83 replies to this topic

[LORD ORION]

Everyone should take one of these in their CW dropdeck.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...62aadb96084fd54

Seriously, do it....

[Joseph Mallan]

LORD ORION, on 06 July 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

Everyone should take one of these in their CW dropdeck.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...62aadb96084fd54

Seriously, do it....

Not bad. Not a fan of Gauss since it go the Trigger delay but I see its potential.

[Escef]

Water Bear, on 06 July 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

Perhaps a nitpick, but I'm confused about the LRM math here. IIRC LRM 10's weigh 5 tons and 20's weigh 10, so they are the same in terms of tonnage efficiency (perhaps not in crits, I don't know). In fact the LRM 15 does not weigh 2 tons less than a 20, it weighs 3 tons less (LRM 15 is 7 tons). The LRM 5 at 2 tons is the most efficient launcher in the game, ton per missile, and the LRM 15 is more efficient ton per missile than the 10 or 20.

What you are missing is the ALRM15 (Artemis LRM15) is 2 tons lighter than a non-Artemis 20 pack (which is the argument that was being made), and that a pair of LRM10s end up with more tightly packed missiles and a higher rate of fire than a single LRM20.

Water Bear, on 06 July 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

The Hunchback and Trebuchet disagree with you.

And they're right to, as they have quirks that go a long way into making them better LRM platforms than mechs that would otherwise be better at the job. A quirked MissileBack with twin LRM10s throws almost as much ordinance into the air as my ALRM50 Battlemaster, and the Hunchie does it for 35 tons less total mass (or a 2 step lower weight class, whichever is most relevant to you).

[SgtMagor]

  http&#58;//www.sarna.net/wiki/images/7/7f/CRS-X_Crossbow.JPG</p>

Edited by SgtMagor, 06 July 2015 - 08:48 AM.

[Escef]

mogs01gt, on 06 July 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

That only seems true in MWO due to poor map design, poor lance concepts and spawn locations. Having 100ct armor is useless when you are behind structures. The team needs that armor!

The team needs to move dynamically, which a 100 ton behemoth just can't do. Armor is for when speed and positioning fail, if armor is your first line of defense than you've already lost.

I'm forced to wonder what kind of insanity would be caused if more people in the various queues took Zeuses and Battlemasters with 375+ rated XL engines. Super-heavy skirmishers can and do work.

[LORD ORION]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 July 2015 - 06:43 AM, said:

Not bad. Not a fan of Gauss since it go the Trigger delay but I see its potential.

I'll throw in the Autohotkey script for free

Put your gauss on group 2 and ERLs on 4
Press Right Mouse
Gauss fires as soon as it is charged, followed by the lasers 50ms later

#InstallMouseHook ; receives input from mouse
#InstallKeyBDHook ; receives input from keyboard

RButton::
send,{2 Down}
sleep,800
send,{2 Up}
Send,{4 Down}
Sleep,50
Send {4 up}
return

[Bishop Steiner]

Water Bear, on 06 July 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

Perhaps a nitpick, but I'm confused about the LRM math here. IIRC LRM 10's weigh 5 tons and 20's weigh 10, so they are the same in terms of tonnage efficiency (perhaps not in crits, I don't know). In fact the LRM 15 does not weigh 2 tons less than a 20, it weighs 3 tons less (LRM 15 is 7 tons). The LRM 5 at 2 tons is the most efficient launcher in the game, ton per missile, and the LRM 15 is more efficient ton per missile than the 10 or 20.

Couple things, I listed an aLRM15, as in LRM15+Artemis in shorthand. 7+1 is 8, or 2 tons less than a 10 ton LRM20.

The LRM10 has a higher RoF than the LRM20 by a full second. Thus, 2 LRM10 is more efficient than an LRM20, and on a mech quirked for it like the HBK-4J, 3.5 seconds faster to reload when maximized.

LRM5s, are indeed the weight to missile champs, and ditto to RoF. BUT, you need to pack 3-5 to be particularly useful, which means they are very hardpoint needy.

For mechs with tons of hardpoints, LRM5s are indeed a great investment (well as great as LRMs can be).
For most mechs the aLRM15 is the best punch to pack.
For a small handful with crazy quirks, LRM10s are useful, but even then really need to be paired.

