149 replies to this topic

[borisof007]

It's sad that I have to keep writing posts like this over months of time, seeing little to no change on the issue. PGI, and certainly some of the community given the forum responses, don't care about solo PUG players. This is a large issue for the game and it's player base as well.

Here's the main issue, broken down easy, a breakdown of why the common answers aren't good ones, and what can be done to fix it:

Solo queue for Community Warfare is a travesty, with long wait times, empty enemy team matchups, pug stomps from 12 mans, and a lack of good response from both PGI and the community itself. Typical responses have ranged from "just join a unit then" to "Don't even queue for CW as a solo player, it's a waste". Here's why both of those responses are bad.

1. Just join a unit then - This is a dumb statement to make. I didn't back this game to get together with 11 others just to enjoy CW, a pillar that was stated at the beginning of the fundraising drive. This, to me, feels like a cop out from people that are already in dedicated units doing this anyway. There are great players who don't have the necessary time or energy to dedicate themselves to a 12 man group and just want to contribute individually. Solo players need to feel INCLUDED in order to play more and contribute more. The bigger and more active the CW world gets, the more people will want to be a part of it. It's simple gravity.

2. Don't even queue - Also stupid. CW is the reason why I thought this game was going to be great. To require me to join 11 others just to be able to participate in any action, or to force me to sit for 20 minutes only to face an empty field for an enemy, is detrimental to the game's growth as well. It serves no good to NOT participate in CW, but it's nearly impossible to enjoy it in its current state as a solo player. This makes it so bad that I don't even want to play, and I LOVE mechwarrior and its IP. As such, I've refused to play out of protest.


I've had a few ideas about how to fix this and it seems at least that Russ has "considered" having a better or re-designed solo queue, but I've seen no evidence of any sincere effort to re-tool the MM system. It seems that PGI cares more about elo balancing and quirks than to fix a system that would allow the game to grow more. Pandering to your existing userbase is important, but making sure your game is accessible is also equally important. By not fixing MM, we're shooting ourselves in the foot by boring out new players really fast who can't have a more immersed gameplay experience through CW and are forced instead to just do Skirmish OVER AND OVER AND OVER. Anyone remember Beta days with Forrest Colony as the only map with skirmish as the only option? Yeah, got old REAL fast. That's how new players are going to feel when they can't play CW and are told "Just join a unit".

I'll end with some suggestions I've typed probably a dozen times on the forums over the past 6 months at least:

1. We need a combined, solo (read: 1-4 player groups) community warfare queue. We NEED. NEED this. 12 mans can get their own queue, they'll have their competitive fix, but the solo queue crowd needs their own bucket. This would normally segregate a userbase further than it normally is, however.....

2. Combine the ability to queue for any planet into just a SINGLE "attack" or "defense" queue that would assign you to a planet once enough team members from both sides are lined up and ready. Flow should look like this:

User gets small party ready (1-4 players only) or decides to solo queue, selects mech(s) to use, selects "attack" or "defense", MM system then pulls player(s) together to look for other lobbies with similar ELO ratings that need said players. Matches them together and lobby starts. Lobby countdown timer starts where players can vote on a map, one of 3 for example, and weather/time conditions get randomized. Match starts.

This would improve the game immensely and these changes wouldn't be too terribly difficult to implement either. They make sense and those systems have been used by other largely popular online games with success.

I would love any feedback at all here. I don't think I'm far off in saying there's a ton of solo players out there that would be playing a hell of a lot more if the system allowed for such play.

Edited by borisof007, 06 July 2015 - 01:06 PM.

[Throat Punch]

If 12 man premades didn't have solo pugs to roflstomp who would they have? Think of the premades!

[borisof007]

Mors Draco, on 06 July 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

If 12 man premades didn't have solo pugs to roflstomp who would they have? Think of the premades!

lol ;-)

[Trev Firestorm]

The C stands for Community.

You don't /have/ to do #1 but that is what this mode is for so any complaints about solo queuing are invalid. If you don't want a unit then at least join your faction teamspeak or actually use ingame coms.

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 06 July 2015 - 01:22 PM.

