37 replies to this topic

[Necromantion]

Edit since most people dont get the main point of this post: This has to do with firepower adjustments and how people got adjustments to bring that in line, nothing else. Basically the IS masses got adjustments for what they wanted and are now complaining that without quirks the mechs would be garbage as if the quirks somehow arent there or dont matter despite being there...



So since the Clan invasion and CW began there has been a significant amount of debate around the balance of Clan VS IS play and for good reason as when clans came out they were undoubtedly overpowered.

Over the months that passed we saw many weapons tweaks, quirks and negative quirks

After that was recognized to not really fix the problem and that PGI wanted the Clan weapons still to have different feels and characteristics from the IS weapons they introduced quirks. These quirks have bounced around a bit since then as sometimes they resulted in broken mechs but ultimately a decent balance was found using negative and positive quirks to help out mechs that needed some love on both sides of the table and to slightly nerf some clan mechs that were too strong.

Anyways...

Most competent players will agree that the disparity between the two factions isnt significant and that if you took the exact same group and made them face each other IS VS Clan it would be a very tight match.

But now I am seeing something on the forums that makes me unsure whether to laugh or shake my head.

Now that mathematically it can be shown that with quirks a good amount of IS mechs have better damage to heat ratios, shorter burn times and the like I am seeing players complaining that WITHOUT the quirks the mechs would be garbage now...

Are some of you just here to complain? Seriously if they buffed IS some other way other than giving you the exact same weapons as clans have and all the other varying dynamics would you complain about that too?

So what if quirks are necessary to bring IS mechs in line? If you truly cared about balance that would shut you up but it hasnt.

Anyone with half a brain has realized that there are a good portion of mechs on both sides of the table that are mediocre at best due to various things like mobility, hardpoints, ergonomics and the like. And yes IS has more of those because currently they have about 2x if not more mechs possible to field in the game.


So in closing:
When you whine and get the changes that you want stop complaining when they dont work in the exact way you want them to, learn to adapt, if you refuse to adapt and play what you want how you want then you reap what you sow.

Also learn to give things time people, good grief.

Edited by Necromantion, 10 July 2015 - 09:10 AM.

[Averen]

That's a pretty long post considering it's basically a contemplation about how right you are, all skilled people agree to you, and only bad players disagree with you.

[Necromantion]

If you want I can provide links to oodles of "nerf IS" or "nerf Clans" posts where there is plenty of proof to back up what I said here.

Also the only point I am trying to make here is that players are complaining about quirks that they have now that bring a good portion of IS mechs balance against clans when they spent months complaining they wanted balance. Now that they have it (despite PGI still needing to spread the love to a lot more IS chassis) they are complaining about how its implemented.

[El Bandito]

Necromantion, on 10 July 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

If you want I can provide links to oodles of "nerf IS" or "nerf Clans" posts where there is plenty of proof to back up what I said here.

Also the only point I am trying to make here is that players are complaining about quirks that they have now that bring a good portion of IS mechs balance against clans when they spent months complaining they wanted balance. Now that they have it (despite PGI still needing to spread the love to a lot more IS chassis) they are complaining about how its implemented.

That's cause the Clan vs. IS balance was implemented wrong from the outset and need large amount of bandages just to keep them in one piece. The whole weapon/equipment/engine/endo/ferro balance needs to be re-designed from ground up.

[Joseph Mallan]

Necromantion, on 10 July 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

But now I am seeing something on the forums that makes me unsure whether to laugh or shake my head.

You could always just do both at the same time!

[MechaBattler]

Stop complaining!

See how that feels?

It's not going to change anything.

[Joseph Mallan]

MechaBattler, on 10 July 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

Stop complaining!

See how that feels?

It's not going to change anything.

Makes me feel like complaining more Just to prove you wrong!

Then again I'm old and cantankerous. With a job that lets me post on the forum for 8+ hours a day. I can squeaky wheel better than just about anyone!

[Necromantion]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 July 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

Makes me feel like complaining more Just to prove you wrong!

Then again I'm old and cantankerous. With a job that lets me post on the forum for 8+ hours a day. I can squeaky wheel better than just about anyone!

*points to 33k posts*

[Joseph Mallan]

Necromantion, on 10 July 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

If you want I can provide links to oodles of "nerf IS" or "nerf Clans" posts where there is plenty of proof to back up what I said here.

Also the only point I am trying to make here is that players are complaining about quirks that they have now that bring a good portion of IS mechs balance against clans when they spent months complaining they wanted balance. Now that they have it (despite PGI still needing to spread the love to a lot more IS chassis) they are complaining about how its implemented.

Its the internet. Folks will complain cause they were given a million dollars instead of two million!

Necromantion, on 10 July 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

*points to 33k posts*

Yes I did!

[-Vompo-]

There are plenty of people complaining on both sides. "Clans op" "IS over quirked" etc.

Then there are those who offer their own solutions how the balance could be improved without having to go overboard with the quirks.

