342 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 January 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

They get better damage per unit of duration, just like IS Pulse, but they achieve that through raw power and not through shorter beam time. I considered the standard laser range angle, but that's too samey with other Clan weapons and carries with it too great a risk of obsoleting weapons like the cLPL, cMPL, CSPL, and cERSL if we go that route. We'd have to get more creative than we already have with ghost heat to prevent that.

You know, quite a few role issues would be solved if you oriented pulse or beam lasers more towards DPS roles (not necessarily continuous beam lasers type DPS, but more like pulse from MW4). Honestly I still prefer that route because it gives more breathing room for both types of lasers to be more unique without risking overlap as much.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 January 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

You know, quite a few role issues would be solved if you oriented pulse or beam lasers more towards DPS roles (not necessarily continuous beam lasers type DPS, but more like pulse from MW4). Honestly I still prefer that route because it gives more breathing room for both types of lasers to be more unique without risking overlap as much.

Yeah, we've talked about the whole "laser MG" thing before. I'm building my tables based mostly one what I think PGI is likely to do (devs, pls look!), but I would love for that to become a thing in this game.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 15 January 2017 - 08:53 PM.

[SlyJJ]

Andi Nagasia, on 15 January 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

if 3068 im hoping for the Partial Wing equipment,
which Weighs 5% of the Mechs weight and takes up 6Crits(3eachST)
It behaves as if the Mech had 2JJ or 2More JJs,
Add to your ADR(+2JJ Height for 2Tons) 2 total)
Add to your VPR(+2JJ Height for 2Tons)10 total, yes i want to Fly)
Add to your NVA(+2JJ Height for 2.5Tons)7 total)
Add to your EBJ(+2JJ Height for 3.5Tons)2 total)
Add to your DWF(+2JJ Height for 5Tons)5 total, then my Flying DWF will Conquer the world)

Edit-

its described as losing its damage after a set Distance,
so ive given it lower Range but at a x3 Max Range to mimic Lore,

but Perhaps too low, ill Change it to 270m(Same as AC20) but keeping its x3MaxRange(810m)
the Fact that its larger 3Tons heavier and has a Charge should keep AC20s usefull,

Am I correct in guessing that the HG damage will be 3/3, 2/3, and 1/3 for damage and range, respectively?

Also, the IS UACs, are they still single shot or will they merely be identical to the multishot clan UACs?

Finally, since I believe it was 3058, how about some reflective armor options (kinda like ferro fibrous?) for the IS? With all these new energy weapons, we're going to need it. I feel it'd add a whole extra dimension to the game. I mean clanners got the best weapons period- its in the lore, but its annoying to have nothing to counter it. Reactive and reflective armors will add that wild card when we're having drops. Armor that drops your opponents damage by a third or so could prove incredibly useful... or incredibly useless depending on what the enemy builds are.

[Mcgral18]

Guile Votoms, on 14 January 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

I hope they're going to be something that's actually different and not just the same old stuff with different numbers.

I mean...that's what all weapons ever implemented into MWO will be


MRMs are SRMs with velocity differences, larger spread, likely Stream fire and 1 damage instead of 2
There's not much functional difference

All laser varieties are same things, different colours

All ACs are much the same. Find shell count, recycle, cooldown. Bam, new weapon

[Carl Vickers]

SlyJJ, on 15 January 2017 - 09:04 PM, said:

Am I correct in guessing that the HG damage will be 3/3, 2/3, and 1/3 for damage and range, respectively?

Also, the IS UACs, are they still single shot or will they merely be identical to the multishot clan UACs?

Finally, since I believe it was 3058, how about some reflective armor options (kinda like ferro fibrous?) for the IS? With all these new energy weapons, we're going to need it. I feel it'd add a whole extra dimension to the game. I mean clanners got the best weapons period- its in the lore, but its annoying to have nothing to counter it. Reactive and reflective armors will add that wild card when we're having drops. Armor that drops your opponents damage by a third or so could prove incredibly useful... or incredibly useless depending on what the enemy builds are.

Unfortunately all I see from adding different armor is someone equipping reflective and run into a ballistic mech and the forum will be full of salt.

[Y E O N N E]

Carl Vickers, on 15 January 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

Unfortunately all I see from adding different armor is someone equipping reflective and run into a ballistic mech and the forum will be full of salt.

Why would they QQ about it? It's still just as effective against ballistic weaponry as standard armor.