[Myray]

solo queue isnt that bad if you use the call of arms on primetimes sure sometimes its a bit waiting time and there is always the possebility to face an unit but it doesnt happen to me that much mostly games that i enjoy
its only bad outside of the primetime and thats mostly when i want to start a match of cw

[1453 R]

The problem you're running into, Boris, is that Community Warfare was designed for people who, in short, demanded just exactly the situation you're trying to reverse. They demanded that Piranha make the mode as unforgiving as possible to solo players. You may not have been around the forums while this was happening, but there was actually quite a lot of push by the folks who'd been clamoring for CW the longest to lock solos out of the game mode altogether.

The people who really pushed CW through have a Vision for the game, and that Vision does not include solo players. They give you those two answers - "join a unit!" or "don't queue for CW then!" because in their ideal world every single CW match ever is a prebuilt 12-man unit team going against another prebuilt 12-man unit team. There are no pugs, there are no solos. They feel like being part of a unit is something to be proud of and to work towards, and that there is a unit for everyone and thus there is no excuse for not being part of an organized unit. They don't like to drop solo, they don't like to drop against solos, and most of them rather wish that the regular queue would vanish altogether, thusly and thereby forcing everyone in the game to either find a unit to fight for in CW or to leave MWO.

The fact that this position is beyond insane never seems to penetrate with them.

It's a fundamental ideological difference you're never really going to resolve. Unfortunately, as the regular queue is increasingly configured for fast, hassle-free solo drops, CW is going to remain the stronghold of the organized units who will continue to wonder why ninety percent of the playerbase is dropping solo in the regular queue instead of joining a unit so they can put in their mandatory 10h/week training time in order to maybe one day qualify for one of the unit's coveted and highly limited CW group slots and Commence Having Fun.

For further evidence of this mentality, see Trev Firestorm, two posts above this one. And what will doubtlessly be many more to follow.

Edited by 1453 R, 06 July 2015 - 01:26 PM.

[Trev Firestorm]

You seem to have a rather twisted idea of what a unit does. Sure the super hardcore try hards practice and have other strict requirements, most dont get that serious. And did I ever say anything about locking out solos? No I said play like a community, use comms, not doing so is not playing as a community and therefore not the purpose of this mode.

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 06 July 2015 - 01:32 PM.

[zagibu]

I played some CW when it was new and again during the events, but I didn't find it very enjoyable.

[Throat Punch]

1453 R, on 06 July 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

The problem you're running into, Boris, is that Community Warfare was designed for people who, in short, demanded just exactly the situation you're trying to reverse. They demanded that Piranha make the mode as unforgiving as possible to solo players. You may not have been around the forums while this was happening, but there was actually quite a lot of push by the folks who'd been clamoring for CW the longest to lock solos out of the game mode altogether.

The people who really pushed CW through have a Vision for the game, and that Vision does not include solo players. They give you those two answers - "join a unit!" or "don't queue for CW then!" because in their ideal world every single CW match ever is a prebuilt 12-man unit team going against another prebuilt 12-man unit team. There are no pugs, there are no solos. They feel like being part of a unit is something to be proud of and to work towards, and that there is a unit for everyone and thus there is no excuse for not being part of an organized unit. They don't like to drop solo, they don't like to drop against solos, and most of them rather wish that the regular queue would vanish altogether, thusly and thereby forcing everyone in the game to either find a unit to fight for in CW or to leave MWO.

The fact that this position is beyond insane never seems to penetrate with them.

It's a fundamental ideological difference you're never really going to resolve. Unfortunately, as the regular queue is increasingly configured for fast, hassle-free solo drops, CW is going to remain the stronghold of the organized units who will continue to wonder why ninety percent of the playerbase is dropping solo in the regular queue instead of joining a unit so they can put in their mandatory 10h/week training time in order to maybe one day qualify for one of the unit's coveted and highly limited CW group slots and Commence Having Fun.

For further evidence of this mentality, see Trev Firestorm, two posts above this one. And what will doubtlessly be many more to follow.

This is wrong for so many reasons...