[ThirtyOughtSix]

Necromantion, on 10 July 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

So since the Clan invasion and CW began there has been a significant amount of debate around the balance of Clan VS IS play and for good reason as when clans came out they were undoubtedly overpowered.

Over the months that passed we saw many weapons tweaks, quirks and negative quirks

After that was recognized to not really fix the problem and that PGI wanted the Clan weapons still to have different feels and characteristics from the IS weapons they introduced quirks. These quirks have bounced around a bit since then as sometimes they resulted in broken mechs but ultimately a decent balance was found using negative and positive quirks to help out mechs that needed some love on both sides of the table and to slightly nerf some clan mechs that were too strong.

Anyways...

Most competent players will agree that the disparity between the two factions isnt significant and that if you took the exact same group and made them face each other IS VS Clan it would be a very tight match.

But now I am seeing something on the forums that makes me unsure whether to laugh or shake my head.

Now that mathematically it can be shown that with quirks a good amount of IS mechs have better damage to heat ratios, shorter burn times and the like I am seeing players complaining that WITHOUT the quirks the mechs would be garbage now...

Are some of you just here to complain? Seriously if they buffed IS some other way other than giving you the exact same weapons as clans have and all the other varying dynamics would you complain about that too?

So what if quirks are necessary to bring IS mechs in line? If you truly cared about balance that would shut you up but it hasnt.

Anyone with half a brain has realized that there are a good portion of mechs on both sides of the table that are mediocre at best due to various things like mobility, hardpoints, ergonomics and the like. And yes IS has more of those because currently they have about 2x if not more mechs possible to field in the game.


So in closing:
When you whine and get the changes that you want stop complaining when they dont work in the exact way you want them to, learn to adapt, if you refuse to adapt and play what you want how you want then you reap what you sow.

Also learn to give things time people, good grief.

*Shakes my head*

Given your arguement above you have taken into account the trees in the woods for the forest! You specifically mention quirks align damage and heat ratios. All well and good. I agree WEAPON quirks make things more even. But, this is where I am shaking my head, have you considered the armor/structure/internals into play? There is a huge and I myself estimate 25% bonus to clan mechs HP due to these factors. Just saying weapons are on par isn't enough to level the field.

[Lugh]

ThirtyOughtSix, on 10 July 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

*Shakes my head*

Given your arguement above you have taken into account the trees in the woods for the forest! You specifically mention quirks align damage and heat ratios. All well and good. I agree WEAPON quirks make things more even. But, this is where I am shaking my head, have you considered the armor/structure/internals into play? There is a huge and I myself estimate 25% bonus to clan mechs HP due to these factors. Just saying weapons are on par isn't enough to level the field.

Math to prove please, because they sure don't feel more durable to me.

People here say "SCR are so OP nothing registers on them" However, when my SCR peeks it gets obliterated. Arms fly off, torsos disappear. So, please show me this superiority...

[Necromantion]

ThirtyOughtSix, on 10 July 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

*Shakes my head*

Given your arguement above you have taken into account the trees in the woods for the forest! You specifically mention quirks align damage and heat ratios. All well and good. I agree WEAPON quirks make things more even. But, this is where I am shaking my head, have you considered the armor/structure/internals into play? There is a huge and I myself estimate 25% bonus to clan mechs HP due to these factors. Just saying weapons are on par isn't enough to level the field.

Oh im aware that there are variances in regards to more than just the weapons but XL engines, heatsinks and the like. And being the Battletech fan that you are I would assume you would be aware that there should be discrepancies between the two factions and can also concede that without differences there would be no point in having the two factions, correct?

Once again people are missing the point of this post. People complained about firepower being the biggest discrepancy at the get go, now there are things that have been done to adjust that and they complain that without the whined for adjustments the mechs are garbage underneath those quirks as if the quirks didnt somehow exist because they arent the exact same weapons the clans have.

[Rhaythe]

IS and ClanTech are very closely competitive. The *average* IS and Clan mech you find in a game, typically, are not.

Why?

Because cost of entry. The low income of the Paulconomy means that players with little starting income will be drawn to IS mechs that are, on a whole, cheaper. They will field cheaper and less-capable mechs. The average starting mech for an IS player is not on par with the average starting mech for a Clan player. The clan mech simply comes with too many "extras" that make it competitive out of the box.

So take any game in Mechwarrior Online. Take the average mech build. Chances are, the Inner Sphere mechs are poorer-built and less capable than their opposing clan counterparts based on the starting baseline alone. This feeds into the perception of imbalance at the general ranks, with high balance at the competitive ranks.

So yes. That's my theory. In my head, the apple is redder than the orange, and the orange rounder than the apple.

[ThirtyOughtSix]

Necromantion, on 10 July 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

Oh im aware that there are variances in regards to more than just the weapons but XL engines, heatsinks and the like. And being the Battletech fan that you are I would assume you would be aware that there should be discrepancies between the two factions and can also concede that without differences there would be no point in having the two factions, correct?

