97 replies to this topic

[SirNotlag]

1) Like

2) its the only thing that makes the information warefare in this game interesting,

3) I May like it but i dont think its implementation is perfect I would still buff anti ecm equipment by a bit, as the effort to overcome it is rather high.
-Id have Narc override ecm period, a mech hit by a narc would not be able to hide under an ecm bubble any more. With the warning you get as soon as a narc has landed on you there's no excuse not to run for cover before the LRM rain starts hitting you. Perhaps make AMS alittle more effective at shooting down Narcs to compensate for this.
-PPC and ER PPC anti ecm time buffed to 10 seconds or more rather than the 4 seconds it is now. making PPCs the go to anti ecm weapon.
-Make it so the IS command console neutralizes an ecm at 300m and has better stats making it a super BAP till PGI can think of something interesting to do with it.

I wonder how many people know that ppcs shut down an ecm for a couple seconds after hitting the ecm carrier. Its not much but its long enough that hitting every shot from an unquirked PPC the ecm never gets back online.

Edited by SirNotlag, 12 July 2015 - 11:58 AM.

[stjobe]

SirNotlag, on 12 July 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

With the warning you get as soon as a narc has landed on you

You get a warning now? Man, I get Narced to seldom apparently...

When did this happen?

Edit: May 5th patch, apparently.

Edited by stjobe, 12 July 2015 - 12:07 PM.

[Sable]

ECM needs to be split up into personal and bubble with bubble weighing more tonnage.

[C E Dwyer]

1 I'm in different to it

2 Why

Because it has little effect on how I play, even when I take a LRM boat into town, my Tag works at 750 meters, Frankly the maximum range you should be using LRMS, which negates ECM, Radar Dep is far more annoying to a lurm boat if its properly set up. if your using a streak boat, and you don't have BAP or CAP then more fool you.

Just because the red triangle isn't there, if you can see it you can shoot it, frankly I like it not being there because some fool isn't trying to shoot through a mountain or members of their team, because they can see the red square from anothers targeting.

3 doesn't need fixing, its easy to negate or adapt to with the wider radius that bap effects it

[aniviron]

I could go on about this for days- in fact, I wrote a 2200 word novella about it last year. But the fact of the matter is that while ECM is probably too good right now (more for the denial of targeting info than LRM lock denial) what really galls me about it is not so much that it's too good or bad, but that it should be a part of an interesting and fun electronic warfare battle happening in game, but instead it's essentially the only piece of ewar equipment worth using, and it's a boring binary function that requires almost no thought or user input to get the most out of.

It's a gigantic missed opportunity for something that should have been fun and added depth to the game. That's what sticks in my craw, not the balance of it currently.

Edited by aniviron, 12 July 2015 - 01:44 PM.

[Johnny Z]

I am 100% convinced ECM shouldnt cover more than the mech it is equipped on and that a new ecm has to be added to cover group. I also almost sure that this is what Mechwarrior Online is going to do.

Will ECM be involved with this rebalance thing?

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 July 2015 - 01:46 PM.

[Nightmare1]

1) Dislike

2) Not powerful enough. Own three Mechs with ECM (1xKit Fox, 1xCOM-2D, 1xLCT-PB).

3) ECM is only good at about mid to long range. Any closer and TAG, NARC, or BAP takes it out. It's really difficult to work in close to the enemy group to make those backstabs or to scout.

I actually got killed by LRMs the other night because the stupid ECM got TAGged. I broke LOS but didn't have Rader Dep on. Didn't think I needed it with ECM.

Silly me.

Frankly, ECM doesn't do much for me. Enemies always seem to know where I'm at. About the only thing good is that it provides mass protection from LRMs, but teams employing TAG and Narc can overcome that very effectively. I quit investing in ECM Mechs.

On the receiving end of ECM, I actually don't mind fighting it. It takes up tonnage that can't be used for weapons, heat sinks, or ammo on an enemy Mech. The jamming lets me know when enemies are close. It's also normally a sign that there's a bunch of them, so it gives away a stealth attack. Taking out Lokis and Cataphracts that have ECM isn't hard to do either.

