32 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

Bilbo, on 13 July 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

All mine have at least that in the CT, ST generally carry a little less, but I don't use XL's so it's not a huge concern.

4 or 5 armor in the rear is a death sentence for me....i twist and move too much i guess.

[Ovion]

Solahma, on 13 July 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

I should also mention that you don't have to have an alpha that exceeds the total structure+armor. Any crits will immediately ad 15% more damage to internal structure. Depending on what you hit with and how many weapons make up that alpha, there is a very good chance to be doing 15% more damage with half of you weapons. So if you have a 40 point alpha, you can reasonably assume you would actually inflict 43 points of damage if you penetrated the armor. Also, that is only with 1x crits. There is also the chance of getting 2x or even 3x crits... you could see as much as a 58 point hit if each weapon got a 3x crit.

Assuming it even crits.
Haven't seen actually seen +15% damage as a number for crits before, from what I was aware, normally it does damage to components equal to the damage of the shot.
With 1x, 2x and 3x doing additional strikes to components.

But lets go with this bonus 15% damage.

If lasers, assuming 8ML for that 40pts, (80 0.5 damage ticks) lets assume balanced armour, then after the first 16pts of damage, which eats 32 ticks (24pts of damage).
You then have 48 ticks remaining.

Assuming straight averages (which isn't how it works, but hey)
You get:
12 1x (25%) +0.9 damage
6.7 2x (14%) +1 damage
1.4 3x (3%) +0.3 damage
Total +2.2 to 2.3 damage (with the floating .'s)

Yes, you could potentially do all triples at 34.8 total damage to internal structure (enough to beat the 32 internal), or nothing at all for a flat 24 damage, leaving 8HP.

Edited by Ovion, 13 July 2015 - 11:26 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

El Bandito, on 13 July 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Are you sure you managed to put all 40 damage in one spot? It is theoretically possible to core out an HBK with such damage, since the internal of its CT is 32, plus 8 or less rear armor. If you have Nvidia card, use Shadowplay to record such happenstances.

I actually run 10-12 on my rear.

[Solahma]

Ovion, on 13 July 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

Assuming it even crits.
Haven't seen actually seen +15% damage as a number for crits before, from what I was aware, normally it does damage to components equal to the damage of the shot.
With 1x, 2x and 3x doing additional strikes to components.

But lets go with this bonus 15% damage.

If lasers, assuming 8ML for that 40pts, (80 0.5 damage ticks) lets assume balanced armour, then after the first 16pts of damage, which eats 32 ticks (24pts of damage).
You then have 48 ticks remaining.

Assuming straight averages (which isn't how it works, but hey)
You get:
12 1x (25%) +0.9 damage
6.7 2x (14%) +1 damage
1.4 3x (3%) +0.3 damage
Total +2.2 to 2.3 damage (with the floating .'s)

Yes, you could potentially do all triples at 34.8 total damage to internal structure (enough to beat the 32 internal), or nothing at all for a flat 24 damage, leaving 8HP.

Based on the "Crits and You" article, I had assumed that beam weapons crit components in the same way the projectile did, however you are correct that each tick is evaluated for a crit chance per weapon. So Beam weapon crits are A LOT more complex and refined than projectiles.

Had to do a little digging to find the official statement:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2946973

Quote

Lasers check for crits every tick (but do that ticks worth of crit damage, so, a much smaller amount)

But yes, each crit will deal 15% additional damage to internal structure in addition to damage against equipment.

Edited by Solahma, 13 July 2015 - 12:04 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Ovion, on 13 July 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

Assuming it even crits.
Haven't seen actually seen +15% damage as a number for crits before, from what I was aware, normally it does damage to components equal to the damage of the shot.
With 1x, 2x and 3x doing additional strikes to components.

Aside from FLD weapons, which deal full crit damage as soon as the penetrate armour and damage IS (IE, AC10 or PPC will deal 10 crit damage when they hit 8 armour)

15% comes from a Dev post, I believe. Here's the Crits in action, where 0-1 crits deal less than 33IS+A, while 2-3 crits deals over 33IS+A

[MoonUnitBeta]

Yanlowen Cage, on 13 July 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Ok yah! HSR is better for large mechs. Fine with that.
But my real damage issue is that I avoid contact. creep up behind a hunchie and do a forty alpha full blast into it's rear ct. and BAM! no armor, but also no death. That is enuff damage to pierce the rear armor, destroy the internal structure and start chewing out the front armor.
I have tried this on several mechs and on two seperate hunchies. one was all at once and one was chain fire. still no joy.
O0k fix HSR, fine. But stop handcapping damage that hits the rear. Staple of lights is the hit and run. but when you can't kill the enemy quickly because of some sort of ghost armor that stops one or even two shot kills from the rear, you have handicapped a light and med just as bad as poor HSR handicaps heavies and assaults.

Hey... were you in a an Awesome with like a billion PPC's, and was this on Viridian Bog?
Because I feel like I was the hunchie you were shooting at. lol I overheated beside a tree and heard like 6 PPCs chain fire behind me. I came out and my rear CT armor was gone, and my CT was damaged but that was from overheating.