That said, if they add none of the specialized flavors, PGI would be wise to at least put Light Ferro Fibrous into the game. There are a crap-ton of builds that get enabled with LFE + LFF + ES, and even XL + LFF + ES.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 15 January 2017 - 09:32 PM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 January 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

Same issue as above. Nerfed the cool-down because otherwise I'd never take the standard SL. Honestly, either the isSL or isERSL is going to die in terms of people actually using it. There's really no way around it. If we bump the damage, we also start putting the SPL and SXPL out of a job because the 'Mechs that would be mostly using these have a significant premium on mass.

I see your point, it would be extremely difficult to find a good cooldown for the SL/ERSL without one being a clear winner over the other.

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The LL is competitive, it just depends on quirks. When it's stuck at stock range, it doesn't quite have the reach. When it has the quirks, it's actually very good. Three of them on a fast-moving IS medium is akin to a pair of cLPL on a fast-moving Clan medium, actually slightly better. If it wasn't pigeon-holed into operating mostly at brawl ranges by standard Medium Lasers (read: if it could be paired with isERML), it would be a much more potent option.It doesn't help that it's usually being run on STD 'Mechs that aren't quite fast enough to poke or isXL 'Mechs that will get popped due to the longer exposure than LPL. This won't be an issue with LFEs (I have already done the math, paragraph near the bottom about LFEs).With LFEs and isERML, IS 'Mechs can potentially go toe-to-toe with Clan vomit.

We can't really rely on quirk values now, since they'll be mostly gone with the skill tree

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Possibly. It is likely an artifact of the cERLL's score being impossible to bring down due to its tonnage and me trying to keep the isERLL up there to match it, but also being worried that too much range on the LL would make the isERLL irrelevant. I could probably increase the cool-down time (to 4.00s I think, 4.25s tops) on the isERLL, but it won't drop its score to the ~0.489 goal-post.

Odd

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When it's that hot, yes it should. It's a 4 damage weapon with the heat of an ERML. If I do what you suggest, I'm not gaining anything useful enough to make me want to take the SXPL instead of an isERSL. With my version, what I get is effectively a cut-down Medium Pulse, something that could be very useful for Lights that are dodging Gauss and PPCs. If I'm going for shorter-range poke, the SXPL is ideal. If I'm brawling, I'm going to want one of the other, colder, higher-DPS Smalls.

I don't know, I get you're trying to give it its own role, but XPLs are really just pulse lasers that have similar range profiles to standard lasers, in exchange for more heat. Like what you did with the other XPLs, I would like them to have their range between standard and ER lasers. There is a ridiculous amount of overlap in the sub-200m weapons though...

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Also, the cMPL can be boosted with a TC. I'm not sure IS will be getting TCs and, even if they do, I don't think they'll really have the tonnage to use them. Certainly not here, I'd sooner cram in another DHS if I have the slots. That's the rationale for superior range.

I highly doubt that is TGs won't come, considering they were introduced in 3062.

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At the range the cHSL hits zero damage, the cERSL is just reaching optimum. Seems like enough of a reason to take the cERSL to me. Damage-wise, it's got the same output as the cSPL during the shot, and more DPS for the whole cycle to compensate for loss of reach.

It could be yet another case of a weapon with an unmanageable score, but this time it's making it look artificially worse than it is...actually, similar goes for the cERSL. Alternative values I have in mind are a range of 120 meters, burn of 1 second, and a cool-down of 2.25 seconds. Needs play-testing, we're running into crunch with the Clan smalls here.

Wait? What max range are you using for the clan weapons? That might explain a few things...

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Range is low because my interpretation of Heavy Lasers is as a sort of inverted version of standard IS pulse lasers. They get better damage per unit of duration, just like IS Pulse, but they achieve that through raw power and not through shorter beam time. I considered the standard laser range angle, but that's too samey with other Clan weapons and carries with it too great a risk of obsoleting weapons like the cLPL, cMPL, CSPL, and cERSL if we go that route. We'd have to get more creative than we already have with ghost heat to prevent that.

I like your logic here, clans do need lasers optimized for close range, so I'm fine with giving them pulse laser range profiles.

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Your numbers put it in direct competition with the LXPL, and even the standard LPL. Do I take three LPL/LXPL for 21 tons and 33 damage over 0.85 seconds, or do I take two BLCs for 18 tons and 28 damage over 0.75? Personally, the BLC looks like the clear winner to me given its range and weight. Since yours is a very nippy turn-and-burn laser, the 5 extra points don't really mean much to me, and the weight savings let me offset the three points of heat with three more DHS.

It's tough trying to imagine a proper role for it, aside from something for low hardpoint mechs.

