497 replies to this topic

[TLBFestus]

TWIAFU, on 10 July 2015 - 02:58 AM, said:

And just think how wonderful CW would be if these anti-group solo rambos would actually participate in the core mechanic of CW, grouping/unit play.

Just think how wonderful CW would be i these anti-group solo rambos used the tools they asked for time and again.

No, instead of using what they asked for or participating in core mechanics, everything must change to suit them even though they have an area designed specifically for solo players. They do not want the tools they asked for, they do not want to participate, they do not want to do even the minimal amount of effort to take control of own gameplay. Instead, they want PGI to change everything to suit them. They want the rewards from CW play without participating in CW, just be honest. CW has to change to cater to solo play so they can get the rewards. They do not want to work as a team. They do not want to group. They want the reward for just showing up and not having to take part.

I want a place where teamwork and grouping is central to the experience. That place is CW. You want a solo playground. That is the solo queue. Not asking to take my group into your solo playground and ruin your experience, so don't ruin mine.

I don't get this statement.

First you wax poetic about how wonderful CW would be if solo players participated and played the way you want to play.
Then you dump on them saying that you don't want them to change the way you play.

That's exactly the way most of them feel. They don't want to play the you do. They want to play, rightly or wrongly depending on the mode you like, the way they play.

The simple fact, and I will give this to you, is that even though what you said seems contradictory, is that you are right. The existing form of CW should be played pretty much exactly the way you want it.

The problem is, it's NOT popular. It really doesn't matter if it's not popular because of rewards, group beatdowns, or space monkey infestations. The vast majority do not like it in it's current form.

So...... you can keep it as is, including the withering population, or you need to find some compromise, some solution, to increase the player base. Unfortunately this means that the dedicated CW player is going to have to work to find some compromise with those who aren't interested in order to make them interested.

The only other option is for some massive increase in players, so that the trickle down effect increases the CW population. So yet again, the CW players should be cheer-leading any initiative that makes this game grow. Your best chance is a rising population, especially if you don't want any change to CW (and by that I mean "team oriented").

So get on the Devs backs...make them improve the single player, PUG/solo experience and hope to heck that enough players join up to trickle down and feed CW with the like-minded players you want for CW. That...or accept that you are going to have to find some compromise with the casual player base that brings them into CW.

I'd suggest PGI at least tries to find a way that will allow solo players to drop against solo players in CW, and groups to drop against groups. you know...like they do right now in the non-CW portion of the game. Still...that will mean the 12 mans will always be moaning about the lack of other teams to play against.

[Mystere]

Decadre, on 10 July 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

Won't argue that point.

I think just as that is beating a dead horse, so is blaming PUGs for not wanting to get involved because they don't want to organize etc. When you have twice as many people bringing up time involvement versus getting stomped, the posts in this discussion that bring up PUGs not wanting to get stomped is wasting HHD space on the server that these forums are hosted on.

May I suggest something, and only if you are even remotely willing to do so? (Did I even say that right? )

Track the post history of some of those who currently use "time involvement" as their reason. You'd be very surprised to find out what they changed their tune from. Then correlate that with the day when PGI released numbers that suggested that the "12-man stomp" excuse was bogus.

Edited by Mystere, 10 July 2015 - 10:05 AM.

[Kalimaster]

Lets see. No team work, co cooperative play, players won't use the R key. Constantly getting creamed.

[TWIAFU]

Kalimaster, on 10 July 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

Lets see. No team work, co cooperative play, players won't use the R key. Constantly getting creamed.

Forgot the J key and caps lock.

[Decadre]

Mystere, on 10 July 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

May I suggest something, and only if you are even remotely willing to do so?

Track the post history of some of those who currently use "time involvement" as their reason. You'd be very surprised to find out what they changed their tune from. Then correlate that with the day when when PGI released numbers that suggested that the "12-man stomp" excuse was bogus.

I'm looking... One guy sure likes to complain about JJs and Clan UCs

edit: When did PGI release numbers on the 12-man to help my search some?

Edited by Decadre, 10 July 2015 - 10:06 AM.

[Inveramsay]

You don't need a 12man to cause an all out rout on the other team. Lots of time all you need are four decent players in good builds on voip. Those four players can easily influence the game. Then you have times when 12 mans get stomped to the ground by pugs. The dynamics of this game are very complicated. This is not something that is going to be helped by pushing people in to groups. Instead of forcing solo players out of CW maybe we should force groups out of CW?