I really don't get all the hype about ECM. You'd think it had an extra feature such as armor hardening or something the way everyone either raves or rages about it. I guess I just feel like shrugging my shoulders over the whole thing.

Bottomline: Nice for Lights but not much use beyond scouting.

Edited by Nightmare1, 12 July 2015 - 02:33 PM.

[Pjwned]

I wonder if the upcoming "huge balance pass" is going to actually address ECM, which I'm somewhat hopeful for because an ECM rework would sure fit in pretty well, but considering we barely know anything about it and PGI's track record of terrible balancing it is a little hard to tell.

As for what I think about ECM:

Bush Hopper, on 12 July 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

I was wondering how other players perceive ECM currently. So please if you want to share your thoughts keep it brief and simple (see below) and don't start a flame war.

1. Like/Dislike

2. Reason(s):

3. How would you change it if you could

=====================================================================

I will start.

1. Dislike

2. Reasons:
- too powerful (can hide a whole company, you can run in front of a fire line which is outside BAP and you even don't know it - you are dead, especially as a light, weight too low, hardcounter for a whole weapon system etc etc etc)
- Radar becomes obsolete
- better hitreg makes ECM even better because getting in free shots is now more importantz than ever
- which role does it have in the game? Hardcounter for the supposedly weak LRMs?

3. I would limit it to the mech carrying the ECM

Juodas Varnas, on 12 July 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

I hate it.

It should be changed into an actual COUNTERMEASURES suite instead of the Deus Ex Machina it is now.
-It should NOT prevent targeting.
-It should NOT prevent missile locks (neither LRM nor SSRM).
-It should negate Artemis IV, TAG, BAP and NARC (instead of the other way around, where TAG, NARC and BAP are the ones that "counter the countermeasures")
-It should increase the time (or completely prevent) targeting information gathering (getting the paperdoll of the enemy mech)

If PGI is so scared of LRMs coming back for a second Lurmageddon, they should rebalance LRM indirect/direct fire capabilities, by severely increasing the missiles spread while shooting indirectly, while highly increasing missile speed and shallowing the missile trajectory, while using them for direct fire (with your own lock-on).

Pretty much agreed with these posts entirely, so I don't need to say much else.

Edited by Pjwned, 12 July 2015 - 03:23 PM.

[aniviron]

Nightmare1, on 12 July 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

1) Dislike

2) Not powerful enough. Own three Mechs with ECM (1xKit Fox, 1xCOM-2D, 1xLCT-PB).

3) ECM is only good at about mid to long range. Any closer and TAG, NARC, or BAP takes it out. It's really difficult to work in close to the enemy group to make those backstabs or to scout.

I actually got killed by LRMs the other night because the stupid ECM got TAGged. I broke LOS but didn't have Rader Dep on. Didn't think I needed it with ECM.

Silly me.

Frankly, ECM doesn't do much for me. Enemies always seem to know where I'm at. About the only thing good is that it provides mass protection from LRMs, but teams employing TAG and Narc can overcome that very effectively. I quit investing in ECM Mechs.

On the receiving end of ECM, I actually don't mind fighting it. It takes up tonnage that can't be used for weapons, heat sinks, or ammo on an enemy Mech. The jamming lets me know when enemies are close. It's also normally a sign that there's a bunch of them, so it gives away a stealth attack. Taking out Lokis and Cataphracts that have ECM isn't hard to do either.

I really don't get all the hype about ECM. You'd think it had an extra feature such as armor hardening or something the way everyone either raves or rages about it. I guess I just feel like shrugging my shoulders over the whole thing.

Bottomline: Nice for Lights but not much use beyond scouting.

I think that's largely because of the mechs you're using it on. Go use it on a RVN-3L, or a Hellbringer, a GRF-2N, or an Atlas. The three mechs you listed are all among the worst chassis in the game- ECM is really the only thing keeping them from becoming totally obsolete.

