170 replies to this topic

[Duke Nedo]

Lugh, on 10 July 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

Several fallacies in your argument here.
1) You are comparing mechs based on Range alone, which leads to your whole argument being fallacious. If you were comparing mechs based on exposure time the balance is clearly on the IS side. On the heat management side again clearly on the IS side.
2) Your next fallacy is the comparison of the Standard engine with the clan XL engine. The winner is the STD for survivability, an option that is wholly absent from he clan side.

3)Despite claiming no bias, all your comparisons attempt to paint the clan mechs as 100% superior in all situations, and you are wrong there too. There is precisely ONE regions where clans are superior 100% of the time and you proved it (Range).
The map design being what it is in the game now, this is NOT the advantage you make it out to be.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Mid range brawling the IS is at least 50% if not 100% better, due to lower heat and higher rates of fire.

That most of you don't seem to grasp this is still mind boggling to me.

Actually no, I don't only compare range. What I do is to only compare lasers, which is not correct, but it's the current "meta" so... look at the comparisons, range, sustainable dps, beam duration is given and comparable.

What you say about STD is also not very relevant, but the comparison has a more real flaw and that is that an IS mech doesn't have to equip and STD for that tonnage penalty, the penalty of ST death can often be a smaller drawback than the tonnage and therefore many people equip XLs on certain mechs.

[Midax]

1. He compared several builds that are near equal to each other. He was pointing out that The clan mech matches the IS mech in performance while still having 20+ tons free because of XL. He was not disusing if Clan weapons are better or worse than IS weapons which is why he stuck to builds that are close to performing like the IS build and gave several differing builds.

2. The STD does NOT win at survivability in a meaningful way. It can leave you with a zombie build but once you reach that point you are pretty much dead anyway. The advantage of XL crushes the ablility to survive two ST losses, which is his main point.

3. He points out that quirks on the IS mechs bring the weapons up to match with clan mechs, but that there is still a min 10 ton gap in equipment that the equal size clan mech can bring. To close that gap with an XL engine would lose 2 more crit slots and all of your survivability parity.

Edited by Midax, 10 July 2015 - 05:10 AM.

[Averen]

Duke Nedo, on 10 July 2015 - 03:51 AM, said:

Hey, that's a bit gloomy... I am not quite there (yet)...

True, it is. They did some good work, but that was mostly just to cleanup the utter mess of a clan release. Which btw still leaves open issues. That's what I'm going on about:

The issues we have with the IIC aren't new, it's stuff that was never fixed. Being exact opposites of mediocre to good IS mechs just makes it more obvious. I honestly assumed this would continue to happen after the clan release. They opened a pandora's box, and you'd just need to wait for mechs with stronger hardpoints and hitboxes. Not that said hitboxes even stopped a Timber at being godly.

Worst thing about this IMO isn't even balance, it's how mechs do the same thing just worse than others. And that's not just a bit frustrating, but also kind of boring. Not even counting the insane grind of clan mechs.
MWO has very little variety and is still mostly about deathmatch, and now they continue make mechs obsolete and let you feel like a 2nd class player?
I could of course buy the new pack, but a constant need of buying overpriced expansion packs isn't something I'd put much money into.

Sjorpha, on 10 July 2015 - 04:11 AM, said:

I think the idea that business stands in the way of balance is quite the fallacy.

[..]


Mechwarrior tactics was a scam, MWO is not, even if it eventually fails.

Cutting a bit, but I've read everything:
I'm not going as far as calling MWO a scam. The only reason i'm still not completely away and care to a small, if detoriating, degree is it's unique gameplay. But skillbased elements are the ones hurting the most under p2w elements. For both sides, the only reason we don't see only clanmechs is probably because it's just kind of boring.

Business standing in the way of balance isn't a fallacy, tho: It's something that can happen, but doesn't have to. It's less sustainable than better modells, but MWOs declining playersbase indicates not everything is great.
The IS packs indeed aren't exactly overpowered, even if they have some ridiculous stuff like an ECM cata with 100 points of extra armor. Can't really explaing that any other way than a slight bit of bought power.

