170 replies to this topic

[Lugh]

Duke Nedo, on 27 July 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

If you really want dps, use cSPLs. I don't think you really do though since it's an Alpha game... http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3a7e89d84e8ab77

That build has TERRIBLE symmetry of ranges on its weapons an while cooler than most of the others, it is totally ineffective against competent opponents.

[Duke Nedo]

Heh, you got what you asked for... point is true though, cSPLs are very heat efficient, have good range (as SPLs go) not toooo far from unquirked IS MPLs actually and you can build excellent brawler builds with it if you want to. I use cSPLs quite a bit, occationally with Gauss too. Nothing stops you from shooting gauss at point Blanc range.

Gauss, UACs have the same heat as IS counterparts.

Let me ask you a question: Would you mind if IS mechs could equip clan weapons? Do you think these mechs would be better or worse than pure IS Tech builds?

[Widowmaker1981]

Duke Nedo, on 27 July 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Heh, you got what you asked for... point is true though, cSPLs are very heat efficient, have good range (as SPLs go) not toooo far from unquirked IS MPLs actually and you can build excellent brawler builds with it if you want to. I use cSPLs quite a bit, occationally with Gauss too. Nothing stops you from shooting gauss at point Blanc range.

Gauss, UACs have the same heat as IS counterparts.

Let me ask you a question: Would you mind if IS mechs could equip clan weapons? Do you think these mechs would be better or worse than pure IS Tech builds?

in some cases IS builds would be helped by Clan weapons, especially the small and medium class lasers. However in return, clans would like 10 heat PPC options, IS LPLs with their 0.67 durations and 1.57 damage per heat, and IS single shot autocannons. Deal? I think clan mechs win in that deal and would become scary OP, personally.

[Sjorpha]

Widowmaker1981, on 27 July 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

in some cases IS builds would be helped by Clan weapons, especially the small and medium class lasers. However in return, clans would like 10 heat PPC options, IS LPLs with their 0.67 durations and 1.57 damage per heat, and IS single shot autocannons. Deal? I think clan mechs win in that deal and would become scary OP, personally.

With only the weapons you're probably right, if you also include the clan XL and clan endo/ferro it's another story.

The engines are really the major balance issue here, the weapons are pretty decently balanced with a few exceptions. IS small and medium lasers are still much worse than the clan versions, and the gauss also. But as you say the IS ACs and large pulses are pretty nice.

But those are quite easy to adress with just a couple small tweaks. It's the engines that cause the big gap and that's where the real fix should be. Take care of that you've done away with a big part of the problem.

Edited by Sjorpha, 27 July 2015 - 01:45 PM.

[Jeb]

I stopped reading at "For now, let's ignore hitboxes, geometry and quirks."

Honestly you have to take everything into account for mech balance...

Edited by Jeb, 27 July 2015 - 01:51 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Widowmaker1981, on 27 July 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

... its just that a lot of people deliberately use the obvious fact that clan tech is in and of itself better as justification for obvious OP, while deliberately (i assume) ignoring the drawbacks of locked customisation. If the Tech wasnt better, they would be worse. much worse.

But you realize that even with locked customization, the better designed Clan 'Mechs are still better than the best IS 'Mechs, don't you? For example, because of the Omnipod system, an Arctic Cheetah could take take the role of Firestarter and Raven combined. It can play at any short, medium, and long engagement. One thing it can't do is mimicking Hugginn or Oxide.

Widowmaker1981, on 27 July 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

If you balance the systems individually, since PGI arent going to break stock builds, clan weapon tech has to be worse then IS, because it lighter and smaller, and that really feels wrong. I want overall mech parity, not individual system parity, and some of the better IS mechs are in a good place imo, though i think IS SSRM 4/6, ERM/SLs and possibly LFEs should be released early.