[stjobe]

aniviron, on 12 July 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

I think that's largely because of the mechs you're using it on. Go use it on a RVN-3L, or a Hellbringer, a GRF-2N, or an Atlas. The three mechs you listed are all among the worst chassis in the game- ECM is really the only thing keeping them from becoming totally obsolete.

Much as I love my COM-2D, competitive it is not. The PB is a Locust of which I own three, and none of them is competitive either - even with their uber-quirks. I can't imagine adding 1.5 tons of ECM would make them any more competitive.

I don't do Clans, so no idea about the KFX.

[Nightmare1]

aniviron, on 12 July 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

I think that's largely because of the mechs you're using it on. Go use it on a RVN-3L, or a Hellbringer, a GRF-2N, or an Atlas. The three mechs you listed are all among the worst chassis in the game- ECM is really the only thing keeping them from becoming totally obsolete.

I'm not particularly interesting in those chassis.

As far as effectiveness, I really don't have any trouble popping any of those Mechs you listed. ECM just doesn't impress me. It's over hyped.

[Goose]

If ECM was treated as a game mode, something you could opt out of, how do you think we'd all vote?

Radar Derp? Decky? Sensor Rage? Target Info? Sismeck? 360?

[aniviron]

stjobe, on 12 July 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

I don't do Clans, so no idea about the KFX.

I own the line of them. Has the same armor as a spider at nearly twice the size, according to the graph that's been floating around. Like every other non-35 ton light mech, you can put up really good damage numbers with the right combination of skill and luck, but overall it's a woeful underperformer, and the same pilot with the same luck will easily put up 2-3x the damage in a FS9.

Oh, and taking ECM means sacrificing a big chunk of your hardpoints.

[bad arcade kitty]

aniviron, on 12 July 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

I own the line of them. Has the same armor as a spider at nearly twice the size, according to the graph that's been floating around. Like every other non-35 ton light mech, you can put up really good damage numbers with the right combination of skill and luck, but overall it's a woeful underperformer, and the same pilot with the same luck will easily put up 2-3x the damage in a FS9.

Oh, and taking ECM means sacrificing a big chunk of your hardpoints.

well they can have an armament of a med mech though with their 14.5 tons of podspace with maxed armor

they are played completely differently than spiders and firestarters and should be compared to mechs like panther and urbi

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 12 July 2015 - 04:47 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

1. Like/Dislike:

Love and hate.

2. Reason(s):

I like what it does for the user. I dislike that it is just as powerful for the carrier as it is for those around it.

3. How would you change it if you could:

Current mechanism for ECM for the carrier only. Allow mechs within the bubble to be targeted, however do not allow for sensor sharing with allies. IE: You have LOS on bubbled enemy mechs, you can lock onto them, but your allies who do not have LOS on those mechs do not have them on their radar until they get LOS on them as well. This forces people to get their own sensor locks on enemy mechs under the bubble, forcing a more active, self sufficient playstyle. Mechs covered by ECM get the defensive bonus of being unshared on enemy targeting data.

Additional changes involve lock ons being allowed by LRM fire if you have LOS on bubbled non-carriers, but it will not have the benefit of Artemis. TAG works for missile accuracy and can force a shared lock for allied mechs as the sensors are locking onto the TAG laser, not the enemy mech per say, even if your allies have no LOS on the shielded mechs. Further, any SSRM under the ECM bubble no longer lock on but are permitted to dumbfire like standard SRMs.

Edit:

I would also increase the range that (B)AP counters ECM, but limit it to certain variants/omnipods like how ECM is currently limited. That way you either choose to take an ECM platform or you choose to take a counter-platform.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 12 July 2015 - 05:07 PM.

[Matthew Ace]

Note: ECM and AP refers to both IS and Clan version in this post.

1) Dislike

2) It offers too much for its cost, despite the available counters to it. It also possibly discourage implementation of the more potent canon ECM mechs (FS9-S1 anyone?).

3) For starters, GECM and Clan ECM need to stop blocking locks. Instead, have it nullify Artemis advantages. The advantage continues to benefit friendlies.