[LordBraxton]

Russ wants Esports, and evidently Russ's idea of E-sports is MOBAs. REMOVE THE LANES\GATE\CHOKEPOINTS, otherwise most old school MW fans like me wont touch it

[Mystere]

Decadre, on 10 July 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

I'm looking... One guy sure likes to complain about JJs and Clan UCs

Oh. I forgot to add that you should also peek at the history of the "it's not fun" folks.

Decadre, on 10 July 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

edit: When did PGI release numbers on the 12-man to help my search some?

Search for "group" on this post. It's the first occurrence of the word.

LordBraxton, on 10 July 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

Russ wants Esports, and evidently Russ's idea of E-sports is MOBAs. REMOVE THE LANES\GATE\CHOKEPOINTS, otherwise most old school MW fans like me wont touch it

Lanes are just fine. But what we do need is more variety (i.e. not just MOBA-style battles), much more.

[Decadre]

Mystere, on 10 July 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Oh. I forgot to add that you should also peek at the history of the "it's not fun" folks.


Search for "group" on this post. It's the first occurrence of the word.

Do you mean the post about how few of the groups drop are actually (<1%) are 11-12 man?

I've looked some through some posters here. Not really finding anything, although did find one poster who said time was an issue, but his posting history seem to indicate a history of playing in the CW rather often.

I am not doubting your claims, I certainly believe that there are people who troll and post with the latest flavour of ice cream.

Just having followed this thread for a day or so, and a few others, I don't think the real problem with CW is neccesarily PUGs not wanted to do what the CWers want them to do, and PUG'ers not wanting to get rolled, and CWers treating PUGers so badly.

I think it has to do with other things (like time investment, solo queue being outside CW, etc), and the continual slinging of the same mud over and over is getting everyone no where.

It's been said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting the same results. I'd argue that we are at that point, and need to get away from some of the same tired arguments.

OR

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink from it. Well we need a new horse, a new water hole, and/or new water.

Something has to change, and change to how factions work, faction rewards, or fluff to the map really isn't the something that in my mind needs to change.

[Kin3ticX]

Kalimaster, on 10 July 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

Lets see. No team work, co cooperative play, players won't use the R key. Constantly getting creamed.

Uhhhh, LRMs arnt really going to do much for you in CW. Getting creamed really has nothing to do with someone else's R key. More likely you had so many people trying to run lurms or various wildcat builds it crippled your overwhelming direct fire.

[Kin3ticX]

LordBraxton, on 10 July 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

Russ wants Esports, and evidently Russ's idea of E-sports is MOBAs. REMOVE THE LANES\GATE\CHOKEPOINTS, otherwise most old school MW fans like me wont touch it

If you think the hitscan/gauss attrition is bad now, wait until we get a wide open maps. Seriously just stop and think for a second because there is a reason we don't have wide open maps. Gates, moba lanes, chokepoints, forks, and structures give brawlers a situational chance to shine in what would otherwise be pure ERLL+Gauss attrition where we are poking at each others pixils for 30 min.

[Kain Demos]

Kin3ticX, on 10 July 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

If you think the hitscan/gauss attrition is bad now, wait until we get a wide open maps. Seriously just stop and think for a second because there is a reason we don't have wide open maps. Gates, moba lanes, chokepoints, forks, and structures give brawlers a situational chance to shine in what would otherwise be pure ERLL+Gauss attrition where we are poking at each others pixils for 30 min.

There is a difference between a map with 2 main, large chokepoints and a map with literally dozens that can't all be covered at once.

Imagine a sprawling metropolis---every intersection would be a chokepoint but there is no possible way to have guns on them all. Lights could fit through some alleys/builds/underpasses that heavies and assaults couldn't. Some buildings that only smaller 'mechs can fly to or even use as steps to get to the highest rooftops and give good scouting info.

A desert landscape completely littered with large rocks, boulders, mesas, dry river beds, etc.

A jungle/forest map that has grown up around the ruins of an old military installation/factory network that was taken out in the succession wars. Ruins of huge buildings and concealment from terrain/flora aplenty.

You can can make something not a long range fest without resorting to a 2-lane MOBA inspired map.