Just be honest to yourself, if the techs themselves aren't balanced against each other, how much quirking will be enough? In a way, Clan tech does have to be the same as IS tech or somehow disadvantaged, for example: laser normalization, burst fire ACs, spreading damage ERPPC, and streaming LRMs. Just quirking the 'Mechs themselves without touching the tech will not guarantee parity will be achieved when a batch of new 'Mechs come. Even with our current attempt at balancing the techs, PGI still have to re-adjust the quirks several times as the number of 'Mechs grows.

Widowmaker1981, on 27 July 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

in some cases IS builds would be helped by Clan weapons, especially the small and medium class lasers. However in return, clans would like 10 heat PPC options, IS LPLs with their 0.67 durations and 1.57 damage per heat, and IS single shot autocannons. Deal? I think clan mechs win in that deal and would become scary OP, personally.

Remember that this is the result of PGI's attempt at tech balancing. If PGI didn't do this, you would not want to touch any IS weapon.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 27 July 2015 - 01:59 PM.

[Phlinger]

Lets not forget how the IS and Clan are actually balanced again.

Inner Sphere 'Mechs have...

Quirks
Increased (Sometimes Double) Weapon Slots from original tech readouts
Reduced Heat
Heavier Weapons
Reduced Laser Burn Time
Non-Fixed JJ's
Non-Fixed Engines
Ability to swap from STD to XL
Ability to Upgrade(or Downgrade) to and from Endo Steel
Ability to Upgrade(or Downgrade) to and from Ferro Fibrous
Single Shell Ballistics
Increased Slot Heatsinks and Weapons

Clan Has...
Better XL engines
Lighter weapons
Quirks on lackluster chassis
Quirks nerfing high performing Chassis
Increased Heat
Same Hardpoint allocation as original tech Readouts
Fixed Engines
Fixed JJ's
Lighter Equipment (ECM, BAP)
Increased Laser Burn time
Omni Pods
Increased Laser Range


I know there is a lot I'm missing

I would be fine with Inner Sphere mechs using Clan Tech, IF they were engine locked/JJ locked, had reduced hardpoints, moved back to original tech readouts and removed quirks, unless they perform really well, then they can receive negative quirks.


Also, I do apologize for not following the conversation, read the first post and some on page 7


Personally, I think all of this Clan/IS balancing crap is just 'The Grass is Greener' Syndrome. I've seen too many 6 LL Stalkers melt my face lately to even care anymore.

[Skarlock]

Duke Nedo, on 27 July 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Heh, you got what you asked for... point is true though, cSPLs are very heat efficient, have good range (as SPLs go) not toooo far from unquirked IS MPLs actually and you can build excellent brawler builds with it if you want to. I use cSPLs quite a bit, occationally with Gauss too. Nothing stops you from shooting gauss at point Blanc range.

Gauss, UACs have the same heat as IS counterparts.

Let me ask you a question: Would you mind if IS mechs could equip clan weapons? Do you think these mechs would be better or worse than pure IS Tech builds?

One problem with simply giving IS mechs clan weapons is they would still retain their quirks which might give tremendous benefits to the IS side that are not anticipated. The quirked IS mechs work because they are quirked specifically for IS weapons, however if you give them clan tech on top of IS quirks, it might break the mold quite a bit, such as the potential for a firestarter-s with 5 or even 7 clan mpls that still gets at least some of its quirk benefits.

Even something like giving IS XL engines survivability would beef some mechs tremendously, and cause others to fall behind a huge margin. For example, the Atlas and the Banshee 3E. The Atlas can't mount an AC/20 in the side torso and the atlas DDC for example can't have ECM+3 SRM6 + Artemis in the other side torso, so you're forced to cut a ton of firepower. The banshee 3E couldn't use an XL and also mount 3xAC/5 in the side torso, which also nerfs that load out, a load out it's specifically quirked for. On the other hand, the king crab I think would benefit tremendously as that mech can still mount huge ballistics in the arms and comfortably fit smaller weapons in the side torsos, anything shy of 4xSRM 6 + artemis for the kgc-0000, making it a huge upgrade for that specific mech. Even a kgc-000 with 4 uac/5s would simply get a straight speed upgrade for essentially nothing (well, except the cbill cost), making it outright improved.

