37 replies to this topic

[zagibu]

This thread must have the least fitting title in the history of threads. In all forums. Around the world.

[Gas Guzzler]

OK I will start by saying i think Clan vs IS balance is okay primarily due to the top IS performers.

BUT

Gyrok, what if I want to run an XL engine so I can bring comparable firepower? Then what?

Necro, most of the "without quirks.." arguments exist because SOME people argue that IS weapons are better than Clan weapons WITHOUT quirks, and Clan players complain that IS is OP because of their quirks, when wiithout their structure buffs and cooldown and range buffs the mechs would be at a HUGE disadvantage, but they can't accept that for some reason. Some people insist that bad mechs getting extra structure/armor is somehow a problem. Some people forget that even though the HGN-732B has a lot of bonus armor, all you have to do is destroy its RT to neuter it. They also conveniently forget that mechs like the "Nopeva" can tank more damage than an XL Victor before dying.

Once again to reiterate my disclaimer, I don't think the IS is really at much of a disadvantage (but were in a comp setting with no restrictions, my choices would be FS9/RVN-2X, SCR, EBJ/HBR/TBR, DWF, I would look nowhere else), but I would like more of a variety (like more competitive heavies than just a 65 ton MPL boat) and I don't think some of the larger quirks that enhance durability and agility are nearly as much of a problem as the 50% cooldown quirks, and I also don't think STD engines are the equal to the cXL engine.

[-Vompo-]

Gyrok, on 10 July 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Considering the fact that the IS has significantly large structure buffs, and capability to use STD engines...I flatly believe you to be a compulsive liar.

The Zeus single handedly has STs that require more damage than DW STs to remove. HGN-732B has most armor of any mech in the entire game.

Never seen a clanner wanting a standard engine before... I'll swap my standard to your xl in a heart beat.

[ThirtyOughtSix]

Gyrok, on 10 July 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Considering the fact that the IS has significantly large structure buffs, and capability to use STD engines...I flatly believe you to be a compulsive liar.

The Zeus single handedly has STs that require more damage than DW STs to remove. HGN-732B has most armor of any mech in the entire game.

You call me a liar, for what friggin purpose would I lie?

Really? Take this account and tell me IS has more general HP:
Most IS mechs NEED XL engines to match(or even close the gap) fire power of clan mechs.
Then take a look at how IS mechs are constantly ST focused because of this? STs IN GENERAL have what 2/3 the health of a CT?
This is where I get my basic dumbed down formula for HP. Because IS dies by ST, not CT.

Direct CT to a CT is a different story. But, in my experience I die to ST more often than not in IS mechs. Because if I twist I usually take the brunt of damage on ST.

Edit: Ok I lied, I meant to say if I am good enough to twist. Oops lies, tisk tisk.

Edited by ThirtyOughtSix, 10 July 2015 - 11:20 AM.

[Averen]

Gyrok, on 10 July 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Considering the fact that the IS has significantly large structure buffs, and capability to use STD engines...I flatly believe you to be a compulsive liar.

The Zeus single handedly has STs that require more damage than DW STs to remove. HGN-732B has most armor of any mech in the entire game.

It pretty funny how both of these mechs are seens as sub par, even compared to other IS mechs, isn't it?

[Joseph Mallan]

VompoVompatti, on 10 July 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

Never seen a clanner wanting a standard engine before... I'll swap my standard to your xl in a heart beat.

Some people always want what the other guy has.

[TWIAFU]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2015 - 03:44 AM, said:

Some people always want what the other guy has.

And if they don't get it, the other guy has to lose his.

[Joseph Mallan]

TWIAFU, on 11 July 2015 - 03:53 AM, said:

And if they don't get it, the other guy has to lose his.

True story. I was told on more than one occasion that it's about time the UAW workers feel the pinch of being non Union. Sad way to think, I would prefer everyone have the protection and benefits I get to enjoy. But you are right those that don't have would rather take away from than to be added to most times.