[Kristov Kerensky]

No offense, but what part of Community Warfare screams out SOLO to you exactly? Is it the Community part? Or the Warfare part? I mean, neither of those words, in English at any rate, imply or directly mean solo. Again, no offense, but you ARE complaining that solo players aren't catered to in the Community Warfare arena, something we were told in 2011 when we were first told about this game, was all about the Clans and the Houses and their Merc units duking it out and playing out the Clan Invasion, as well as the Houses doing their raids and normal harrassment amongst themselves. Lonewolves, who were mentioned as part of the overall playerbase, were supposed to hire on as Mercs and fill out the slots for House/Mercs who didn't have enough players to drop otherwise.

In other words, the Lone Wolf player was EXPECTED to work with the House and Merc units in order to play in the CW arena, they weren't expected to BE the CW playerbase, just fill in where needed, extras in other words.

I drop in CW as a solo player more often than not, and I don't enjoy the longer waits, but that's part of the deal when dropping solo in CW, so I accept that. I also do what I can to cut down that time by looking at the planets I can Attack/Defend and check the ques, really helps to get on a planet that NEEDS players instead of being the only player attacking/defending a planet.

Facing large units in CW is to be expected, and we have ingame VOIP, so it's not exactly difficult to TALK to the others on your team and organize, seems to be pretty common when I drop solo in CW, so if you aren't doing that, that's really totally on you. PGI gave us the tools WE demanded to allow better teamwork for the solo players, failure to use them falls entirely on the players.

And that whole 'I don't have time' for a team bs, please, give it a break already. SRM, the unit I'm XO of, we don't DO team practices, we don't demand you be online in MWO at set times or for X hours a week/day/month/year, you don't have to follow some strict and 500 page long set of rules, none of that. We expect 3 things from anyone in SRM

1) be a TEAM player
2) have fun
3) be an adult, we are, and we're not polite, soft spoken or nice generally, so you'd best be able to deal with it

IF you can do those 3 things, we're happy to have you with us. And we're one of, what, hundreds of units now, that are ALL exactly like that, be a team player, have fun, be able to deal with our personalities(some are adult, some are very clean language, some are religious, etc), and that's ALL we, as a unit, require of anyone who's a member of our unit. 4th unspoken rule is don't use exploits/hacks, but if you have to be told that, you can jump out of the dropship as soon as we undock from the Jumpship, got it, good.

Not all organized units are comp teams, nor are we all organized for that matter, so that argument is SO bs it's not funny.

You are an anti-social player who wants PGI to cater to you specifically, in a game mode that's called COMMUNITY WARFARE, so why in all the heavens and hells should it cater to anti-social solo only players?

[mark v92]

Kristov Kerensky, on 06 July 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

No offense, but what part of Community Warfare screams out SOLO to you exactly? Is it the Community part? Or the Warfare part? I mean, neither of those words, in English at any rate, imply or directly mean solo. Again, no offense, but you ARE complaining that solo players aren't catered to in the Community Warfare arena, something we were told in 2011 when we were first told about this game, was all about the Clans and the Houses and their Merc units duking it out and playing out the Clan Invasion, as well as the Houses doing their raids and normal harrassment amongst themselves. Lonewolves, who were mentioned as part of the overall playerbase, were supposed to hire on as Mercs and fill out the slots for House/Mercs who didn't have enough players to drop otherwise.

In other words, the Lone Wolf player was EXPECTED to work with the House and Merc units in order to play in the CW arena, they weren't expected to BE the CW playerbase, just fill in where needed, extras in other words.

I drop in CW as a solo player more often than not, and I don't enjoy the longer waits, but that's part of the deal when dropping solo in CW, so I accept that. I also do what I can to cut down that time by looking at the planets I can Attack/Defend and check the ques, really helps to get on a planet that NEEDS players instead of being the only player attacking/defending a planet.

Facing large units in CW is to be expected, and we have ingame VOIP, so it's not exactly difficult to TALK to the others on your team and organize, seems to be pretty common when I drop solo in CW, so if you aren't doing that, that's really totally on you. PGI gave us the tools WE demanded to allow better teamwork for the solo players, failure to use them falls entirely on the players.

