34 replies to this topic

[Colonel Clunge]

I'd like to chat about a theory I have that's been running around my head for a while. Now I will openly admit that I am not the best pilot in the world but I do ok in Mediums and the faster heavies in my mechlab. What I am intolerably bad at piloting is assaults. I've read all the posts about the best way of piloting these beasts - tactical awareness, best time to join the fray, stick with heavies, that sort of thing. But I keep coming back to the point of my post - the way MWO is designed makes it illogical to pilot Assaults.

Here's my reasoning:-

Assaults are massive, therefore they are easier to hit as you can't hide behind anything other than the biggest of cover. Assaults move slow, therefore they are easier to hit as they can't get between cover quickly enough. Assaults turn slowly, therefore they are easier to hit without getting hit back.

Yes, they have more armour, but If you are so massive the opposition can't miss you , it matters little how much armour you have.

Yes, they have loads of powerful weapons, but because torso twist is linked to movement speed (i think), most of the time you can't aim quickly enough to hit anything unless it stupid enough to sit still in front of you. This one I don't get. Why should the speed at which you can move your torso be so closely linked to movement speed?

Assaults are the most expensive mechs to buy in cash and c-bills and for me they simply don't justify the price tag on a dollar per hour of fun equation.

Now I have exaggerated slightly to make the point but can someone let me know if I am missing something here?

I should add that I have not yet unlocked speed tweak for any of my assaults as grinding to get there has been so soul destroying, so perhaps things will change massively if I can muster the patience to get there.

So - am I missing the point of assaults or is the above fair comment?

Cheers

[Azzgaroth]

Colonel Clunge, on 07 July 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

I'd like to chat about a theory I have that's been running around my head for a while. Now I will openly admit that I am not the best pilot in the world but I do ok in Mediums and the faster heavies in my mechlab. What I am intolerably bad at piloting is assaults. I've read all the posts about the best way of piloting these beasts - tactical awareness, best time to join the fray, stick with heavies, that sort of thing. But I keep coming back to the point of my post - the way MWO is designed makes it illogical to pilot Assaults.

Here's my reasoning:-

Assaults are massive, therefore they are easier to hit as you can't hide behind anything other than the biggest of cover. Assaults move slow, therefore they are easier to hit as they can't get between cover quickly enough. Assaults turn slowly, therefore they are easier to hit without getting hit back.

Yes, they have more armour, but If you are so massive the opposition can't miss you , it matters little how much armour you have.

Yes, they have loads of powerful weapons, but because torso twist is linked to movement speed (i think), most of the time you can't aim quickly enough to hit anything unless it stupid enough to sit still in front of you. This one I don't get. Why should the speed at which you can move your torso be so closely linked to movement speed?

Assaults are the most expensive mechs to buy in cash and c-bills and for me they simply don't justify the price tag on a dollar per hour of fun equation.

Now I have exaggerated slightly to make the point but can someone let me know if I am missing something here?

I should add that I have not yet unlocked speed tweak for any of my assaults as grinding to get there has been so soul destroying, so perhaps things will change massively if I can muster the patience to get there.

So - am I missing the point of assaults or is the above fair comment?

Cheers

You pretty much got what assaut are. Big fat slow weapon platform. Hardest mech to pilot for obvious reason. To learn how to do with assault check for Proton video on YouTube. He is probably the best assault pilot in the Word.

[Captain Hindsight]

Well all i can say is they are not played much. When i looked it was always about 10%. Heavys are often more than 50%.
My Problem with assaults is that i am not cautious enough. I feel like i am in that best armored mech with most firepower but then i make one wrong decision in Navigation/Placement and i get shot to pieces.
So i think you got it right... sadly

[Shadey99]

Assaults have differing roles like every other platform... King Crabs, Stalkers, Banshees, Awesome, Zeus, Warhawk, and Direwolves are slightly mobile weapons platforms. Others are relatively quick brawlers: Gargoyle, Executioner, and Victors. Some can fit numerous roles like the Battlemaster (mixed weapon loadouts and access to big engines). And others just often find themselves trying to figure out what they should do or be like the Highlander or Atlas (moving ECM? Sometimes 'slow brawler'?).

However all of them are large compared to lighter mechs and because engines cap out and have considerable diminishing returns, they are not ever going to be as fast as most heavies can be. These combined do make them larger and easier to hit targets. I can target Direwolf side torsos from half a map away and the Direwolf is going to take quite some time to get under cover.