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I didn't miss them, I just don't see that they add much to the game. Personally, I would end up stripping them off of any 'Mech they were loaded onto and replacing them with any of the listed lasers above anyway. I want the pods that come with them, but I don't want them for their own sake.

I get your point, I'm just curious what stats you would get for them, I imagine the McPL would need quite the DPS to justify that range...

Edited by Gentleman Reaper, 15 January 2017 - 09:32 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 January 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

Why would they QQ about it? It's still just as effective against ballistic weaponry as standard armor.

That said, if they add none of the specialized flavors, PGI would be wise to at least put Light Ferro Fibrous into the game. There are a crap-ton of builds that get enabled with LFE + LFF + ES, and even XL + LFF + ES.

You have to ask why they would QQ about it, might I point out the lights are OP thread that came out today. Some equipment should be available for advanced players only, armor type being one of them.

[SlyJJ]

Carl Vickers, on 15 January 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

Unfortunately all I see from adding different armor is someone equipping reflective and run into a ballistic mech and the forum will be full of salt.

Like Yeonne had mentioned, it'll still be as effective as "normal" armor. What I think would fill the forum up with salt is people with laser vomit running into mechs with reflective armor.

Suddenly getting your damage dropped by a third would be a gamechanger, but it'd be impossible to predict, and could have potential to deter boating.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 January 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

Why would they QQ about it? It's still just as effective against ballistic weaponry as standard armor.

That said, if they add none of the specialized flavors, PGI would be wise to at least put Light Ferro Fibrous into the game. There are a crap-ton of builds that get enabled with LFE + LFF + ES, and even XL + LFF + ES.

All the IS FF types need a buff in general, Clan FF gets you Heavy FF-like weight savings for Light FF bulk. So perhaps give each FF extra armor matching their weight savings (6/12/24%). Heavy FF especially needs the help since its use prevents you from using Endo.

[Carl Vickers]

I possibly didnt see the part about functioning as normal armor and for that I apologize. I feel if you are going get reflective armor you are weak to ballisitcs, why should you get a big bonus to 1 damage type and still retain normal protection.

If you want to chance having good resistance to one type you should take a penalty to the other, keep in mind this is my own opinion and not lore based.

[Y E O N N E]

Gentleman Reaper, on 15 January 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

We can't really rely on quirk values now, since they'll be mostly gone with the skill tree

I know that, that wasn't my point. My point was that the quirks have shown us what it takes to make the LL competitive, not that we can trust them to stick around and buff the gun.

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Odd

Not that odd. My system is imperfect and I am fallible, like everybody else.

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I don't know, I get you're trying to give it its own role, but XPLs are really just pulse lasers that have similar range profiles to standard lasers, in exchange for more heat. Like what you did with the other XPLs, I would like them to have their range between standard and ER lasers. There is a ridiculous amount of overlap in the sub-200m weapons though...

I'd like if we could do "laser MGs" for pulse like Quicksilver was implying, since that would be a mechanically different weapon altogether, but I dont know that PGI would want

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I highly doubt that is TGs won't come, considering they were introduced in 3062.

On the other hand, the BCL was introduced even earlier and wasn't already in this game, the Raptor is a 3052 'Mech and also isn't in this game. It's a coin-toss whether IS TCs come in and I'm not sure I'd reduce the range even if they do.

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Wait? What max range are you using for the clan weapons? That might explain a few things...

I said in Edit 2 of the original post that all Clan lasers have a max-range multiplier of 1.75x (which is actually a buff from where they are now, mostly). IS lasers have a max-range multiplier of 2x, except for X-Pulse, which go out to the same 1.75x that Clan lasers do.

You can explain it away by saying the Clans use shorter wave-lengths that attenuate faster to get their damage; whatever makes you happy. Mechanically, it neatly equalizes all of the lasers without really stepping on anybody's toes. Clans generally get to keep superior damage and optimum ranges, but the IS get to land first hits. Once the Clan weapons come into range, they ramp up much faster. The advantage is only 120 meters in the most extreme case (ERLL).

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It's tough trying to imagine a proper role for it, aside from something for low hardpoint mechs.

It gets even tougher with all of the PPC varieties that show up.

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I get your point, I'm just curious what stats you would get for them, I imagine the McPL would need quite the DPS to justify that range...

That's part of why I didn't bother. The range is so short that the weapons are so niche that there's virtually no case where you would ever want to take them, even if I cranked the DPS. Too much risk. The isSL and isSPL are already bottom of the barrel; truth be told, I would probably only ever use the isERSL and isSXPL.