It's all kind of moot anyways, from what I understand. PGI is in the middle of doing a great rebalance that will change the game considerably, so we'll have to see what they implement and how it goes from there.

[Skarlock]

Ronyn, on 27 July 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

I would be fine with Inner Sphere mechs using Clan Tech, IF they were engine locked/JJ locked, had reduced hardpoints, moved back to original tech readouts and removed quirks, unless they perform really well, then they can receive negative quirks.

The problem I have with this argument is that CLAN mechs no longer follow that model when the IIC mechs come in December. They get modular endo/ferro, modular jump jets, and you pick the engine you put in it. While you don't get omnipods, I think maybe only one IS mech in the resistance 2 pack gets omnipods (not sure?) but clans get 4, and at least 2 of those clan mechs appear to be real killers. So while clans are receiving almost all of the best features of IS mechs for the price of losing omnipod flexibility, IS mechs are only getting... Omnipods... For one mech I think...

[Lord0fHats]

The Resistance II mechs are Battlemechs. At the last town hall PGI actually shot down the notion that we'd see any IS Omnimechs anytime soon.

Which is fair to a degree, because they still haven't managed to balance Clan Omnimechs. Best not to throw more chaos into the mix. I think PGI is releasing the IIC's though with the upcoming balance pass in mind, so its a bit early to be crying doom (though it would be doom if they are released in the current balance state).

Edited by Lord0fHats, 27 July 2015 - 05:43 PM.

[Phlinger]

Skarlock, on 27 July 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

The problem I have with this argument is that CLAN mechs no longer follow that model when the IIC mechs come in December. They get modular endo/ferro, modular jump jets, and you pick the engine you put in it. While you don't get omnipods, I think maybe only one IS mech in the resistance 2 pack gets omnipods (not sure?) but clans get 4, and at least 2 of those clan mechs appear to be real killers. So while clans are receiving almost all of the best features of IS mechs for the price of losing omnipod flexibility, IS mechs are only getting... Omnipods... For one mech I think...

That's a really weak argument, sorry man. By the time the IIC Mechs are released, there will be 6 months worth of changes put into the game from the date they were announced. Not to mention this massive balancing patch they plan on implementing. No one knows what is going to happen in that time.

I hate to quote Doc Brown, but "You aren't thinking 4th dimensionally!"

[Moldur]

That was a really long post... It was very long. The information in it.. well, it was long at least, right?

[Averen]

Ronyn, on 27 July 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

Lets not forget how the IS and Clan are actually balanced again.

Inner Sphere 'Mechs have...

Quirks
Increased (Sometimes Double) Weapon Slots from original tech readouts
Reduced Heat
Heavier Weapons
Reduced Laser Burn Time
Non-Fixed JJ's
Non-Fixed Engines
Ability to swap from STD to XL
Ability to Upgrade(or Downgrade) to and from Endo Steel
Ability to Upgrade(or Downgrade) to and from Ferro Fibrous
Single Shell Ballistics
Increased Slot Heatsinks and Weapons

Most of your advantages are factually wrong.

Being able to switch Endo/Ferro is useless, since a clan engines is an avantage that will always save more tons than an IS STD plus these upgrades could ever deliver. Being able to switch engines does not change anything about this fact.

The limited engine customizations itself does not inherently disadvantage many clan-mechs, but rather limit their role, which doesn' even work in mechs like the Timber or Scrow, which could easily replace 2/3 of the mechs in MWO. Four of five clan mechs are extremly strong thanks to their engine.
The bad clan mechs are also still a lot better of than the bad IS mechs, also thanks to clan weaponry (nvm the Myst Lynx, which is terrible).

Reduced heat ist a myth, that should be very obvious. While suffering at duration, a nova can develope firepower similar to a Wubshee at superior heat. Why does that work? Because ERSL have almost the range of a MPL, giving the clans a huge edge. Not to mention being able to equip a vast array of DHS thanks to clan mechs, which surpasses many assaults.
A CERML is 0.84 heat per damage, an ML is 0.8 heat per damage. In the end, clan mechs are as lot cooler than their IS counterparts. The only reason for high clan heatspikes are things like 6 tons of CERML delivering ridiculous 42pt alphas.