And TBH, I cannot think of one single instance the LRM20, even with Artemis would be the better choice. Too heavy, too bulky, too slow, too ammo hungry, too hot and too spread on the damage.

But indeed, it is better to pick nits, than noses.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 July 2015 - 07:03 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Escef, on 06 July 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

To be perfectly blunt, the only weight class with much business being an LRM boat in this game is assault. Lights don't really have the tonnage for it, mediums should be skirmisher/strikers and/or pulling maneuver support, and heavies are your main line. Assaults tend to be slow, which is not a detriment to most LRM boats, with enough tonnage to carry good sized launchers, enough heat sinks to use them, enough ammo to last the match, and a couple close in support weapons if things go badly (the classic quad ML backing up LRMs works great).

LRMs in general are not ideal weapons, and based upon map, opponents, and team support can be great or just this side of useless.

Sorry to be blunt, but no.
The LRM60-100 is almost always inefficient use of an Assault mech, that can be using it's armor far more effectively up front.

Mediums and Heavies (HBK-4J, KNT, Treb, SCR,MDD, CPLT) are far better choice.

Not quite the volume of fire, but despite splashy damage numbers, those LRM Assaults seldom do meaningful damage, and against decent players don't even cause panic, while being slow, plump and easy targets for Lights to hunt. LRMAssaults are either situationally OP (Against noobs) or situationally paperweights waiting to die. Especially in Solo Queue (where you can expect no support) and High End Team Play (where you will be rushed and killed long before the LRMs can be useful).

The Lighter Boats tend to pack more accurized weapons (multi-LRM5s or ALRM15s) into more mobile packages, easily able to move with the flow of battle,. and more importantly grab their own locks. They are also much better suited to fight at the Mid ranges, 300-500 meters where LRMs are going to be most efficient (shorter travel time, higher chance of hits) and they can mix their secondary weapons into the fight, while still taking advantage of friendly locks. They lay their damage into more useful clusters and thus kill better, move better and are simply BETTER.

A well piloted 6xLRM5 MDD or HBK-4J can be your best friend in the solo queue. A LRMAssault is just wasted armor, lumbering for their lives from FS9s and Jennies, hoping someone will come rescue them and give them some friendly locks in the process.

Sorry to sound like a dbag, but with very very few exceptions (some LRM45-60 Warhawks, for example, with solid backup weapons) Assaults are just terrible choices for "LRMboating".

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 July 2015 - 07:13 AM.

[Maxx Blue]

I was trying to nicely explain this to an atlas pilot the other night. He insisted that, since he got good damage it was a great way to play an Atlas. I tried to explain that the TEAM needed him closer to the front to help soak damage from pushes and in brawls. I tried to point out how he could take more punishment and stay effective than many other mechs, but I don't think he was swayed by my argument. While the LRM atlas may be good for him, it makes it more difficult for the team as a whole to pull out a win.

[Bishop Steiner]

Maxx Blue, on 06 July 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

I was trying to nicely explain this to an atlas pilot the other night. He insisted that, since he got good damage it was a great way to play an Atlas. I tried to explain that the TEAM needed him closer to the front to help soak damage from pushes and in brawls. I tried to point out how he could take more punishment and stay effective than many other mechs, but I don't think he was swayed by my argument. While the LRM atlas may be good for him, it makes it more difficult for the team as a whole to pull out a win.

And here is as always the crux. People play a team game, but they don't play as a team player.

[Throat Punch]

Maxx Blue, on 06 July 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

I was trying to nicely explain this to an atlas pilot the other night. He insisted that, since he got good damage it was a great way to play an Atlas. I tried to explain that the TEAM needed him closer to the front to help soak damage from pushes and in brawls. I tried to point out how he could take more punishment and stay effective than many other mechs, but I don't think he was swayed by my argument. While the LRM atlas may be good for him, it makes it more difficult for the team as a whole to pull out a win.