With that done, it may not be necessary to get hard-countered by AP, and then giving the AP the opportunity to be tweaked as well. Make it such that having both ECM and AP wont block off some of AP's function anymore as well.

Versus NARC: Keeping it in the current implementation would allow NARC to be useful even without friendly LRMs.

Maybe ECM will block off enemy AP as well but alerting AP equipped Mech of ECM presence (You won't be alerted to enemy ECM presence without AP, just like TT)


OFF-TOPIC - Active Probes

Spoiler

1) AP loses its ECM counter, but is required to alert user presence of enemy ECM.

2) Getting enemy loadout and variant no longer possible without AP. Equipping AP will allow getting enemy loadout and variant just like now.

3) AP allows you to track targeted enemy heat level and detect enemy presence within 120m radius (similar to seismic sensor, but includes stationary targets AND while moving.)

3) It will augment certain modules, such as 360deg target retention. Maybe extend range from 200m to 250m if both are equipped.

4) All other existing benefits are kept.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 12 July 2015 - 05:26 PM.

[mailin]

Novakaine, on 12 July 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Well since I can't use the lord's name in vain I'll just say this.
ECM should not counter a tag laser beam which it freaking does.
And does bap even work now, I can't freaking tell

ECM does NOT counter a TAG. In fact, it's the other way around. And yes, BAP does indeed work, but if you're running a clanner with Clan Active Probe, you must lock the enemy ECM mech for it to be effective. Similarly, with TAG, shine the laser and lock the target. Maybe you aren't locking the target?

As far as the original question, I like where ECM is now. One thing that I think is funny though is that I see a LOT of mech drivers who think it's a magical God box and don't know how to use it properly and/or don't realize how many counters there are to it.

There's a missile counter (NARC), an energy counter (TAG) and two counters that acts like ballistics (PPC and ERPPC). Also there are two equipment counters BAP and ECM and a consumable module counter (UAV). How many other counters do you want for one piece of equipment?

Honestly, I'm surprised that there is still so much complaining about one piece of equipment.

AND we still have comms to use.

[bad arcade kitty]

mailin, on 12 July 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

ECM does NOT counter a TAG. In fact, it's the other way around.

well, honestly they each counter each other, tag doesn't work at all in the 180 meter ecm zone
not important for lrm boats but important for ssrm users, it's why they cannot get only tag and ditch cap

Quote

As far as the original question, I like where ECM is now. One thing that I think is funny though is that I see a LOT of mech drivers who think it's a magical God box and don't know how to use it properly and/or don't realize how many counters there are to it.

same

they also often cannot even use it albeit it's so simple, i am still amazed of two ecm ravens from a couple of days ago who locked down my streakboat 2v1 (it was an ambush on my part which almost turned bad)... till one of them decided to snipe from a cover, he thought it would be safer than to run nearby (against a helpless mech, lol) and broke the duolock; both died... i didn't even use uav which i forgot of, if i did i bet they would ignore it

[Chuck Jager]

Half the time I think the enemy is under ecm it is just that nobody is locking or able to keep locks. If 2/3 of my team is still 600m back and not even setting up a firing line after 3 minutes that leaves four people to scout and get info while also getting minimal damage etc etc. I watch these same folks at the end of the match chain fire at 20% and they are also at 70% health. Guess what they do not lock targets either. Its really funny the better I get the more of these folks I get on my team. Ecm just makes bad players able to contribute less.

I think that if MM needs to grab such a range of skill levels plus ecm and radar derp stay the same an auto target system shows the red circle on the map while the enemy is targetable. For target info and lrm lock the target still needs to be locked and the dot stays the same solid red. This could help newer players while also rewarding the folks who do try to break up the enemy without hard nerfs to ecm or derp.

probably not the best, but best I could come up with. PS I stop listening if you use anything from lore or TT that is not in the game.

[Ace Selin]

Novakaine, on 12 July 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Well since I can't use the lord's name in vain I'll just say this.
ECM should not counter a tag laser beam which it freaking does.
And does bap even work now, I can't freaking tell

1 ECM doesnt counter a single TAG laser beam, only multiple ECM stacked counter 1 TAG.