97 replies to this topic

[Elkfire]

ECM should only slow locks, not negate targeting completely. And it probably shouldn't give its effects to teammates either, so it feels less "crucial" that your team have more ECM than the enemy, if ECM mechs are present.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Nightmare1, on 12 July 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

2) Not powerful enough.

LOL.
Hes for real?

[Thunder Child]

1: Dislike

2: Because it negates an entire weapon system, because it is a botched version of what could have been an interesting Info-Warfare Dynamic, and because ANY variant of a chassis that DOESN'T mount ECM is immediately inferior to the variant that does. This is especially noticeable for Scout Mechs.

3: Firstly, give the current ECM functionality to ALL Chassis, but in the form of Passive (Disrupt) and Active (Counter) sensors. While Passive, you are unable to target, and unable to be targeted, by another passive mech outside of 250m. A Active Mech can detect a Passive Mech at 500m, but a Passive Mech will still have the 250m restriction. And if both mechs are Active, then they have the current sensor range. You CANNOT get target info while Passive, nor can you lock on with or be locked onto by missiles. Adv Sensor Range Module increases this by x%. Radar Deprivation decreases this range by x%. Additionally, once you switch to Active from Passive, there should be a 5 sec warmup time before your sensors will populate your Hud with Targets. However, you will be visible the moment you go Active.

BAP will only work while Active, but will allow you to target any Passive or Active mechs without LoS within 250m. It will also increase Sensor Range by x%. BAP will be toggle-able. However, any Mech detected by BAP will have a BAP warning on their Hud.

Narc will allow any Active Mech to target the Narced Mech, regardless of the targets sensor settings or LoS, but must be within Maximum Sensor Range of your mech, or a friendly that can relay that range. Narc will not provide targeting data. However, any Mech that has been Narced will have a Narc warning on their Hud. Narc Duration tbd.

TAG will remain as it is, providing the ability to target the TAGGED enemy unit, regardless of the targets sensor settings. The Tagger can also be on passive, but Mechs must have Active Sensors to be able to target the Tagged unit.

ECM will completely negate BAP functionality, and Jam the Narc Beacon. It will be toggle-able. It will not interfere with Missile Targeting. However, any Mech using BAP will have a warning that they are being jammed by ECM. ECM will also block Artemis from working. Possibly reduce enemy detection radius by x% as well.

LRMs will be able to Lock on any Narc Beacon, BAP target, or TAGGED target, or any enemy which is Active, provided the user is Active also. LRMs will be Fire and Forget, once the target is locked, but to get the Lock, the Firer must hold their crosshair over the target for the lockon duration, and must stay in Active Sensor mode until the missiles hit. If they change sensor modes, the missile automatically lose guidance. If the target switches to Passive, the Lock will be lost if the target is outside of Active sensor detection range and is not BAPed, Narced, or Tagged. Indirect LRM Spread will be increased by 75%, with LoS LRM Spread being tightened by 10%. Buffs and Nerfs as appropriate, once balance has been determined.

ECM and BAP may both be no longer hardpoint bound, or both become Hardpoint bound, depending on Balance.

/end of crazy excessive balancing thoughts.

TLDR: All mechs have E-war, with BAP and ECM being modifiers, instead of On/Off switches.

Edited by Thunder Child, 12 July 2015 - 08:55 PM.

[Navy Sixes]

Dislike
Too Powerful with no disadvantages
Unlike others here who believe total LRM-lock negation is only a small part of ECM's advantage, I feel it is absurdly OP. Especially now that PGI has lifted the ECM embargo, and is comfortable slapping it on every third mech they put out (an almost "oh bet on it" sign that the nerf bat is coming down).

Here's the best, most elegant fix I've seen so far:
http://mwomercs.com/...missile-spread/

[MechWarrior3671771]

Yes, it needs to be nerfed.

What I find interesting is that we are allowed to say "magic jesus box" here without being censored. Because if I made up a similar term that mocked the "protected" classes, I would catch all kind of hell. Double standard.