Having more hardpoints than in the technical readouts is also pretty pointless, since most clan mechs have far ridiculous amounts of slots. Which is why a Timber or Scrow can be everything, being hardly limited by HPs at all.

Fixed JJs are an issue for some mechs, but again, a clan XL delivers advantages for most mediums and everything above, which will easily compensate that problem. Mechs like the nova still work just fine with jets, and again, while the Summoner is limited in his role, the four other clan mechs reach from the level of the strong IS heavies to the best mechs in the game.
Single shot ACs is similar misinformed. Only the AC20 is alpha weaponry, and that one has to measure against the tremendous DPS of an UAC20 and sperior range/alpha of laser boating. Laser vomiting wins, it's the strongest playstyle in the game. TBR beats Misery.
AC2/10 are bad, while the CUAC10 delivers some utility, and the (U)AC5 are DPS weapons, so the value of a single shots is generally low, especially considering they lack the suppression effect of CUACs.

I can only recomment taking a look at this list, and while maybe being arguable at times, it's a nice guideline. Especially for lining out trends:

http://metamechs.com...mega-tier-list/

Edited by Averen, 27 July 2015 - 09:36 PM.

[RockmachinE]

Averen, on 27 July 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

I can only recomment taking a look at this list, and while maybe being arguable at times, it's a nice guideline. Especially for lining out trends:

http://metamechs.com...mega-tier-list/

Very arguable. Commandos suck? I got Ace of Spades in a commando, easily a couple of kills per round on average. It takes a certain kind of pilot to play, but they don't suck.

[Averen]

Louis Brofist, on 28 July 2015 - 01:39 AM, said:

Very arguable. Commandos suck? I got Ace of Spades in a commando, easily a couple of kills per round on average. It takes a certain kind of pilot to play, but they don't suck.

Personal skill, mindset, playstyle and the general caotic low level nature of puglife make a large difference. I recently dug out my orion due to the recent thread, in the first game in my On1-V was 823 damage, getting a bunch of kills is very possible with a precise and careful playstyle. It is nontheless, compared to other heavies, still a pretty bad mech. MWO is still a skillbased game (ignoring LRM ).
As for the commando, you'd probably still be a lot better in a firestarter or arctic cheetah.

As said, I like the ranking since it presents a general guideline that looks relatively consistent to me.

Edited by Averen, 28 July 2015 - 02:11 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Widowmaker1981, on 27 July 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

in some cases IS builds would be helped by Clan weapons, especially the small and medium class lasers. However in return, clans would like 10 heat PPC options, IS LPLs with their 0.67 durations and 1.57 damage per heat, and IS single shot autocannons. Deal? I think clan mechs win in that deal and would become scary OP, personally.

I just threw this one out there for arguments sake, but thinking about it a bit, there is no doubt that if I could switch to clan Tech weapons (not just Cherry picking, full switch) on my IS mechs I would do it without regret. The reverse is less obvious, if I could switch to IS Tech on my clan mechs, would I? Clan mechs have more pod Space in most cases due to clan XL and can better afford heavier IS Tech to get Shorter durations... but in most cases its a pure loss anyways so apart from the occational case, I would not.

If I break it Down a bit:

IS -> Clan weapons

Gain: 3t ligher gauss, lighter and better lasers over all, lighter SRMs, SSRMs, cUAC10/20
Lose: AC/20, PPC

Impact cases:
1. Dual gauss jager/K2/phract would get 6 spare tons to use on support lasers or engine
2. Gauss+2xPPC builds -> Gauss+2xcLPL + 2 free tons
3. STK-4N or BLR 6x LL -> 4x cLPL (same damage) + 6 spare tons for SRM/SSRM support
4. Single AC/20 builds -> cUAC/20 + 2 spare tons (I would not consider this a downgrade, just different)
5. Dual AC/20 builds -> dual cUAC/10 + 8 spare tons for lasers (I would miss boomjager, but 2x cUAC/10+lasers is actually a brutal build, running it on a EBJ and it has currently k/d of 4.09
6. 3x LL/ERLL builds -> 2x cLPL + 3 spare tons (same performance)
7. 3x LPL - this is the only one I would possibly miss, best mimicked by 5x cMPLs + 11 spare tons where HPs are available.
8. TDR-5SS -> 5 torso mounted cMPLs or wubshee With cSPLs...