Edited by Kain Demos, 10 July 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

TLBFestus, on 10 July 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

I don't get this statement.

First you wax poetic about how wonderful CW would be if solo players participated and played the way you want to play.
Then you dump on them saying that you don't want them to change the way you play.

That's exactly the way most of them feel. They don't want to play the you do. They want to play, rightly or wrongly depending on the mode you like, the way they play.

The simple fact, and I will give this to you, is that even though what you said seems contradictory, is that you are right. The existing form of CW should be played pretty much exactly the way you want it.

The problem is, it's NOT popular. It really doesn't matter if it's not popular because of rewards, group beatdowns, or space monkey infestations. The vast majority do not like it in it's current form.

So...... you can keep it as is, including the withering population, or you need to find some compromise, some solution, to increase the player base. Unfortunately this means that the dedicated CW player is going to have to work to find some compromise with those who aren't interested in order to make them interested.

The only other option is for some massive increase in players, so that the trickle down effect increases the CW population. So yet again, the CW players should be cheer-leading any initiative that makes this game grow. Your best chance is a rising population, especially if you don't want any change to CW (and by that I mean "team oriented").

So get on the Devs backs...make them improve the single player, PUG/solo experience and hope to heck that enough players join up to trickle down and feed CW with the like-minded players you want for CW. That...or accept that you are going to have to find some compromise with the casual player base that brings them into CW.

I'd suggest PGI at least tries to find a way that will allow solo players to drop against solo players in CW, and groups to drop against groups. you know...like they do right now in the non-CW portion of the game. Still...that will mean the 12 mans will always be moaning about the lack of other teams to play against.

Its not "how we want you to play", more like "how we figured out how to play". We can beat it into you until you either nerdrage out or try to emulate. There are also docs around, perhaps pinned even, where I basically show you how to approach CW the way that works.

PGI is probably perplexed given how much bitching we did every time CW was pushed back and now that we have it nobody wants to actually play CW.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 10 July 2015 - 12:07 PM.

[Kain Demos]

Kin3ticX, on 10 July 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

PGI is probably perplexed given how much bitching we did every time CW was pushed back and now that we have it nobody wants to actually play CW.

Given how many years it was delayed and then comes out pretty much featureless (indicating it was on the shelf that whole time) the ones that should be perplexed are the players that believed in them to deliver what was talked about in 2012.

[Throat Punch]

Kin3ticX, on 10 July 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

Uhhhh, LRMs arnt really going to do much for you in CW.

I beg to differ. I run 2 LRM boats in my drop deck for CW, as a solo pugger too, and do extremely well using them. If you know how to move and fire and your team can get and hold locks LRM boats can and will put out some damage in the close quarter lanes of some of the CW maps. Its the same general idea as infantry calling down artillery/mortars on an enemy except here mechs lock targets and you fire missiles on them.

[Kain Demos]

Mors Draco, on 10 July 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

I beg to differ. I run 2 LRM boats in my drop deck for CW, as a solo pugger too, and do extremely well using them. If you know how to move and fire and your team can get and hold locks LRM boats can and will put out some damage in the close quarter lanes of some of the CW maps. Its the same general idea as infantry calling down artillery/mortars on an enemy except here mechs lock targets and you fire missiles on them.

Its the same old story with LRMs every time, feast or famine. Go up against a ****** team that doesn't know how to nullify LRMs and you can just sitback and click your way to victory. Conversely you can go against a team full of people that DO know how to nullify LRMs and you will do nothing.

[Ghogiel]

cdlord, on 08 July 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

Fewer L33T meta-tryhards (or at least they are more sparsely dispersed) in the PUG queue.

It's trial mech paradise in CW. I dunno how you are running into the 4 good teams that ever play CW all the time...

[Kristov Kerensky]

Decadre, on 10 July 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

I just using some of what you wrote as an example as part of this discussion, especially in regard to the thought that many PUGs are outright against CW because of CW/Team organizing hate.

Through the 1st three pages, I counted amongst all the misc posts 4 posts that outright stated hated getting stomped. 9 posts were statements that getting involved in CW took to much time.

And I gave a simple way to get around the long wait times and Ghost Drops, read the Que information and go where the action is, simple as that. PGI has given us detailed explanations of how the Planetary Information for CW works, how to read it, see what's going on, all in effort to help shorten the times people face in CW Ques. People ignore it, they ignore when we tell them ourselves how to get shorter drop times.