Carl Vickers, on 15 January 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

I possibly didnt see the part about functioning as normal armor and for that I apologize. I feel if you are going get reflective armor you are weak to ballisitcs, why should you get a big bonus to 1 damage type and still retain normal protection.

If you want to chance having good resistance to one type you should take a penalty to the other, keep in mind this is my own opinion and not lore based.

The reason it gets to be normally effective against non-energy is because you are already paying a 10-slot penalty for equipping it. Considering the presence of EndoSteel and/or STD/LFE engines and/or 3-slot DHS, I would consider that to be enough of a draw-back.

[Y E O N N E]

Here's an updated table with some tweaks, mostly to the isERLL, isBLC, and cHSL. Also added max range numbers, but they do not count toward the score.

[Carl Vickers]

I understand your point but disagree with it, dont base it on slots to equip, you want greater protection from lazors you get a weakness to ballistics.

[Y E O N N E]

Carl Vickers, on 15 January 2017 - 10:01 PM, said:

I understand your point but disagree with it, dont base it on slots to equip, you want greater protection from lazors you get a weakness to ballistics.

Even though equipping it means you are less offensively capable?

The trade-off for your new-found durability is that you have to stay engaged longer to do the same amount of work either because you have less guns or because the guns you have run hotter. In the end, it's basically a net improvement of zero for your combat capabilities.

[Carl Vickers]

I prefer the more high risk vs reward scenario myself, guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Lebarbu]

Heavy Machine Gun and Light Machine Gun for clan ?

http://www.sarna.net...avy_Machine_Gun
http://www.sarna.net...ght_Machine_Gun

[Hades Trooper]

so with all the new weapons and IS getting ER weapons, does this mean where going to now allow clan onmi mechs to swap the internal armour, heatsinks and other locked equipment or are we just seeing yet another boost for IS and nerf for clans.

Clan heatsinks need a health buff, so are we going to truly see things are equal are we going to continue to nuff IS while constantly nerfing the clans?

with the nerf to clan XL engines even further am i going to be allowed to start swapping them for standard engines or do i just have to keep getting reemed in the butt?

[visionGT4]

Hades Trooper, on 16 January 2017 - 12:44 AM, said:

so with all the new weapons and IS getting ER weapons, does this mean where going to now allow clan onmi mechs to swap the internal armour, heatsinks and other locked equipment or are we just seeing yet another boost for IS and nerf for clans.

Clan heatsinks need a health buff, so are we going to truly see things are equal are we going to continue to nuff IS while constantly nerfing the clans?

with the nerf to clan XL engines even further am i going to be allowed to start swapping them for standard engines or do i just have to keep getting reemed in the butt?

Its OK bruv, 3060 IS tech is still ton for ton - crit for crit inferior to clan tech. Your sh1t will continue to shoot further and hit harder, with the platform carring your sh1t moving faster and surviving longer whilst mounting more weapons than an equivalent weight IS mech.

When clan tech is your performance baseline, the introduction of 'advanced' IS tech changes nothing - clan tech *is* still significantly better than anything on the IS side and is still the case as of 3145.

Unless these other balance/normalization changes PGI speak of occur, the difficulty selector will stay the same..go clan for easy mode & IS for hard mode

[Karl Streiger]

Hades Trooper, on 16 January 2017 - 12:44 AM, said:

so with all the new weapons and IS getting ER weapons, does this mean where going to now allow clan onmi mechs to swap the internal armour, heatsinks and other locked equipment or are we just seeing yet another boost for IS and nerf for clans.

Clan heatsinks need a health buff, so are we going to truly see things are equal are we going to continue to nuff IS while constantly nerfing the clans?

with the nerf to clan XL engines even further am i going to be allowed to start swapping them for standard engines or do i just have to keep getting reemed in the butt?

Well - most of us must have accepted that the Omni Tech feature causes more issues then it is worth.
You might be able to balance stuff with inferior OmniMechs like Gargoyle or MadDog but with a ongoing time line you create a couple of issues.

Considering the OPNess of ClanTech.... well Loki II... I know we don't have one yet - but not because its not possible. A 65t ClanMech with 40.5t PodSpace. Could even run Dual Gauss und Dual ERPPC in MWO without any issues thanks to the heat system.

People can argue, harass, rage and cry.
But its a fact - cXL - isXL -> ClanOP (size, st death)
cGauss - isGauss -> ClanOP (size, weight)
cERPPC - isERPPC or isHPPC -> ClanOp (damage, size, weight)
cERLL -> isERLL - ClanOp (only because of weight and size)