Fact is, PGI did sacrifice balance for business reasons. Nothing else was the terrible Clan release. And it's not just an IPG-thing: Clans were never fixed, as written above. And stuff like the stronger clan parts, especially TBR/Scrow/Dire, are kind of obvious pay to win elements. The mechs were problems before, now they're even worse. The EBJ being OP was obvious from a miley away, some of the best omnipods have been preorder/preorder stuff.

IIC wave does look even more ridiculous. And why shouldn't it be, they let the EBJ get away with it, and the stromcrow still is around a million times better than almost any other medium. Scrow is ofc CBill, but that's kind of indicative of how this is a cycle that's hard to break out off. Quirks did some good, even in inter-IS/Clan balance. Honestly, they brought a 2nd life to the dead hunchie!
They did not fix the central issues, tho. And they do become quiet apparent when a Timber storms past my hunchie.
Just imagine a safe-XL case-protected dual gauß hunchie. Compare that one to a jager with XL and arm mounted weaponry.

Edited by Averen, 10 July 2015 - 05:20 AM.

[Lugh]

Midax, on 10 July 2015 - 05:09 AM, said:

1. He compared several builds that are near equal to each other. He was pointing out that The clan mech matches the IS mech in performance while still having 20+ tons free because of XL. He was not disusing if Clan weapons are better or worse than IS weapons which is why he stuck to builds that are close to performing like the IS build and gave several differing builds.

2. The STD does NOT win at survivability in a meaningful way. It can leave you with a zombie build but once you reach that point you are pretty much dead anyway. The advantage of XL crushes the ablility to survive two ST losses, which is his main point.

3. He points out that quirks on the IS mechs bring the weapons up to match with clan mechs, but that there is still a min 10 ton gap in equipment that the equal size clan mech can bring. To close that gap with an XL engine would lose 2 more crit slots and all of your survivability parity.

1) Free Tons mean jack all when you don't have the slots to equip more weapons, free tons means that you have the ability to bring larger weapons to the party than the other side in that comparison. Free tons and larger weapons lead to less heat efficiency, less heat efficiency means less firing. Less firing means less damage. And OH YES LONGER exposure during the firing cycle to keep that damage on target. Which means more incoming damage. From the guy who has (in many cases) now begun to fire his SECOND full alpha at you while you are just finishing your first. Advantage IS.
2) Your right Dear. There is NO WAY to be successful with a fully armored Torso mounted 2 MED lasers and one head ML.
NO WAY AT ALL to contribute with 10 to 15 points of damage every .5 seconds.
3) NEITHER side can lose both side torsos. The MOST effective clan builds generally go with most weapons to the right or the left, losing that side is the same as the no weapon zombie mode you complain about for the STD.

Please, Please stop comparing Apples and Oranges. Each is TASTY and very good at what they do. However, Letting an Orange be an Orange, does not in any way stop an Apple from being an Apple.

The IS is better at mid range brawling and sustainable fire in those circumstances. STOP PEAK AND POKING with Clans mechs at Range you are letting the orange be an orange and it's better at that than you. Forming your firing line and rolling in to the clan line in mid range brawl range will do you more good than you are willing to explore because you are still wallowing in the woe is me I am inferiorness of your mistaken paradigm.

The clans are better at range, that's it. DPS wise in range the IS is better in every conceivable way.

Most of you seem to be struggling with understanding your enemy, probably because you don't or can't afford to play as the enemy.

[Sjorpha]

Lugh, on 10 July 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

The IS is better at mid range brawling and sustainable fire in those circumstances.

Nope, the strongest brawler builds currently are gerally clan SRM + SPL builds (and with the recent buff the UACs too), with a few special IS exceptions being roughly on par like the griffin 2N, they're just not common because the strongest clan meta is midrange laser + gauss alpha.

You can outplay a clan midrange deck with an IS short range deck, but a clan short range deck is actually even stronger than an IS one.

The myth about clan mechs being hotter and bad at short range is only because the hot high alpha midrange builds have been the strongest in general for a long time, not because you can't build strong short range or DPS builds.

[0bsidion]

I think the real issue is PGI painted themselves into a corner with their business model. I get they needed to do things this way because they need constant revenue, but the current MM system with mixed tech wasn't really what the BT designers intended. And PGI refuses to do things the way they did intend, ( e.g., stars vs lances, Clan bids for the honor of participating in battles, lowest number of committed forces wins, etc).