Planet has 0 Attackers and you are Defending, guess what is going to happen? LONG wait time for a Ghost.
Planet has 0 Defenders and you are Attacking, see above.
Look at the numbers on the screen, Attacks and Defenders are both shown on the planet list for your Faction, which btw is ALL you see, the planets for YOUR FACTION, not ALL Factions, so stop telling us how there's 200 players in CW, there's 200 in YOUR Faction's space, that's it. Those numbers show you the Attackers/Defenders on each planet, so if you see a 0 on either side, Ghost Drops happening, that's all. Look for units of 12 on each side, simple math, if you see 12/12 then there's not enough going on for you to get a drop. If you see 19/22, get in there! Simple math, easy to look at the numbers we've given and see where to go and where to avoid. What we see in this thread is multiple people complaining of Ghost Drops after long waits, which means people NOT paying attention to what is happening on the planets they are hitting, pure and simple.

I hit CW, I see if any of the planets in Kurita space are active or not and look at the numbers on the active planets and then find the one with the most numbers short of units of 12 and hit that. My wait times are long, maybe 5 minutes, when I do this. When I just click on a planet and drop, well, if it's 0/0 and it's a planet I'm Defending, I'll wait all night without a drop, no one defends planets that aren't being attacked. Pick a planet that you can ATTACK, not Defend, and get people to join you, use the Faction Chat, that's exactly what it's there for, and your wait times will be even shorter. I've used it many times to get people on a planet and get a drop, works great, IF you use it.

Again, wait times are long only because people don't read the information PGI has given us and that other players give out in CW, you can read the ques, you can see exactly where to go and have a very short wait, or you can continue to ignore it and wait for 30 minutes for a Ghost Drop on an empty planet you are Defending, up to you.

CW has no incentives to play it, that's the real reason those of us who WANT it don't play it much, there's just not enough reason to do it. 5 minutes of waiting to drop, 30 minutes of drop time, I'll make less then I'd make doing solo drops in the non-CW que losing constantly, and I don't lose constantly, so it's definitely not worth the time for the rewards. And we get nothing for the effort of taking/holding a planet. Loyalty rewards only go so far, then what? Come on, PGI needs to make CW worth playing, that simple, and right now, it's not. I've been waiting 4 years, CW is not what PGI promised us in 2011, and that is something that more than a few of the non-CW folks in this thread have stated they don't want ANYWAY.

[Bloody]

Kin3ticX, on 10 July 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

Its not "how we want you to play", more like "how we figured out how to play". We can beat it into you until you either nerdrage out or try to emulate. There are also docs around, perhaps pinned even, where I basically show you how to approach CW the way that works.

PGI is probably perplexed given how much bitching we did every time CW was pushed back and now that we have it nobody wants to actually play CW.

or Like the vast majority we can ignore CW, let you continue to nerd rage about how big your mech penis is while the rest of the population has fun in Puglandia.

I think you are just as perplexed as PGI on why CW is so crap. Hint the majority do know how CW plays out and do not want.

[Trip Hammer]

For me its a lack of any kind of depth to the game. Overall I like what they have done with the mechs, the new UI and the retooling of the maps. I feel that they are making progress in the technical areas.

The game has no depth at all. Its the same thing over and over again, and CW is just longer version of pug matches that I have to wait longer to get into.

I would like to see.....

• Different objectives (Protect a moving caravan, train or other Mechs)
  
• Beach head landing where the attackers have to defend an area while the dropship lands.
  
• Beach head pt 2. Defend an area while defenses are ACTUALLY being constructed.
  
• Actual scout missions where actual scout mechs have to go out and get information while trying to avoid detection.
  
• An actual attack path leading to the capital/military command center before the planet can be taken.
  
• Also, there needs to be some kind of consequence for burning through your mechs in CW. If a given unit can do drop after drop with the never ending supply of mechs it just promotes the death match mentality.
  
• And last I would like to see some actual incentives for playing CW.

Until I see them starting to do something in this vein I'm likely not going to bother with CW anymore. I don't have a lot of time to play here lately (almost none) and I haven't felt much like playing a game that is basically a giant death that I have to wait 5 to 15 minutes just to get into it.

Edited by The Faceless, 10 July 2015 - 12:54 PM.