See...this train of thought that "ALL ASSAULTS MUST BE DAMAGE SPONGES" is just mind bogglingly wrong. Yes, Assaults can be used in that role, but if the guy using it as a missile boat gets 700-1000+ damage and a couple kills/assists he is helping the team more than he would be on the front line. If he is playing efficiently and effectively because he is good at that role than let him stay in that role. I know light pilots that are absolutely amazing snipers. If they are helping out the team in that position by proving support at range who am I to tell them they are supposed to be scouts? Maybe if they went scouting they would die doing 100 damage in a traditional "scouting build" but in a light "sniper build" they can rack up 600 damage. Which helps the team more?

[Escef]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 July 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

Sorry to sound like a dbag, but with very very few exceptions (some LRM45-60 Warhawks, for example, with solid backup weapons) Assaults are just terrible choices for "LRMboating".

Assault mechs in general are inefficient. They're slow and do not carry appreciably more firepower than heavies, their only advantages being slightly better cooling and increases in armor that are questionable in light of the lower speed. People practically mess their pants over assault mechs, but there's a reason why the heavy section of the queue is normally the most heavily and consistently clogged.

Long story short, of all the weight classes, if you are going to boat LRMs, go assault. A couple of medium specialists can compete in efficiency, but in general your smaller weight classes are more valuable if performing other roles.

[Thorqemada]

The only Armor in ths game is solid cover, mobility and overwhelming supression fire.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mors Draco, on 06 July 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

See...this train of thought that "ALL ASSAULTS MUST BE DAMAGE SPONGES" is just mind bogglingly wrong. Yes, Assaults can be used in that role, but if the guy using it as a missile boat gets 700-1000+ damage and a couple kills/assists he is helping the team more than he would be on the front line. If he is playing efficiently and effectively because he is good at that role than let him stay in that role. I know light pilots that are absolutely amazing snipers. If they are helping out the team in that position by proving support at range who am I to tell them they are supposed to be scouts? Maybe if they went scouting they would die doing 100 damage in a traditional "scouting build" but in a light "sniper build" they can rack up 600 damage. Which helps the team more?

I wish I could agree, but they almos tccertainly could be doing that same role in a lighter mech, freeing up the Big Guys to facetank, where yes, they do kill more efficently.

If you do 1000 damage and only 2 kills? You were sloppy, inefficient. Assault LRMboats post big numbers but they rarely post useful damage. Their kills tend to be vulture kills where they splash already damaged components. Occasionally you can target a lumbering idiot enemy assault who doesn't comprehend the concept of cover or countermeasures (I used to drop with several of those back in the day..Oy vey). And I have done the LRMboat vs the Assault. You can watch paint dry and grass grow faster than your LRMboat can kill a fresh Assault mech.

Give me a guy in a 4J doing 5-600 damage and 4-5 kills, any day of the week thanks.

Fully agree with you on the Light Sniper thing though. Lightsaber Ravens are hands down my biggest pet peeve atm.

Escef, on 06 July 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

Assault mechs in general are inefficient. They're slow and do not carry appreciably more firepower than heavies, their only advantages being slightly better cooling and increases in armor that are questionable in light of the lower speed. People practically mess their pants over assault mechs, but there's a reason why the heavy section of the queue is normally the most heavily and consistently clogged.

Long story short, of all the weight classes, if you are going to boat LRMs, go assault. A couple of medium specialists can compete in efficiency, but in general your smaller weight classes are more valuable if performing other roles.

You're a smart guy, you know I respect you,, and usually you say things that make sense, but sorry on this......

[Escef]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 July 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

You're a smart guy, you know I respect you,, and usually you say things that make sense, but sorry on this......

With a handful of exceptions (Dire Wolf), most assaults do not bring the pain that you think they do. I'm serious. Hell, my brawler King Crab has an up close alpha of 50 (optimum alpha of around 60, but I generally just use the 2xLRM5 as a psychological crutch to give me something to do early game that does not involve over committing myself). 65 ton mechs have alphas ranging from the low 40s to high 50s. For 35 extra tons of mass (and a weight class bump) and a 25 kph speed hit, there's an extra 10 or 15 points of damage and 200 more armor points. It isn't really worth it.