There was a firestarter on your team that was running around that I was trying to kill.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 13 July 2015 - 12:38 PM.

[Lugh]

MoonUnitBeta, on 13 July 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

Hey... were you in a an Awesome with like a billion PPC's, and was this on Viridian Bog?
Because I feel like I was the hunchie you were shooting at. lol I overheated beside a tree and heard like 6 PPCs chain fire behind me. I came out and my rear CT armor was gone, and my CT was damaged but that was from overheating.

There was a firestarter on your team that was running around that I was trying to kill.

It should be noted that PPCs don't do a damn thing under 90meters. So it's possible he passed within that range to nullify some of the hits.

[Felio]

Bush Hopper, on 13 July 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

You want to imply that nearly all mechs - medium and heavies seem to have like 15 back armour on all location? Yup, sounds very likely.

I used to put 18-20 on the back. Even on a medium I don't really go below 12. The stock Centurion champion has 20. The stock Hunchie champ has 10, which would have prevented the instakill.

[Mawai]

Bush Hopper, on 13 July 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

You want to imply that nearly all mechs - medium and heavies seem to have like 15 back armour on all location? Yup, sounds very likely.

I usually have a minimum of 12 to a maximum of about 18 on the rear of mediums and heavies. I do a lot of torso twisting as well as occasionally dodging in and out of opponents so the rear armor offers some insurance. I try to avoid direct stand up face to face shoot outs unless my team has a numerical advantage and we are focus firing down the opponent ... in which case I am quite happy for the opponent to stand still facing my team

[Ovion]

Yanlowen Cage, on 13 July 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Firestarter 8 med lasers
less than 90 meters
full blast to the rear ct. only armor that glowed and he didn't move for about a second after my fire ended. Didn't know I was there.
End of shot shows his armor rear gone, internal crit red ct, front armor red outlined with yellow. I assume that meant he was crit ct internal and yellowed front armor.

It could be the amount of ticks at one time?

Aside from avoiding ghost heat, you could try staggering sets of 4?

Or switch to SPL, far better.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Lugh, on 13 July 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

It should be noted that PPCs don't do a damn thing under 90meters. So it's possible he passed within that range to nullify some of the hits.

Ah yes. That could very well have been the case, it was indeed close quarters, and I don't think they would have been able to fire that many ER ppc's.

[Yanlowen Cage]

Ovion, on 13 July 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

It could be the amount of ticks at one time?

Aside from avoiding ghost heat, you could try staggering sets of 4?

Or switch to SPL, far better.

all 8 at once is about 52% heat. manageable. Plus I tend to run away after I put 40 damage in their back. They tend to get upset when you butt sex their rear armor. chain fire even less heat. small pulse? They do fire faster, but 8 meds do more damage at a longer range and with the range module small pulse don't even come near having the med range. Yeah alot more heat but hey, 40 run and done is pretty damn good to me.

BTW who said I had an issue with heat? No seriously, who?

Edited by Yanlowen Cage, 16 July 2015 - 07:31 PM.

[Ovion]

Yanlowen Cage, on 16 July 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

all 8 at once is about 52% heat. manageable. Plus I tend to run away after I put 40 damage in their back. They tend to get upset when you butt sex their rear armor. chain fire even less heat. small pulse? They do fire faster, but 8 meds do more damage at a longer range and with the range module small pulse don't even come near having the med range. Yeah alot more heat but hey, 40 run and done is pretty damn good to me.

BTW who said I had an issue with heat? No seriously, who?

No read it again.

To break it down, when you fire, each laser basically fires 10 'ticks', or spreading it out into 10 'shots' per trigger pull.

It's been known before that large clusters of projectiles (large numbers of SRMs (18+), large volleys of LBX fire or even LRM) can have hitreg issue.

You're launching 8x10 Ticks, or a volley of 80 'pulses' per trigger pull.
It's possible, even on target that the high volume of hits makes HSR do the same as large volleys of projectiles.

So by using 2 volleys of 4 ML, instead of 1x80 ticks, it's 2x40, which may be spread out enough to correctly register (if that is the problem), which has the added bonus of not triggering Ghost Heat.



As to Small Pulse Lasers - I favour Pulse heavily over regular lasers.
8SPL, should be able to do 3-4 volleys of 4SPL in the time it takes to do 1-2 with the ML.
(At least when I blaze past in my Locust I can comfortably do 3-4 of 3).

By the math, duration + cooldown +duration = 3.25s base for SPL, vs 4.8s base for ML, before being able to fire again.
So you can happily do double the shots, for all of 1s more time, and you're doing the equivalent of 64 damage in that 4S the ML needs to be able to fire again, and is almost ready to fire a third time by the time you've shot the MLs second.
Plus, SPL have no ghost heat. (And personally, I can't stand the burn time on MLs, even SLs feel somewhat... sluggish)

Obviously, ML have a significant advantage in range, but when you're going 150.2kph, you're fast enough to compensate for that range.
At the end of the day it does come down to preference though, so stick with what works for you.