[Jon Gotham]

I use both clan and Is mechs.
The Is has more efficient damage output
From my own observations from playing BOTH sets of tech in CW (vs some damn good premades) and pugland.
Clan tech does more base damage, but this is over a longer duration for more heat. IS does slightly less damage over a shorter duration and for less heat...and factor in quirks this can be MAGNIFIED MANY TIMES OVER.
Now on a say 4 second contact window with an enemy the clanner will aim, shoot and hit. what will happen is, his Is target will obviously twist to spread the damage. due to the longer burn time...the damage gets spread over several components-MORE than the equivalent Is weapon would spread. So MORE of the IS weapon's potential damage gets put where it is meant to go as compared to the clan weapon.
So for the clanner to be as efficient with per hit delivery clanner has to mount more weapons because a larger portion of his damage is inefficient. But then this causes increased heat so he can fire less...thus widening the gap even further....
The majority of MWO fights are peek a boo affairs that heavily favour IS PP FLD and short duration lasers.

I just don't get why people keep going on about clan weapons and XL engines. I've found in cw especially best way is to tear into them, make them brawl and cook themselves and twist like crazy. My clan mechs only really feel strong in the pug queue where you tend to face less skilled opponents i.e you are able to get full burns in because you target don't twist etc...
But to say they are still op...uh?!

Edited by kamiko kross, 11 July 2015 - 04:53 AM.

[Averen]

kamiko kross, on 11 July 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

Clan tech does more base damage, but this is over a longer duration for more heat. IS does slightly less damage over a shorter duration and for less heat...and factor in quirks this can be MAGNIFIED MANY TIMES OVER.

We won't get anywhere when even constantly refuted arguments like this exist. Lets magnify the important things, shall we?

Comparision: A clan ERML vs ISML, classic example of IS/clan tech difference:

IS-ML does 5 damage over 0.9s at 270m and 4 heat.
CERML does 40% more damage over 35% more duration at 50% higher range and 50% more heat.

Which means a CERML- salvo does more damage per second than an IS-ML. Damage per heat for IS-ML is 0.8, damage per heat for CERML is 0.84.
Result: CERML is a minimum hotter and does more damage over it's burst as well as over the IS-MLs 0.9s timeframe.

And now lets look at it in context: Clan mechs have save XLs, therfor more tonnage and more slot efficiency. Which allows them to equip far more DHS than a comparable IS-Mech, making them far cooler than said IS mech.
A non-mastered nova shoots a 72pt alpha at 50% heat, a mastered Wubshee gets 58pt at 68% heat. Which is btw also 45 tons heavier and only has a minimal range advantage (CERSL 205 range, IS-MPL 220 range).
Also, the Nova still carries a bunch of jumpjets around and don't even get me started about the StormCrow.

Now you might think about quirks, but then you'll need to answer one question:
Which IS mech has ML quirks that give them 50% more damage, 50% more range, all the while making the mech 33% faster and giving him XL-tonnage out of nowhere? I don't think anyone would complain about a laughable 35% negative duration quirk on top.

Edited by Averen, 11 July 2015 - 05:39 AM.

[Zaccheus]

Necromantion, on 10 July 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

Oh im aware that there are variances in regards to more than just the weapons but XL engines, heatsinks and the like. And being the Battletech fan that you are I would assume you would be aware that there should be discrepancies between the two factions and can also concede that without differences there would be no point in having the two factions, correct?

Once again people are missing the point of this post. People complained about firepower being the biggest discrepancy at the get go, now there are things that have been done to adjust that and they complain that without the whined for adjustments the mechs are garbage underneath those quirks as if the quirks didnt somehow exist because they arent the exact same weapons the clans have.

OK just think for a second. Maybe it's different people complaining, the forums aren't a monolith. There are many people with many differing opinions, complaining about people complaining about things is even dumber than believing the people complaining g about X are now the same people complaining about Y.

[Kiiyor]

Necromantion, on 10 July 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

But now I am seeing something on the forums that makes me unsure whether to laugh or shake my head.

Now that mathematically it can be shown that with quirks a good amount of IS mechs have better damage to heat ratios, shorter burn times and the like I am seeing players complaining that WITHOUT the quirks the mechs would be garbage now...

Are some of you just here to complain? Seriously if they buffed IS some other way other than giving you the exact same weapons as clans have and all the other varying dynamics would you complain about that too?

But... is it really something people shouldn't complain about... if it's true?

Because it's true.

Without quirks, the vast majority if inner sphere mechs would be garbage now.