With clan heavies in particular the firepower of Assault mechs has waned compared to their smaller siblings and the difference between 33 tons of pod space in a Timbie and the 45-46 tons of space in a King Crab or Atlas is not very large. Especially with limits on boating large weapons with increased heat penalties. They are smaller, more agile, faster, and have similar heavy weapons loads. The only real downside is lower armor and durability.

[Colonel Clunge]

Azzgaroth, on 07 July 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

You pretty much got what assaut are. Big fat slow weapon platform. Hardest mech to pilot for obvious reason. To learn how to do with assault check for Proton video on YouTube. He is probably the best assault pilot in the Word.

Don't you think they should change the game mechanics then? It feels counter intuitive that assaults are the the mechs you have to be the most cautious with!! I mean, their title even suggest aggression!

[Azzgaroth]

Colonel Clunge, on 07 July 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

Don't you think they should change the game mechanics then? It feels counter intuitive that assaults are the the mechs you have to be the most cautious with!! I mean, their title even suggest aggression!

Do you really want to see 100 kph running Dire wale??? Those beast can boat TON of weapon so...

Edited by Azzgaroth, 07 July 2015 - 08:42 AM.

[Shadey99]

Azzgaroth, on 07 July 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

Do you really want to see 100 kph running Dire wale??? Those beast can boat TON of weapon so...

Specifically just shy of 50 tons worth...

Btw the max speed for any 100 ton mech is 71.3 kph (with speed tweak) and reaching that point gives a max of around 44 tons of space that can be used for weapons. That is what the Boar's Head has btw, though the lack of a clan XL makes it less durable unless you toss in a standard instead.

Edited by Shadey99, 07 July 2015 - 12:27 PM.

[Domoneky]

Assault Mechs are too P2W

[Ascaloth]

For a very long time I felt the same about Assaults, always thinking they should always lead the charge being the tip o' the spear, protecting the others while delivering a powerful punch.

When I started playing Assaults I was finally able to see how I was wrong.

Assaults are damage magnets - you are the biggest, slowest thing in the battlefield. Every one can easily chose a hitbox and hit it hard. Two 'meta' alpha strikes and the hit box is gone (3 on CT, mostly). If an Assault leads a charge it WILL be focused, blinded by screen shake and put down to rest in no time.
As weird as it sounds, Assaults should be use as fire support and LIGHTS should be the tip of the spear, causing chaos, distraction and obligating some mechs to turn their backs and try to repel them while the rest of the team advance.

I have tried the Atlas. Didn't like it. Too big and sluggish, side torsos too easily destroyed.
Tried the King Crab. Good for long range engagements with dual Gauss or quad-UAC/5, too slow to move in and brawl with dual AC/20 effectively. I want to love this mech, but now i just -meh-.
Then I tried the Stalker and LOVED IT. It drives smooth, torso twist and move speed are very good, excellent high mounts for weapons, allows laser boating, missile boating or a mix between the two (nope, I don't own a Misery to use ballistics).
But the Stalker is fragile, very fragile. A side torso can be rip off in no time, taking half of your weapons away, and the CT (front) hitbox is so small that you can swap 1/4 of its armor to the rear without a problem. I think the CT hitbox should be little bigger, and the STs smaller. Anyway, it's an excellent fire support mech.

Note: There are situations where the assaults need to lead the charge, like when invading Mordor on Terra Therma or pushing through the cave in Forest Colony.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

Colonel Clunge, on 07 July 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

Don't you think they should change the game mechanics then? It feels counter intuitive that assaults are the the mechs you have to be the most cautious with!! I mean, their title even suggest aggression!

2 words,situational awareness

like all mechs,assault mechs have different playstyles depending on the chassis.

assaults have peekaboo laserboats,dps monsters,ppc snipers,dedicated brawlers and skirmishers.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Basically speaking, Assault 'mechs are for assault situations. In MWO, you very rarely have an assault situation.

To elaborate- an assault is a heavily armed and armored attack committing large portions of your overall power. Tactically speaking, while a battle is mobile, you should not be assaulting anything- you should be comitting smaller, swifter attacks with forces that can escape combat easily. During these periods of time, your assault forces- slow moving, heavily armed and armored- should not be committing to battle. When should you commit an assault?