[and no Moderator, I put it back in. Nothing I said was uncivil or against the TOS, if you want to make it an issue, I can do a separate thread every day on it. What you *should* be doing is asking people to call it ECM instead of a term that mocks religion. Because I'm pretty sure that kind of bigotry is against the TOS]

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 13 July 2015 - 04:13 AM.

[Mystere]

I like ECM just the way it is.

See ECM Mech. Kill ECM Mech.

Juodas Varnas, on 12 July 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Well, just because you are incapable of developing ECM or anti-ECM tactics does not mean no one else is.

[Juodas Varnas]

Mystere, on 12 July 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

Well, just because you are incapable of developing ECM or anti-ECM tactics does not mean no one else is.

Actually, i run most of my mechs in "Anti-ECM" builds, that incorporate TAGs, BAPs, NARCs or at least PPCs.

I'm more than capable of dealing with them, however, i'm not blind or stupid enough to not be able to acknowledge that they are way out of line for what they're supposed to be.

[bad arcade kitty]

Juodas Varnas, on 12 July 2015 - 09:45 PM, said:

Actually, i run most of my mechs in "Anti-ECM" builds, that incorporate TAGs, BAPs, NARCs or at least PPCs.

I'm more than capable of dealing with them, however, i'm not blind or stupid enough to not be able to acknowledge that they are way out of line for what they're supposed to be.

i dunno, the weapon which i run 99% of games is negated by ecm and i personally think that ecm is fine and even have a tad too many counters

what do you complain for, you cannot use your eyes when you don't see doritos?

Edited by Rhazien, 13 July 2015 - 03:02 AM.
Language

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

I wouldn't mind if PPC shots disabled ECM for a longer span of time.

[Mystere]

Juodas Varnas, on 12 July 2015 - 09:45 PM, said:

Actually, i run most of my mechs in "Anti-ECM" builds, that incorporate TAGs, BAPs, NARCs or at least PPCs.

I'm more than capable of dealing with them, however, i'm not blind or stupid enough to not be able to acknowledge that they are way out of line for what they're supposed to be.

What they are supposed to be is actually debatable. Call it "creative license" on PGI's part.

[Rushmoar]

bad arcade kitty, on 12 July 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

i'm a bit scared that overabundance of ecm may lead to multiple cases of being duo ecm locked... and not everybody is so silly to let you from that umbrella

Well, this will be the case when new mechs drop in game with ECM. People want to pay with their new shiny mechs. I think MWO needs to get rid of the mulit lock of ecm. BAP or TAG should counter ECM no matter how many ECM units are in the area. If ECM can cloak a whole team BAP should be able to uncloak the whole team.

Bush Hopper, on 12 July 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

I will start.

1. Dislike

2. Reasons:
- too powerful (can hide a whole company, you can run in front of a fire line which is outside BAP and you even don't know it - you are dead, especially as a light, weight too low, hardcounter for a whole weapon system etc etc etc)
- Radar becomes obsolete
- better hitreg makes ECM even better because getting in free shots is now more importantz than ever
- which role does it have in the game? Hardcounter for the supposedly weak LRMs?

3. I would limit it to the mech carrying the ECM

1. Like

2. Reasons:
-There needs to be something that can hide information about your team. Be it how may mechs are in the area, where to shot weak spots on your mech, or give lrm mechs the advantage to hit you from cover.
-there is only one form of information denial while there are many counters like PPCs, NARC, BAP, TAG UAVs, and other ECM mechs. I think I am missing one more counter for the list here. some of these counters can be inproved i'm sure.
-Biggest reason is for your reason 3 on how would you change it if you could. If this was to happen, why would anyone run a mech with out ECM? Say you are in a lance with 3 ECM mechs and you don't have it. My guess is you will be the 1st to be targeted and have the biggest chance to be the 1st to die. I think this almost guarantees that everyone will want to use an ECM mech and will kill the variety on the battle field.I want to take a Thunderbolt and hope that someone else took an Atlas D-DC.