So what we ended up with isn't really fair to anyone. As Clans, we're supposed to be fighting a superior number of IS forces.

Right now, the main thing balancing IS vs Clans is IS has superior ballistics in ACs PPFLD and missiles in LRMs. Clans have superior laser vomit. The trouble comes when IS tries to beat the Clans at their own game. Of course there are also those IS mechs that don't have any ballistic hard points and don't have a choice. So yeah, it's a mess.

It boils down to PGI has to either segregate Clan tech from IS, and implement this stuff the way it was intended, (e.g. superior numbers vs superior tech), or keep watering it down until BT fans no longer recognize it for what it was. Sadly, their solution seems to be the latter.

[-Vompo-]

Free tonnage and no more free weapon slots can also lead to increased cooling so you'll be more heat efficient or targeting computers so you have more range and better crit chance etc. Surely you don't just take bigger weapons if you think you'll make your mech worse.

[Pariah Devalis]

I stopped reading the OP when I realized he compared two builds where the Clan mech ran about 30% hotter with a quarter second longer burn duration, then stated the Clan Mech was clearly superior here. Clearly heat efficiency, sustainable damage output, and burn duration are nonfactors for the OP.

I wish they were for me.


Edit:

And, of course, that is before taking hitboxes into account which can make or break a mech's lethality and durability. There are so many flaws in the OP....

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 10 July 2015 - 06:12 AM.

[Rhaythe]

You make ClanTech the blatantly better tech and resolve the issue of "balance" by increasing IS mechs per match and telling those players that "you can win if you swarm them", then you'll quickly see IS players disappearing.

The average player does not want to be fodder.

[Ghogiel]

what is the consensus with good players in 1v1s of EBJ MPL/SPL brawlers vs the 5SS, I haven't put it through the paces as a bralwer personally, so is it consistantly winning against the 5SS and the EBJ the best laser brawler in the game now?

[Sjorpha]

Rhaythe, on 10 July 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

You make ClanTech the blatantly better tech and resolve the issue of "balance" by increasing IS mechs per match and telling those players that "you can win if you swarm them", then you'll quickly see IS players disappearing.

The average player does not want to be fodder.

Probably true, but it would be interesting to try. To my knowledge there is no good example of a game that has actually tried something like that, so there is nothing really to go on as far as I know.

I would still be IS in CW at least, and mostly in pug too. I like IS mechs thematically, no idea what the general population would do but I don't think I'm that unusual, it's worth a shot IMO.

Balancing with equal numbers is fine too, just make a choice and go with it I say.

[-Vompo-]

Rhaythe, on 10 July 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

You make ClanTech the blatantly better tech and resolve the issue of "balance" by increasing IS mechs per match and telling those players that "you can win if you swarm them", then you'll quickly see IS players disappearing.

The average player does not want to be fodder.

I think it would actually drive off IS and Clan players alike. No player would feel that they out played someone unless Is player would actually duel a clan mech and win which should be almost impossible if we take the lore balance and let people actually play the mechs. Clan players would be killing Is mechs left and right and that is no challenge and if Is player would finally kill the clan player he/she wouldn't feel any accomplishment cause he/she just finished the clan player off and it was a massive group effort.

Sure it might be fun for a short while. Clanner would feel like a god of war killing all that stood before him/her and the Is player would feel like part of a swarm coming to overpower a clanner but it would die out pretty quick.

[Rhaythe]

Sjorpha, on 10 July 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

Probably true, but it would be interesting to try. To my knowledge there is no good example of a game that has actually tried something like that, so there is nothing really to go on as far as I know.

I would still be IS in CW at least, and mostly in pug too. I like IS mechs thematically, no idea what the general population would do but I don't think I'm that unusual, it's worth a shot IMO.

Balancing with equal numbers is fine too, just make a choice and go with it I say.

Most asymmetric games (Giants Citizen Kabuto, Evolve, Left 4 Dead, etc) that use numbers as a balancing tool go to great lengths to differentiate them. IE: 1 versus 4. 4 versus the horde. Even a single Protoss can usually take out several zerglings before they overwhelm him.