• The Opfor is out of mobile forces and can't escape.
  
• The Opfor has reduced forces and the loss of a portion of your assault forces can squeeze a win out more quickly.
  
• The Opfor is 'stuck'- you have them trapped in a corner or cul-de-sac and their only way out is through you, so you might as well put your toughest stuff forwards so they're shooting it instead of your other forces.
  
• The Opfor is too spread out for their mobility and you can mount an assault on a weak point, breaking the enemy line and cutting off smaller groups.

Assault 'mechs are so named because they're meant primarly for use in those situations. Outside of those situations, you're going to be better off with a Heavy or Medium and that's not only how the game is designed but how a lot of real-world combat seems to wind up as well.

What this means for Assault-class 'mechs is that until you reach one of those situations, you need to not be committing them to an attack, assuming your opponent has any collective grasp of tactics (so if you're playing in the individual queue and the opposing force doesn't have any kind of cohesion, you can go ahead and assault anyways- or if the Opfor is deathballing and you need to deathball right back at them.)

You can get around this with some lighter Assault 'mechs by running fairly large engines to get their speed up, but for 90+ tonners specifically, this isn't really feasible, thanks to the way engine tonnages scale up- for a Standard engine it's usually not efficient to go above about 330, and for an XL it's usually not efficient to go above about 340 or 350 (that 340 is because it's an ideal engine weight for an 85-tonner to go at a decent clip, which is the main reason the Battlemaster hasn't fallen into obscurity despite its unfriendly hitboxes.)

It's specifically because of this that I tend to run my heavier assault 'mechs with some LRMs on, even as a non-main weapons element. The ability to contribute indirect fire when the battle isn't in a situation for your assault-class 'mech to commit an actual assault can go a long way to helping you maintain your self control- since it lets you contribute while out of sight, even if all you're contributing is Missile Warnings that prompt enemies to seek cover who might not otherwise. This can also work with long-range direct fire weapons mounted to good peeking hardpoints, but there's a bit more risk there since anyone who notices you will likely be able to tear a hole in your armor or at least weaken it, thus reducing your value in an actual assault (the combat maneuver).

So I'd recommend sparing one or two M hardpoints for ten or fifteen tubes of LRM with a couple of tonnes of ammo, and keeping an eye on your tacmap and an ear on your VOIP. That way you can contribute while you're waiting for a good moment to strike without spending too much of your 'mech's loadout on weapons that don't contribute towards your actual assault. If you're really good at patience and not doing things, you can go without, but you'll spend large amounts of most fights against tactically savvy Opfor pretty much just hunkering down and waiting, moving from cover to cover when you're sure you're not going to get spotted and focused.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 07 July 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

yep assaults need some love, but for the weaknesses i'd trade them any day to be able to press 1 button and instakill a light mech. that feels good every time, just a perfectly landed shot from a slooow machine on a tiny superfast mech, it does a lot of dmg as well it should.
and then you also have to actually manage your heat sometimes because you move so slowly long winded engagements are mandatory and you are riding that 99% like there's no tomorrow so much fun

[SnagaDance]

Colonel Clunge, on 07 July 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

I should add that I have not yet unlocked speed tweak for any of my assaults as grinding to get there has been so soul destroying, so perhaps things will change massively if I can muster the patience to get there.

Well here's a big issue. Not having Speed Tweak unlocked means you haven't finished Eliting them. By a large amount even because I don't know anyone who doesn't unlock Speed Tweak first. And while Speed Tweak is great there is something even better: Doubling your Basics by finishing Elite. That's where the true mobility comes from. Extra turning speed and bigger turning radius, in addition to a nice helping of Heat bonusses.

[DONTOR]

Are any of your assault mechs mastered? The double bascs is a huge deal when piloting assault mechs. Makes them feel SO much better.

[Nightshade24]

Assaults and lights are 2 oppasite ends of the spectrum and both are the hardest sets of mechs to pilot, most often the more and more heavier/ lighter you go the harder and harder it is to pilot...

ie let's look at the 20/25 ton mechs and the 95/100 ton mechs...

Locust... Commando... mistl ynx.... banshee... executioner.... atlas... direwolf... kingcrab...

All of these kinda just die by a wrong step or are hopeless.