And that whole 'I don't have time' for a team bs, please, give it a break already. SRM, the unit I'm XO of, we don't DO team practices, we don't demand you be online in MWO at set times or for X hours a week/day/month/year, you don't have to follow some strict and 500 page long set of rules, none of that. We expect 3 things from anyone in SRM

1) be a TEAM player
2) have fun
3) be an adult, we are, and we're not polite, soft spoken or nice generally, so you'd best be able to deal with it

IF you can do those 3 things, we're happy to have you with us. And we're one of, what, hundreds of units now, that are ALL exactly like that, be a team player, have fun, be able to deal with our personalities(some are adult, some are very clean language, some are religious, etc), and that's ALL we, as a unit, require of anyone who's a member of our unit. 4th unspoken rule is don't use exploits/hacks, but if you have to be told that, you can jump out of the dropship as soon as we undock from the Jumpship, got it, good.

Not all organized units are comp teams, nor are we all organized for that matter, so that argument is SO bs it's not funny.

You are an anti-social player who wants PGI to cater to you specifically, in a game mode that's called COMMUNITY WARFARE, so why in all the heavens and hells should it cater to anti-social solo only players?

You forgot the 'drops mic' part at the end

Edited by mark v92, 06 July 2015 - 01:54 PM.

[pwnface]

Night's Scorn also doesn't have mandatory practices. We have a sometimes weekly 1 or 2 hour practice on Monday nights to work on some player skills and builds to help players get better at the game. Mostly being part of a successful unit comes down to being able to listen (in drops or with builds) and being somewhat competent at the game.

[borisof007]

Community warfare means warfare among a community, not "12 man premade warfare". If this was the case, they should have named it as such and explicitly stated this was their intention. Had I known, I would have not invested the same amount of money or time.

The reason I post this is because I feel betrayed by the same product I want to support. We all want this game to grow, we all want it to succeed, this much is certain. However, to say that we should exclude solo pug players or not cater to them more, just because someone doesn't like playing against solo players, makes zero sense to me.

Here's the main question: Where is the benefit to having the system as it is now, vs how I suggested it? There is no benefit that I can see that makes any logical sense. If the argument is that so 12 mans can play other 12 mans, then just give them their own queue. If the argument is so that people learn how to play together in groups, people will do that regardless as they progress in skill and mech inventory. Those that are truly engaged will seek out the 12 man group play style. Not everyone is interested in pre made groups. Sometimes, as much as a shocker this may come to people, sometimes people just want to play a few matches per day after hopping online without having to deal with a hassle of waiting for a spot to open in a group, or having to form a group. I can contribute very well in any team with zero preparation by simply observing how my teammates are acting on the battlefield and responding appropriately. PGI already integrated VoIP into the game, so there shouldn't be much of a need to continue to push for 12 man premades with Vent/TS running outside.

[stoogah]

1453 R, on 06 July 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

The problem you're running into, Boris, is that Community Warfare was designed for people who, in short, demanded just exactly the situation you're trying to reverse. They demanded that Piranha make the mode as unforgiving as possible to solo players. You may not have been around the forums while this was happening, but there was actually quite a lot of push by the folks who'd been clamoring for CW the longest to lock solos out of the game mode altogether.

The people who really pushed CW through have a Vision for the game, and that Vision does not include solo players. They give you those two answers - "join a unit!" or "don't queue for CW then!" because in their ideal world every single CW match ever is a prebuilt 12-man unit team going against another prebuilt 12-man unit team. There are no pugs, there are no solos. They feel like being part of a unit is something to be proud of and to work towards, and that there is a unit for everyone and thus there is no excuse for not being part of an organized unit. They don't like to drop solo, they don't like to drop against solos, and most of them rather wish that the regular queue would vanish altogether, thusly and thereby forcing everyone in the game to either find a unit to fight for in CW or to leave MWO.

The fact that this position is beyond insane never seems to penetrate with them.

It's a fundamental ideological difference you're never really going to resolve. Unfortunately, as the regular queue is increasingly configured for fast, hassle-free solo drops, CW is going to remain the stronghold of the organized units who will continue to wonder why ninety percent of the playerbase is dropping solo in the regular queue instead of joining a unit so they can put in their mandatory 10h/week training time in order to maybe one day qualify for one of the unit's coveted and highly limited CW group slots and Commence Having Fun.