And if something wasn't done to bridge the gap between the sphere and the clans, there'd be a whole lot more complaining going on.

[Jon Gotham]

Averen, on 11 July 2015 - 05:33 AM, said:

We won't get anywhere when even constantly refuted arguments like this exist. Lets magnify the important things, shall we?

Comparision: A clan ERML vs ISML, classic example of IS/clan tech difference:

IS-ML does 5 damage over 0.9s at 270m and 4 heat.
CERML does 40% more damage over 35% more duration at 50% higher range and 50% more heat.

Which means a CERML- salvo does more damage per second than an IS-ML. Damage per heat for IS-ML is 0.8, damage per heat for CERML is 0.84.
Result: CERML is a minimum hotter and does more damage over it's burst as well as over the IS-MLs 0.9s timeframe.

And now lets look at it in context: Clan mechs have save XLs, therfor more tonnage and more slot efficiency. Which allows them to equip far more DHS than a comparable IS-Mech, making them far cooler than said IS mech.
A non-mastered nova shoots a 72pt alpha at 50% heat, a mastered Wubshee gets 58pt at 68% heat. Which is btw also 45 tons heavier and only has a minimal range advantage (CERSL 205 range, IS-MPL 220 range).
Also, the Nova still carries a bunch of jumpjets around and don't even get me started about the StormCrow.

Now you might think about quirks, but then you'll need to answer one question:
Which IS mech has ML quirks that give them 50% more damage, 50% more range, all the while making the mech 33% faster and giving him XL-tonnage out of nowhere? I don't think anyone would complain about a laughable 35% negative duration quirk on top.

Sorry, I don't compare weapons like that. Maths is maths. Experience is all. All I know is what I see with my eyes and the fights I'm in. IS mechs are more efficient at placing damage where it needs to go. You can have all the brute damage you like, but if it don't go where it's needed to and the other guy's does-you are dead.
The IS teams I drop with in CW regularly use this to their advantage vs clan teams, clanners really struggle in short range peeking fights when we bring a whole brawl wave loaded up with FLDPP. Then add quirks on top of that......

To mute all this anti clan rage why not make them all the same as IS tech with different models?

[Averen]

kamiko kross, on 11 July 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

Sorry, I don't compare weapons like that. Maths is maths. Experience is all. All I know is what I see with my eyes and the fights I'm in. IS mechs are more efficient at placing damage where it needs to go. You can have all the brute damage you like, but if it don't go where it's needed to and the other guy's does-you are dead.
The IS teams I drop with in CW regularly use this to their advantage vs clan teams, clanners really struggle in short range peeking fights when we bring a whole brawl wave loaded up with FLDPP. Then add quirks on top of that......

To mute all this anti clan rage why not make them all the same as IS tech with different models?

Yeah, deny logic, don't argue anything, and then pretend your general feelings are a perfect measurement for balance. Perfect match for OP, i'd say.

[Novakaine]

I still maintain that Inner Sphere 12 mechs vs. Clan 10 mechs would have solved the problem.

[Averen]

Novakaine, on 11 July 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

I still maintain that Inner Sphere 12 mechs vs. Clan 10 mechs would have solved the problem.

Would have caused trouble if one population at a time is bigger than the other, tho. Imangine 10% of the Userbase bought Clan waves (probably too optimistic for PGI), that would mean their waiting times are around 8 times as long as for the IS.

It's true that the current modell just doesn't work out, tho.

[Seal Farmer]

Clans are very strong from what i see, with their XL engine helping them a lot. when a normal mech would die they keep firing and doing damage

Edited by Seal Farmer, 11 July 2015 - 05:56 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

Averen, on 11 July 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

Yeah, deny logic, don't argue anything, and then pretend your general feelings are a perfect measurement for balance. Perfect match for OP, i'd say.

You can spew all the maths you like to back your stance up-but maths doesn't always work in the field so to speak. My point is still 100% valid despite your figures.
If I can put my damage (even if it less raw damage) exactly where I want it more times and more efficiently than you can-you are dead.
That is logic, and that is what I see, experience and DO. Same goes for the people I play with.
Theory is fine and encouraged, but often falls apart when tested in real environments.
Your numbers mean nothing until proven in combat.