL engines. Particularly with IIC mechs and Standard engine options coming.

Yeah, it'll hurt the bad clan mechs a lot. They'll be more bad than they were before. *shrugs* The Great Rebalance will hopefully fix that. But if Clan XL's remain so much better than IS engines, then that will happen at a severe cost in other places to try to balance the factions... that'll be weapons. Clan weapons don't need to be nerfed more... but they will be, if the Clan XL isn't.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sjorpha, on 16 August 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

In other words the entire engine problem is in the Clan XL being overpowered, so that is what should be changed. Fix the problem where the problem is, because otherwise you mess with well working parts of the game (IS engines).

And my problem with that idea is this:

• The IS XL engine is the only engine that dies through side torso destruction, and death is harsher than any penalties you can stack on a mech. Sure you can close the gap, but it is still not equivalent.
  
• It is confusing to new players who have no prior knowledge of TT rules. Convoluted "fixes" to convoluted rules, I feel like we have seen that before. Not really a huge point, but it does matter a little bit on whether this is actually beneficial to the game at all.
  
• It still doesn't really make engines a real choice, because hitboxes, weight class, and max engine rating pretty much determine what engine is most effective. LFE would be a goto engine on the heavier mediums as well as assaults like the Crab.
  
• Buffing IS engines buffs the IS mechs up to the TTK level of the Clans which are honestly about right in the overall scheme of things. The only problem is that the IS can't quite match the TTK without artificial boosts like quirks without sacrificing too much firepower. Notice this power creeps all engines rather than outright making the LFE the best engine for mediums and some heavies.

Quoting my post on reddit about the balancing of Clan XLs:

Quote

I'm going to repeat myself again, but as far as engines go, I would love to see them break tradition and go a more tangible route so that hitboxes don't necessarily determine the usefulness of an engine and so that mechs like the Atlas aren't borderline crazy for mounting an IS XL.
Remove the side torso destruction penalties (Death included). To make Standards more enticing, make it so they double the internals of all torsos when mounted and have a higher heat cap. Sorry, but MW4 did it right in this regard.
Also, PGI, please untie agility from speed, the Stormcrow being as agile as the Adder without quirks is absolutely ridiculous.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 16 August 2015 - 01:51 PM.

[Pjwned]

WM Quicksilver, on 16 August 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

And my problem with that idea is this:The IS XL engine is the only engine that dies through side torso destruction, and death is harsher than any penalties you can stack on a mech. Sure you can close the gap, but it is still not equivalent.

It is confusing to new players who have no prior knowledge of TT rules. Convoluted "fixes" to convoluted rules, I feel like we have seen that before. Not really a huge point, but it does matter a little bit on whether this is actually beneficial to the game at all.

Both of these points are addressed by simply acknowledging that the significant weight savings of XL engines needs a significant drawback, and I don't see how either the rules or the suggested fixes are so convoluted, or at least not any more so than proposed alternatives that are questionably sound.

Quote

It still doesn't really make engines a real choice, because hitboxes, weight class, and max engine rating pretty much determine what engine is most effective. LFE would be a goto engine on the heavier mediums as well as assaults like the Crab.

Buffing IS engines buffs the IS mechs up to the TTK level of the Clans which are honestly about right in the overall scheme of things. The only problem is that the IS can't quite match the TTK without artificial boosts like quirks without sacrificing too much firepower. Notice this power creeps all engines rather than outright making the LFE the best engine for mediums and some heavies.

The only thing that adding LFEs doesn't solve is making XL engines always attractive on heavier, slower mechs with huge torso hitboxes, and to be honest I don't see such a problem with that because they already have a lot of tonnage to work with. It's also worth noting that XL engines still can be used on big assault mechs to load up some crazy firepower, it just tends to be a gimmicky glass cannon build.

As far as LFEs being power creeped into always being the best choice for a number of mechs, that's still wrong because at only 25% weight savings (instead of 50%) it would not always be a clear-cut decision to deal with engine damage penalties (on top of losing everything on that side) when a side torso is lost, but of course it would be an option for peoples' builds and that's fine.

[cSand]

well after almost 3 months of being gone I'm glad to see people still fear the big bad clan mechs and their mommy-its-not-fair engines


lol

diddums!!

[Mcgral18]

cSand, on 16 August 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

well after almost 3 months of being gone I'm glad to see people still fear the big bad clan mechs and their mommy-its-not-fair engines


lol

diddums!!

And I see people still don't read the OP.