For further evidence of this mentality, see Trev Firestorm, two posts above this one. And what will doubtlessly be many more to follow.

Then separating the queues will be the perfect solution. Units with premades vs premades only and pug vs pug only, everybody wins. Unless... they like pug stomping. I can't think of one good reason to not separate pugs from units in cw. Pop already is very low... and units don't want to waste time on pugs, right?
Also, some people won't join any units or teamspeak servers... like 70% of pug gamers. We just don't want to. I know how it works, I played clan q3a tdm, rtcw/et, battlefields (good ol' times) and no thank you. I won't join any unit and I won't speak/listen to some random players. I don't want to, I don't like to. If that's the price for playing in CW then I give up and stay awyay.

Edited by stoogah, 06 July 2015 - 02:03 PM.

[mark v92]

borisof007, on 06 July 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Community warfare means warfare among a community, not "12 man premade warfare". If this was the case, they should have named it as such and explicitly stated this was their intention. Had I known, I would have not invested the same amount of money or time.

The reason I post this is because I feel betrayed by the same product I want to support. We all want this game to grow, we all want it to succeed, this much is certain. However, to say that we should exclude solo pug players or not cater to them more, just because someone doesn't like playing against solo players, makes zero sense to me.

Here's the main question: Where is the benefit to having the system as it is now, vs how I suggested it? There is no benefit that I can see that makes any logical sense. If the argument is that so 12 mans can play other 12 mans, then just give them their own queue. If the argument is so that people learn how to play together in groups, people will do that regardless as they progress in skill and mech inventory. Those that are truly engaged will seek out the 12 man group play style. Not everyone is interested in pre made groups. Sometimes, as much as a shocker this may come to people, sometimes people just want to play a few matches per day after hopping online without having to deal with a hassle of waiting for a spot to open in a group, or having to form a group. I can contribute very well in any team with zero preparation by simply observing how my teammates are acting on the battlefield and responding appropriately. PGI already integrated VoIP into the game, so there shouldn't be much of a need to continue to push for 12 man premades with Vent/TS running outside.

the benefit is having shorter wait times. if you want to split up people (group/solo/etc) the wait times will be even longer.

[borisof007]

stoogah, on 06 July 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

Then separating the queues will be the perfect solution. Units with premades vs premades only and pug vs pug only, everybody wins. Unless... they like pug stomping. I can't think of one good reason to not separate pugs from units in cw. Pop already is very low... and units don't want to waste time on pugs, right?
Also, some people won't join any units or teamspeak servers... like 70% of pug gamers. We just don't want to. I know how it works, I played clan q3a tdm, rtcw/et, battlefields (good ol' times) and no thank you. I won't join any unit and I won't speak/listen to some random players. I don't want to, I don't like to. If that's the price for playing in CW then I give up and stay awyay.

I can totally understand where you're coming from too. I played Q3 A LOT. Like, a lot a lot. A lot of CS, BF2, WoW, Lineage 2, tons of online heavy games that require vast amounts of team work. I've never seen a game take an approach that this one does, which is why it's so frustrating. I do not see the logic in the decisions that were made here.

mark v92, on 06 July 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

the benefit is having shorter wait times. if you want to split up people (group/solo/etc) the wait times will be even longer.

Not true.

Make CW the default queue mode instead of skirmish, 1-4 man groups get the "solo" queue, anything above requires the full 12 man premade to queue. Solo vs Solo, 12 man vs 12 man. You're not allowed to choose which planet either, system should assign that for you. This will split groups, but then recombine them as well for faster match queues.

Proof? The skirmish queue takes about 60 seconds. If you make CW "solo", as I've described it, the default mode then solo pug queue CW drops take no time at all. Everyone wins

Edited by borisof007, 06 July 2015 - 02:08 PM.

[mark v92]

borisof007, on 06 July 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

Not true.

Make CW the default queue mode instead of skirmish, 1-4 man groups get the "solo" queue, anything above requires the full 12 man premade to queue. Solo vs Solo, 12 man vs 12 man. You're not allowed to choose which planet either, system should assign that for you. This will split groups, but then recombine them as well for faster match queues.