In this game's case, we're dealing with very close numbers - 10 versus 12. Doing that is an admission by PGI that Clans are better, and you only should fly IS mechs if you want to handicap yourself. For a game with e-sports dreams and a future Steam launch, that's a quick way of gimping an entire population.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of 3 lances versus 2 stars in BattleTech fashion. But I just don't see a way to make it work without *heavily* incentivizing IS mechs with out-of-game rewards (IE: c-bills). And even then, people will get tired of it. It's no fun to die to opponents that are just in blatantly better gear.

[Sjorpha]

Ghogiel, on 10 July 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

what is the consensus with good players in 1v1s of EBJ MPL/SPL brawlers vs the 5SS, I haven't put it through the paces as a bralwer personally, so is it consistantly winning against the 5SS and the EBJ the best laser brawler in the game now?

I'd say the EBJ is much better in on the whole, because of the superior peeking, the 5SS is probably better in a short range 1 on 1 brawl with no cover because it can shield better and has durability buffs.

On the other hand I'd say a UAC20 + SRM/SPL or SPL + SRM EBJ could probably outbrawl a 5SS close range, dat DPS is mad.

It doesn't seem like a fair comparison though, the EBJ is not a brawler chassis, and MPLs isn't the strongest build for it either. For a fair comparison of the mechs you need to compare their strongest builds to each other, like 5SS MPL vs. EBJ gaussvomit etc.

Edited by Sjorpha, 10 July 2015 - 06:27 AM.

[Rhaythe]

VompoVompatti, on 10 July 2015 - 06:21 AM, said:

Sure it might be fun for a short while. Clanner would feel like a god of war killing all that stood before him/her and the Is player would feel like part of a swarm coming to overpower a clanner but it would die out pretty quick.

Exactly. It'd be a power trip for a while for the clanners. But it'd be ill-earned and meaningless.

[Ghogiel]

the closest I could come to the OPs TDR build is this http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8de028ed2124ffc

Not exactly good is it.

Sjorpha, on 10 July 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

I'd say the EBJ is much better in on the whole, because of the superior peeking, the 5SS is probably better in a short range 1 on 1 brawl with no cover because it can shield better and has durability buffs.

On the other hand I'd say a UAC20 + SRM/SPL or SPL + SRM EBJ could probably outbrawl a 5SS close range, dat DPS is mad.

Have you practiced 1v1 with the 5SS vs the EBJ in brawl config?

[Chuck Jager]

Be aware that battletech lore for clan superior tech and the need to allow mixed is/clan in solo and group Q is a pain to balance.

Remember quirks are cheesy, but the clan bonuses are lore.

[Sjorpha]

Ghogiel, on 10 July 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

Have you practiced 1v1 with the 5SS vs the EBJ in brawl config?

Not as in dedicated duels, no. I just play both of those mechs a lot and that's my best guess. I have been in those matchups a lot in game but there is always so much other factors so hard to say...

The EBJ brawler is more of a glass cannon, but it's insane on the damage front. I think a duel 5SS vs brawler EBJ would come down to whether the EBJ can get a good first alpha in without the TDR catching it on the arms, if the TDR manages to shield long enough to land 2-3 alphas it will have taken out one of the EBJs sides torsos by aiming for one of the ears, or it will have cored the CT.

Close call.

[Necromantion]

Duke Nedo, on 10 July 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

Actually no, I don't only compare range. What I do is to only compare lasers, which is not correct, but it's the current "meta" so... look at the comparisons, range, sustainable dps, beam duration is given and comparable.

What you say about STD is also not very relevant, but the comparison has a more real flaw and that is that an IS mech doesn't have to equip and STD for that tonnage penalty, the penalty of ST death can often be a smaller drawback than the tonnage and therefore many people equip XLs on certain mechs.

Laser boating is not the meta other than on IS right now as the best laser boats on Clan cannot "boat" anymore like they used to. Sure you still see the 4 ERLLas builds but not nearly as often as before.

[-Vompo-]

Necromantion, on 10 July 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

Laser boating is not the meta other than on IS right now as the best laser boats on Clan cannot "boat" anymore like they used to. Sure you still see the 4 ERLLas builds but not nearly as often as before.

So is the clan meta ballistics or missiles now?
I usually see mostly laser builds with some mixed Gauss and that is pretty much what I used to see even before the stormcrow and timberwolf nerfs.