3. Improvments
-They could make 2 types of ECM, personal ECM for 1.5 tons and bubble ECM for 3 or 4 tons. I just think people will play selfishly and only equip the lighter ECM anyway.
-they could boost BAP so only the user could target any mech in the ECM bubble but not share the locks and info about the mech with the rest of the team.
-Biggest thing they could do is get rid of the ECM over lap bonus. If one ECM mech is countered, don't let another ECM cover it. let the second ECM mech cover the rest of their team that is in the ECM bubble.

bad arcade kitty, on 12 July 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

ecm is fine as it is now

if it gets too powerful they always can buff bap

Well they did buff BAP once, made the counter to ECM 360 meters in the Nov. 04th, 2014 patch I think. It made ECM useless because I believe more pilots now carried BAP because of the buff. Russ made a post that 65% of pilots use BAP before the buff and 65% use BAP after the buff. Post on BAP. PGI then dropped BAPs range (nerf if you will) to 200 meters I think, correct me if I am wrong here.I think they should buff BAP but range was not the way to go.

I will ask this question though. Do you believe 65% of all players use BAP? This can mean 2 things: 1) 65% of pilots have one mech with BAP on it or 2) all players have BAP on 65% of their mechs.

If they would introduce other types of information denial like smoke screens in an area or some kind of emp burst weapons that scramble your HUD for a few seconds. Then I think you can do big reworks to ECM.

Edited by Rushmoar, 12 July 2015 - 10:47 PM.

[Black Ivan]

1. Dislike
2. It is a fusion of several different seperate equipments from TT, which bring for 1.5 tons too many effects to the battlefield
3. Guardian ECM should only make looking on targets harder, not create a bubble of invisibility. Later they can add Angel ECM.

Edited by Black Ivan, 12 July 2015 - 10:50 PM.

[Gryphorim]

Aren't we meant to be getting a town hall devoted to ECM?

[Thunder Child]

Guys, back on topic please.

Like/Dislike, plus reasons and proposed changes, if any.

This is why we can never have nice things.

[Weeny Machine]

Pjwned, on 12 July 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

I wonder if the upcoming "huge balance pass" is going to actually address ECM,

When is that pass due? I totally missed this part of info

[mailin]

One issue that I find is that people still haven't figured out the order of priority for targets. All too often someone will launch a UAV and the lurms will start raining on the first target locked. Dudes, if there's an ECM lit up by a UAV target him!

Similarly, people will worry about a centurion rather than the DDC brawler that's right behind him. Prioritize and focus fire.

Again I say that ECM is fine. Also, BAP wasn't buffed to 360m, that was its original range when implemented by PGI. Later it was reduced to the current state.

As far as BAP being able to counter multiple ECMs, I disagree. Very rarely will there be enough ECM mechs to negate all the enemy BAPs. Remember, ANY mech can mount a BAP, but only very few can use ECM. And I still see many, many Kit Foxes without ECM. If it were truly OP as many claim, why wouldn't you use this in every mech that can take it? I've even seen a few DDC drivers who didn't use it to be able to get something else in.

[Weeny Machine]

Thanks for derailing the thread, Bad Arcade Kitty. And people wonder why devs stay (mostly) out...

Edited by Bush Hopper, 13 July 2015 - 02:56 AM.

[GeistHrafn]

Please keep this on topic folks! Carry on!

[Weeny Machine]

Rhazien, on 13 July 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

Please keep this on topic folks! Carry on!

Thanks for cleaning up!

[Chagatay]

Dislike
Too much stuff given for so little investment. Need to implement heavier systems with downsides, TT seems to have the right idea (big investments needed for "true" stealth). Also allows the weakest ECM (slightly lengthens lock on times, slows info gathering, and negates B/cAPs/NARC) to be carried by all mechs. The existing carriers can then be allowed to put the bigger systems in.