Proof? The skirmish queue takes about 60 seconds. If you make CW "solo", as I've described it, the default mode then solo pug queue CW drops take no time at all. Everyone wins

wait i kinda lost you there. Skirmish gets replaced by solo cw queue?

also what happens with 5 - 11 man groups?

[pwnface]

borisof007, on 06 July 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

Not true.

Make CW the default queue mode instead of skirmish, 1-4 man groups get the "solo" queue, anything above requires the full 12 man premade to queue. Solo vs Solo, 12 man vs 12 man. You're not allowed to choose which planet either, system should assign that for you. This will split groups, but then recombine them as well for faster match queues.

Proof? The skirmish queue takes about 60 seconds. If you make CW "solo", as I've described it, the default mode then solo pug queue CW drops take no time at all. Everyone wins

This defeats the entire purpose of having Community Warfare. If you can't choose which planet you attack or defend why even bother having a map? I don't understand why players feel entitled to win in a team-based game when they refuse to be part of a team. Ever see people play a MOBA without communication? It doesn't work. It's the same concept.

[borisof007]

mark v92, on 06 July 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

wait i kinda lost you there. Skirmish gets replaced by solo cw queue?

also what happens with 5 - 11 man groups?

Skirmish should have to be selected, not the default queue. Skirmish should be the "practice" area, not the default mode of play. It's why CW suffers so much in its solo queue area.

And 5-11 man groups... sorry, too bad! Either get enough to form a 12 man or split into 4 man groups. Blizzard did that with WoW and it seems to work out, why can't this?

[Mystere]

1453 R, on 06 July 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

The problem you're running into, Boris, is that Community Warfare was designed for people who, in short, demanded just exactly the situation you're trying to reverse. They demanded that Piranha make the mode as unforgiving as possible to solo players. You may not have been around the forums while this was happening, but there was actually quite a lot of push by the folks who'd been clamoring for CW the longest to lock solos out of the game mode altogether.

The people who really pushed CW through have a Vision for the game, and that Vision does not include solo players. They give you those two answers - "join a unit!" or "don't queue for CW then!" because in their ideal world every single CW match ever is a prebuilt 12-man unit team going against another prebuilt 12-man unit team. There are no pugs, there are no solos. They feel like being part of a unit is something to be proud of and to work towards, and that there is a unit for everyone and thus there is no excuse for not being part of an organized unit. They don't like to drop solo, they don't like to drop against solos, and most of them rather wish that the regular queue would vanish altogether, thusly and thereby forcing everyone in the game to either find a unit to fight for in CW or to leave MWO.

The fact that this position is beyond insane never seems to penetrate with them.

It's a fundamental ideological difference you're never really going to resolve. Unfortunately, as the regular queue is increasingly configured for fast, hassle-free solo drops, CW is going to remain the stronghold of the organized units who will continue to wonder why ninety percent of the playerbase is dropping solo in the regular queue instead of joining a unit so they can put in their mandatory 10h/week training time in order to maybe one day qualify for one of the unit's coveted and highly limited CW group slots and Commence Having Fun.

For further evidence of this mentality, see Trev Firestorm, two posts above this one. And what will doubtlessly be many more to follow.

As someone who has only dropped solo since the very beginning, including CW, I think I'm going to have to ask you to back up your claims. You used words like "unforgiving", "quite a lot of push", and "lock solos out". Now spit out the posts that prove your claim. Otherwise you might just be accused of deliberately trying to spread misinformation about CW for your own ulterior motives.

borisof007, on 06 July 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

1. We need a combined, solo (read: 1-4 player groups) community warfare queue. We NEED. NEED this. 12 mans can get their own queue, they'll have their competitive fix, but the solo queue crowd needs their own bucket. This would normally segregate a userbase further than it normally is, however.....

I vehemently oppose totally separate queues. I find it absolutely and unquestionably ridiculous for a game mode meant to simulate interstellar war. What CW needs is more inventive game modes, not more player separation.

Edited by Mystere, 06 July 2015 - 02:18 PM.