Once again people are missing the point of this post. People complained about firepower being the biggest discrepancy at the get go, now there are things that have been done to adjust that and they complain that without the whined for adjustments the mechs are garbage underneath those quirks as if the quirks didnt somehow exist because they arent the exact same weapons the clans have.

Aye I do like Battletech. However, having one side be better worked in books. It created great anxiety and story. In a video game it holds FAR less merit. I'd love to keep on the same lines as canon. But, it's bad for business. That's all I need to say. Weaker parts of companies shut down and get spun off, just like the IS will be. You cant do that in a fluid environment that has no story. It's just a game in real time.

Edited by ThirtyOughtSix, 10 July 2015 - 09:13 AM.

[Lostdragon]

El Bandito, on 10 July 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

That's cause the Clan vs. IS balance was implemented wrong from the outset and need large amount of bandages just to keep them in one piece. The whole weapon/equipment/engine/endo/ferro balance needs to be re-designed from ground up.

You could do that, or you could just redesign the heat system. I think that would be much easier and you could get rid of ghost heat, limit huge alphas, and easily adjust weapons that need love or need to be brought down a peg.

Rhaythe, on 10 July 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

IS and ClanTech are very closely competitive. The *average* IS and Clan mech you find in a game, typically, are not.

Why?

Because cost of entry. The low income of the Paulconomy means that players with little starting income will be drawn to IS mechs that are, on a whole, cheaper. They will field cheaper and less-capable mechs. The average starting mech for an IS player is not on par with the average starting mech for a Clan player. The clan mech simply comes with too many "extras" that make it competitive out of the box.

So take any game in Mechwarrior Online. Take the average mech build. Chances are, the Inner Sphere mechs are poorer-built and less capable than their opposing clan counterparts based on the starting baseline alone. This feeds into the perception of imbalance at the general ranks, with high balance at the competitive ranks.

So yes. That's my theory. In my head, the apple is redder than the orange, and the orange rounder than the apple.

I don't really feel like this is happening in the games that I'm playing, but I doubt I'm seeing many new players either. I would say 80-90% of the mechs I see have a loadout that is not absolutely terrible and sometimes I see players I know are good running builds that are bad just for kicks (I do this too sometimes).

[Necromantion]

Rhaythe, on 10 July 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

IS and ClanTech are very closely competitive. The *average* IS and Clan mech you find in a game, typically, are not.

Why?

Because cost of entry. The low income of the Paulconomy means that players with little starting income will be drawn to IS mechs that are, on a whole, cheaper. They will field cheaper and less-capable mechs. The average starting mech for an IS player is not on par with the average starting mech for a Clan player. The clan mech simply comes with too many "extras" that make it competitive out of the box.

So take any game in Mechwarrior Online. Take the average mech build. Chances are, the Inner Sphere mechs are poorer-built and less capable than their opposing clan counterparts based on the starting baseline alone. This feeds into the perception of imbalance at the general ranks, with high balance at the competitive ranks.

So yes. That's my theory. In my head, the apple is redder than the orange, and the orange rounder than the apple.

Cheaper to pick up and play yes, not cheaper to optimize and configure optimally. Sadly that information is not given to new players.

ThirtyOughtSix, on 10 July 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

Aye I do like Battletech. However, having one side be better worked in books. It created great anxiety and story. In a video game it holds FAR less merit. I'd love to keep on the same lines as canon. But, it's bad for business. That's all I need to say. Weaker parts of companies shut down and get spun off, just like the IS will be. You cant do that in a fluid environment that has no story. It's just a game in real time.

Oh I am more than aware and totally for more of a balance but there should be weaknesses and strengths to each faction and that is how I feel things are currently, yes more IS mechs need quirks to bring more inline with being useful as I have a lot of IS mechs I wouldnt touch right now due to non existent or subpar quirks.

[Rhaythe]

Necromantion, on 10 July 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

Cheaper to pick up and play yes, not cheaper to optimize and configure optimally. Sadly that information is not given to new players.

A very true point. But it still results in a lower baseline.

[Necromantion]

Rhaythe, on 10 July 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

A very true point. But it still results in a lower baseline.

Oh im more than aware, I have suggested many times that this game needs more informative tutorials beyond movement/firing controls and a gating system.

[Gyrok]

ThirtyOughtSix, on 10 July 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

*Shakes my head*

Given your arguement above you have taken into account the trees in the woods for the forest! You specifically mention quirks align damage and heat ratios. All well and good. I agree WEAPON quirks make things more even. But, this is where I am shaking my head, have you considered the armor/structure/internals into play? There is a huge and I myself estimate 25% bonus to clan mechs HP due to these factors. Just saying weapons are on par isn't enough to level the field.

Considering the fact that the IS has significantly large structure buffs, and capability to use STD engines...I flatly believe you to be a compulsive liar.

The Zeus single handedly has STs that require more damage than DW STs to remove. HGN-732B has most armor of any mech in the entire game.

Edited by Gyrok, 10 July 2015 - 10:35 AM.