Clan -> IS weapons

Gain: AC/20 fld, PPC, SRM more punch per hardpoint, but not per weight
Lose: see above

Impact:

1. EBJ could not run dual gauss, guass + 2x PPC would not fit
2. Mechs With little pod Space would be dead, like SMN, fridge and the likes
3. Some mechs With lots of E hardpoints could exploit 8-10x MPL brawling builds, mr gargles, executive?
4. Single AC/20 perhaps on some mech would be beneficial, but Heavy... not sure which would use it
5. Perhaps 2x3xLPL build may fit on a DWF, otherwise too Heavy

All in all, I would consider clan weapons almost a pure Upgrade. Dual AC/20 is the only think I can think of that would be significantly different and I would miss it. I can't think of any IS weapon that would fit on any of my clan builds that I would really want. Sure, dual AC/20 somewhere but which mech could fit the 34 tons needed? DWF is the only one from the top of my head...

Edited by Duke Nedo, 28 July 2015 - 02:31 AM.

[Phlinger]

Averen, on 27 July 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

Most of your advantages are factually wrong.

Being able to switch Endo/Ferro is useless, since a clan engines is an avantage that will always save more tons than an IS STD plus these upgrades could ever deliver. Being able to switch engines does not change anything about this fact.

The limited engine customizations itself does not inherently disadvantage many clan-mechs, but rather limit their role, which doesn' even work in mechs like the Timber or Scrow, which could easily replace 2/3 of the mechs in MWO. Four of five clan mechs are extremly strong thanks to their engine.
The bad clan mechs are also still a lot better of than the bad IS mechs, also thanks to clan weaponry (nvm the Myst Lynx, which is terrible).

Reduced heat ist a myth, that should be very obvious. While suffering at duration, a nova can develope firepower similar to a Wubshee at superior heat. Why does that work? Because ERSL have almost the range of a MPL, giving the clans a huge edge. Not to mention being able to equip a vast array of DHS thanks to clan mechs, which surpasses many assaults.
A CERML is 0.84 heat per damage, an ML is 0.8 heat per damage. In the end, clan mechs are as lot cooler than their IS counterparts. The only reason for high clan heatspikes are things like 6 tons of CERML delivering ridiculous 42pt alphas.

Having more hardpoints than in the technical readouts is also pretty pointless, since most clan mechs have far ridiculous amounts of slots. Which is why a Timber or Scrow can be everything, being hardly limited by HPs at all.

Fixed JJs are an issue for some mechs, but again, a clan XL delivers advantages for most mediums and everything above, which will easily compensate that problem. Mechs like the nova still work just fine with jets, and again, while the Summoner is limited in his role, the four other clan mechs reach from the level of the strong IS heavies to the best mechs in the game.
Single shot ACs is similar misinformed. Only the AC20 is alpha weaponry, and that one has to measure against the tremendous DPS of an UAC20 and sperior range/alpha of laser boating. Laser vomiting wins, it's the strongest playstyle in the game. TBR beats Misery.
AC2/10 are bad, while the CUAC10 delivers some utility, and the (U)AC5 are DPS weapons, so the value of a single shots is generally low, especially considering they lack the suppression effect of CUACs.

I can only recomment taking a look at this list, and while maybe being arguable at times, it's a nice guideline. Especially for lining out trends:

http://metamechs.com...mega-tier-list/

Do you work for Fox News? Because I can tell when someone is trying to be a spin doctor. The list I posted is in fact, well, fact. There is no denying it. Inner S[here mechs can 'in fact' swap engines and upgrade and downgrade their... upgrades.