I'm not saying the bigger mechs aren't fun or that good use can't be made of them. Just that most of them do not offer much in the way of advantages over heavies. Just look at the numbers, they don't lie.

[Water Bear]

Mors Draco, on 06 July 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

See...this train of thought that "ALL ASSAULTS MUST BE DAMAGE SPONGES" is just mind bogglingly wrong. Yes, Assaults can be used in that role, but if the guy using it as a missile boat gets 700-1000+ damage and a couple kills/assists he is helping the team more than he would be on the front line. If he is playing efficiently and effectively because he is good at that role than let him stay in that role. I know light pilots that are absolutely amazing snipers. If they are helping out the team in that position by proving support at range who am I to tell them they are supposed to be scouts? Maybe if they went scouting they would die doing 100 damage in a traditional "scouting build" but in a light "sniper build" they can rack up 600 damage. Which helps the team more?

Take an Atlas LRM boat and compare that boat to, say, an HBK-4J or a treb. The mediums will have better LRM damage and at lest as much ammo. Now, take the Atlas you are glorifying and replace it with such a (50t) medium mech. You are likely to see the same performance, or better.

What I am saying is that the performance that an LRM Atlas guy is getting does not justify putting such a build on an Atlas, which does not play to the Atlas's strengths. It is more like evidence that you needed an LRM support mech in that particular match.

The Atlas is simply a sub-optimal (even mediocre to poor) platform for LRMs. If they work it's not because the Atlas is actually a good LRM boat.

Edited by Water Bear, 06 July 2015 - 07:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Maxx Blue, on 06 July 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

I was trying to nicely explain this to an atlas pilot the other night. He insisted that, since he got good damage it was a great way to play an Atlas. I tried to explain that the TEAM needed him closer to the front to help soak damage from pushes and in brawls. I tried to point out how he could take more punishment and stay effective than many other mechs, but I don't think he was swayed by my argument. While the LRM atlas may be good for him, it makes it more difficult for the team as a whole to pull out a win.

But He was not playing a front line brawler. You wouldn't take a Longbow to the front to soak damage, that is not the tactics it is meant for. Any LRM Mech should be slowly advancing in the second or THIRD rank and adding damage to the front line. Soaking up assists and occasionally knocking off a kill or two. Just because its not to your strategic thinking doesn't mean its bad. Trust me as a Brawler, I pray for a missile boat within range and situational awareness. I lock targets as I engage 'em.

LORD ORION, on 06 July 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:

I'll throw in the Autohotkey script for free

Put your gauss on group 2 and ERLs on 4
Press Right Mouse
Gauss fires as soon as it is charged, followed by the lasers 50ms later

#InstallMouseHook ; receives input from mouse
#InstallKeyBDHook ; receives input from keyboard

RButton::
send,{2 Down}
sleep,800
send,{2 Up}
Send,{4 Down}
Sleep,50
Send {4 up}
return

I'd have to look at it, I may want the Gauss macro on a different key on my Naga but thanks!

SgtMagor, on 06 July 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

want one of these so I can missile spam my targets,

That isn't the Crossbow I grew up with, but Boy Howdy it looks sweet!

[Simbacca]

My Atlas-RS runs 2 x LRM15 Artemis with 4 tons ammo, 4 Large Lasers, AMS with 1 ton ammo, and as many double heat sinks that I could fit. But overall that build is meant for longer range engagements.

[Water Bear]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 July 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

That isn't the Crossbow I grew up with, but Boy Howdy it looks sweet!

That's supposed to be a Crossbow?

[Joseph Mallan]

Those large lasers say you can handle yourself in close as well though.

Water Bear, on 06 July 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

That's supposed to be a Crossbow?

Check the Link. Maybe its a Primitive Version.

Quote

CRS-X
The prototype used less sophisticated components, forcing the downgrade of many weapon systems. Each arm carried a pair of LRM-5 launchers and a Medium Laser, while a single Large Laser mounted in the torso provided additional long range firepower. The Primitive Engine drove this version of the Crossbow at a top speed of 64km/h. The bulk of the engine, cockpit, and armor required engineers to devote more tonnage to armor. This would be overcome in later versions of the Crossbow.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 July 2015 - 08:26 AM.