Assaults need good tactical and strategic thinking as well as team work. They are very good as juggernauts (slow moving, extreme armour, very good close range weapons. this is what most people mistakenly call a "brawler"). LRM boats (slow-ish to medium speed mechs with lots of LRM's.), Snipers (AC 2, AC 5, PPC, ER PPC, ER large laser, Gauss rifle, etc mechs. often slowish to medium speed as well)
Assaults can do each one very well if you learn how to pilot them well however LRM boat and Juggernaut may be hard to get in grips with at first despite how many angry forumers say LRM's just an EZ mode weapon and have no place in game.

Torso turn, pitch, yaw, arm horizontal and vertical movement and turning speed is connected to engine size which is indirectly connected to speed so you are right.
Speed tweak is important for all mechs and you do need it especially for the heavier 100 tonners as they are often left behind due to how slow they are.
So yea. Also getting all elites gives x2 to all basics, so your turn , arm, pitch, twist, accelerate, decelerate, etc basic skills you got in the basics will get doubled.

[Dawnstealer]

Shadey99, on 07 July 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

With clan heavies in particular the firepower of Assault mechs has waned compared to their smaller siblings and the difference between 33 tons of pod space in a Timbie and the 45-46 tons of space in a King Crab or Atlas is not very large. Especially with limits on boating large weapons with increased heat penalties. They are smaller, more agile, faster, and have similar heavy weapons loads. The only real downside is lower armor and durability.

Especially this - an Atlas has about three seconds of facetime with a Ebon Jag before it's utterly cored through.

[Moldur]

Assaults require patience and awareness. I pull out the founder Atlas every so often and still do 600 or 700+ damage with 3-5 kills.

For most of the round as an assault, I play as support. I take shots of opportunity. I try to look unimportant. I DON'T TAKE DAMAGE. I don't really jump in, because assaults will get easily focused at the beginning of the round if they expose themselves, and a cored whale or atlas is no good.

The most important part is reading an opportunity.
You have to see when you have a favorable opportunity. An assault mech can become a force multiplier in a push. Nothing is more crushing than being midway through a game and coming face to face with an Atlas, Dire, or King Crab at 85 or 90% armor. It does way more good than say, a 90% atlas that comes face to face with a bunch of 85 or 90% heavies and mediums.

This is why your durability is so important. At this point, you've bided your time. Now you've gone in, and are obliterating 70% targets left and right. Your team is helping you. Enemies are focusing you, the assault with almost all your armor intact. The thing is, you don't care about the return fire, because every time you fire, another enemy mech is going down. The more mechs you kill, the less fire you take.

Assaults can do other things as well, but they are better at mopping than anything else. They don't just mop when it's already almost over, they can start the mop when it looks close. Again, 90% king crab rounds the corner, starts blasting AC 40 with his team coming to his aid. It looked like a close game, but now you realize you're done for.

Edited by Moldur, 07 July 2015 - 01:32 PM.

[InspectorG]

Colonel Clunge, on 07 July 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

So - am I missing the point of assaults or is the above fair comment?

Cheers

You get it but to make a Chess analogy, Assaults are like Rooks and Bishops. You set them up, you dont run all over.

Some can brawl, most create firing lines.

IMO, and i started as a light pilot, Start with Stalkers-they peek amazing, Banshees(xl400 Wubshee goes 75kph with speed tweak- strike and harass), Warhawks can do a bit of everything aside from boating dakka...but with the new C-AC patch 2UAC10 may be all you need.

Later get into the slower assaults, Dires are very unforgiving. Stalker LRM boats...dont even.

Easiest advice is stay in the middle of the blob, and let the enemy come to you. DO NOT PEEK unless you are sure its a good idea - let some enemy scrub peek into your alpha.

If you get caught in a NASCAR...start cutting corners on the map. You will need luck and fortune favors the fast/bold.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Azzgaroth, on 07 July 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

Do you really want to see 100 kph running Dire wale??? Those beast can boat TON of weapon so...

Nope, id love to see a lance of lights circle jerking a single Dire Whale, doing little damage, but getting pretty much face planted in 1 or 2 shots.

[Ken Harkin]

Domoneky, on 07 July 2015 - 08:46 AM, said:

Assault Mechs are too P2W

Except that buying an assault and running into the fray is a gaurenteed way to die with less than 100 points damage done.