The rest is your opinion, or should I say, the Meta Sheep, Underhive Opinion. Follow the herd boy, follow the herd. Someone said spreadsheet make mech .0002 better, means rest = horribad!

[Duke Nedo]

Ronyn, on 27 July 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

Lets not forget how the IS and Clan are actually balanced again.

Inner Sphere 'Mechs have...

Quirks
Increased (Sometimes Double) Weapon Slots from original tech readouts
Reduced Heat
Heavier Weapons
Reduced Laser Burn Time
Non-Fixed JJ's
Non-Fixed Engines
Ability to swap from STD to XL
Ability to Upgrade(or Downgrade) to and from Endo Steel
Ability to Upgrade(or Downgrade) to and from Ferro Fibrous
Single Shell Ballistics
Increased Slot Heatsinks and Weapons

Clan Has...
Better XL engines
Lighter weapons
Quirks on lackluster chassis
Quirks nerfing high performing Chassis
Increased Heat
Same Hardpoint allocation as original tech Readouts
Fixed Engines
Fixed JJ's
Lighter Equipment (ECM, BAP)
Increased Laser Burn time
Omni Pods
Increased Laser Range


I know there is a lot I'm missing

I would be fine with Inner Sphere mechs using Clan Tech, IF they were engine locked/JJ locked, had reduced hardpoints, moved back to original tech readouts and removed quirks, unless they perform really well, then they can receive negative quirks.


Also, I do apologize for not following the conversation, read the first post and some on page 7


Personally, I think all of this Clan/IS balancing crap is just 'The Grass is Greener' Syndrome. I've seen too many 6 LL Stalkers melt my face lately to even care anymore.

Ronyn, on 28 July 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

Do you work for Fox News? Because I can tell when someone is trying to be a spin doctor. The list I posted is in fact, well, fact. There is no denying it. Inner S[here mechs can 'in fact' swap engines and upgrade and downgrade their... upgrades.

The rest is your opinion, or should I say, the Meta Sheep, Underhive Opinion. Follow the herd boy, follow the herd. Someone said spreadsheet make mech .0002 better, means rest = horribad!

Tough Words, when in fact Your facts are wrong. At least some of them...

In fact, locked Equipment, engine, ff/endo are not factors in clan vs IS Balance. Why? Because they are random artifacts from Lore or whatever. They sure enough cripple mechs like Summoners, Executioner, Gargoyle etc, but they do not greatly affect Clan vs IS Balance since some (the best) clan mechs do not really suffer from this at all (thus making them the best), like Stormcrow and Ebon Jags. Timberwolf suffers a little bit from a bit too large engine, and DWF a bit from too small engine, and HBR from Lack of endo/ff, but they are still better than most or perhaps even all IS mechs. Some will say anyways.

Quirks affect IS-clan Balance since they are deliberately chosen to even out the Field, but locked Equipment does not as long as it doesn't affect all clan mechs negatively.

As for weapon Techs, see my post above. At least I cannot find any significant drawback for IS if they could switch and instead use clan Tech weapons. Biggest loss I can see is the loss of the boom-jager, but that is just a fun build anyways.

As for clan using IS weapons there is really nothing to gain except for a huge number of MPLs without ghost heat. Otherwise, the extra weight on IS Equipment will break most clan builds. Want 10-PPCs? Well, not together With gauss because neither EBJ nor TBR nor HBR can fit 2x PPC + 2x IS-gauss, too Heavy. Same With dual AC/20, which chassi will fit it except DWFs? Really, not much to gain unless you can Cherry-pick and mix Techs, then you can find a few you may be able to use... so all in all, clan Tech is simply better.

Quirks is something different, and pointless to discuss right now since they are changing big time soonish... but Tech Balance is more relevant than ever to discuss. Better Tech Balance -> less Extreme quirks when they hit us.

[Phlinger]

Duke Nedo, on 28 July 2015 - 06:38 AM, said:

Tough Words, when in fact Your facts are wrong. At least some of them...

In fact, locked Equipment, engine, ff/endo are not factors in clan vs IS Balance. Why? Because they are random artifacts from Lore or whatever. They sure enough cripple mechs like Summoners, Executioner, Gargoyle etc, but they do not greatly affect Clan vs IS Balance since some (the best) clan mechs do not really suffer from this at all (thus making them the best), like Stormcrow and Ebon Jags. Timberwolf suffers a little bit from a bit too large engine, and DWF a bit from too small engine, and HBR from Lack of endo/ff, but they are still better than most or perhaps even all IS mechs. Some will say anyways.

Quirks affect IS-clan Balance since they are deliberately chosen to even out the Field, but locked Equipment does not as long as it doesn't affect all clan mechs negatively.

As for weapon Techs, see my post above. At least I cannot find any significant drawback for IS if they could switch and instead use clan Tech weapons. Biggest loss I can see is the loss of the boom-jager, but that is just a fun build anyways.

As for clan using IS weapons there is really nothing to gain except for a huge number of MPLs without ghost heat. Otherwise, the extra weight on IS Equipment will break most clan builds. Want 10-PPCs? Well, not together With gauss because neither EBJ nor TBR nor HBR can fit 2x PPC + 2x IS-gauss, too Heavy. Same With dual AC/20, which chassi will fit it except DWFs? Really, not much to gain unless you can Cherry-pick and mix Techs, then you can find a few you may be able to use... so all in all, clan Tech is simply better.

Quirks is something different, and pointless to discuss right now since they are changing big time soonish... but Tech Balance is more relevant than ever to discuss. Better Tech Balance -> less Extreme quirks when they hit us.

I really am enjoying watching this conversation unfold. The bias against Clans is overwhelming. Feelings and opinions are being thrown around as if they represent fact and as soon as something is brought up that would negatively impact anything Inner Sphere related the entire post is marked as improper and not factual. Do you guys even listen to yourselves? Seriously. This is just a long troll thread. I thought you wanted to balance the Clan/Inner Sphere, not give Inner Sphere more stuff and nerf the Clans, which is exactly what this post is about.

My favorite lines are ones like these.....

Quote

In fact, locked Equipment, engine, ff/endo are not factors in clan vs IS Balance. Why? Because they are random artifacts from Lore or whatever

If they are from Lore, then why doesn't the Inner Sphere Chassis' cling to the same lore. It's very convenient to disregard how they are balanced when you feel they aren't balanced in your favor, when they actually are. There is nothing random about them. It was a design decision made by the dev team to limit Omni-Pod construction.

[Duke Nedo]

Ronyn, on 28 July 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

I really am enjoying watching this conversation unfold. The bias against Clans is overwhelming. Feelings and opinions are being thrown around as if they represent fact and as soon as something is brought up that would negatively impact anything Inner Sphere related the entire post is marked as improper and not factual. Do you guys even listen to yourselves? Seriously. This is just a long troll thread. I thought you wanted to balance the Clan/Inner Sphere, not give Inner Sphere more stuff and nerf the Clans, which is exactly what this post is about.

My favorite lines are ones like these.....




If they are from Lore, then why doesn't the Inner Sphere Chassis' cling to the same lore. It's very convenient to disregard how they are balanced when you feel they aren't balanced in your favor, when they actually are. There is nothing random about them. It was a design decision made by the dev team to limit Omni-Pod construction.

Do you argue that EBJ and SCR for example are affected negatively by the locked jumpjets on SMNs?

It's like I would say that IS are underpowered because Commandos have bad hardpoints.

As long as you don't need to use Summoners in CW, the locked Equipment on Summoners do not affect Clan vs. IS Balance in the slightest bit. That is a fact.

It does however break a fair number of Clan chassi, which is a shame! Both Clan- and IS- intra-balance needs a lot of work, but it does not affect Clan vs IS Balance as long as it doesn't buff or nerf the top chassi.