460 replies to this topic

[Necromantion]

Prosperity Park, on 13 July 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

The Clan Gauss Rifle weighs 3 tons less than the IS version. What are the balancing factors used to compensate for this?

Does it have a slower charge-up time? No.
Does it have a slower recycle time? No.
Shorter range? Less damage? No. No.
Does it take up more slots? No, opposite, it takes up fewer slots.
Does it explode more easily? No; in fact Clanners get 0-tonnage CASE on every arm and torso section to boot.
Does it cause more internal damage when it explodes? No.


Does it do anything at all that balances the 3 fewer tons and 1 fewer slot? No.

When can we expect a change to this situation?

(This is not an IS player whining, this is a video gamer scratching his head in wonder)

Let me summarize

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

[Mawai]

Kain Demos, on 13 July 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

Never. Omnimechs have locked equipment and generally will have less pod space. If Clan stuff weighed the same as IS stuff it would be a massive nerf across the board.

At least until the introduction of the clan IIC battlemechs.

They use clan engines - only 2 crit slots/side torso and can't die to a single side torso loss.
They use clan heat sinks - again only 2 crit slots
They use clan weapons that generally mass less and use less crit slots.

Any concept of balancing clan vs IS due to fixed equipment and limited pod space justifying the reduced crit slots and mass of clan weapons goes out the window with the introduction of the clan IIC battlemechs that are fully configurable.

IIC mechs might sell like ice cream on a hot summer day ... but the tears from purchasers as the nerfs hit them 6 to 12 months after release will be remarkable ... though admittedly they will have had 6 to 12 months playing a set of OP mechs.

On the other hand, perhaps PGI plans to overquirk everything else ... including base clan mechs to match the power of the IIC mechs? Seems unlikely to me.

Will they apply a number of negative quirks to the IIC mechs? Gauss delay timer increase quirk 25%? Gauss weapon 10% weight increase for connecting a clan omni-pod based gauss rifle to a battle mech? Heat and burn time negative quirks like the SCR and TBR? Only time will tell.

Experience with PGI so far is that they will do nothing and IIC mechs will be the new king of the hill when released and retain that crown until after cbill purchase is available ... at which point they will be nerfed.

Anyway, to the OP, clan weapons are supposed to be more powerful than their IS counterparts. Battletech had a huge amount of power creep with the introduction of clans. In TT, this was balanced by having more or heavier IS mechs. This doesn't work with MWO and trying to create a matchmaker that did so would be very complicated without a battle value system (which PGI doesn't seem to want to develop). By now, PGI probably has sufficient data to come up with a rating for every mech and almost any possible loadout ... though it might take a bit of data mining to do it.

In addition, if clan mechs were significantly overpowered then almost everyone would migrate to them. Since you can only play one mech, people will usually choose the one that lets them do the best and keeps them in the game the longest.

Thus, on average, IS and clan mechs and weapons need to be more or less balanced. Which then leads to the conflicts between "lore" and "balance".

[Necromantion]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 05:55 AM, said:

I'll try to keep this in minding next time I am getting rectally reamed by a half dozen clan medium lasers at 750 meters......

I guess I'll ignore the part where ALL clan lasers have higher DPS than IS, too......

But lower damage per heat huh? And oh while youre talking about medium lasers at range how about that TBolt SS?

[Hit the Deck]

Mawai, on 14 July 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

...
IIC mechs might sell like ice cream on a hot summer day ... but the tears from purchasers as the nerfs hit them 6 to 12 months after release will be remarkable ... though admittedly they will have had 6 to 12 months playing a set of OP mechs.

On the other hand, perhaps PGI plans to overquirk everything else ... including base clan mechs to match the power of the IIC mechs? Seems unlikely to me.

Will they apply a number of negative quirks to the IIC mechs? Gauss delay timer increase quirk 25%? Gauss weapon 10% weight increase for connecting a clan omni-pod based gauss rifle to a battle mech? Heat and burn time negative quirks like the SCR and TBR? Only time will tell.

Experience with PGI so far is that they will do nothing and IIC mechs will be the new king of the hill when released and retain that crown until after cbill purchase is available ... at which point they will be nerfed.
....

IICs can only be overpowered when PGI releases ones with big engine cap and good hardpoints. I think there are already some on the upcoming IIC pack...

[Johnny Z]

Necromantion, on 14 July 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

Let me summarize

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

The man child is strong with this one, also strangley, one of the strongest arguements a Clan player has come up with for keeping easy mode, at least it cant be argued with or immediately dismissed for being false.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 July 2015 - 07:27 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I agree, the C-Gauss is identical to the IS Gauss in function, but all it's values are just better in every way. It is the one weapon PGI just chose to ignore and not give the Gauss it's own Clan style unique flavor for balance.

It doesn't bother me too bad because both weapons have such long range and even though the Clan's range is longer, it doesn't feel like the Clan's additional range is really that usable.

Still, it wouldn't be bad if they altered it in some way. Thing is, I thought about it, and I can't think of anything unique AND fair. I suppose it can just stay as is and I'm ok with it *shrug*.

[Sjorpha]

I think simply increasing the cooldown on clan gauss by +1 second would be a good tradeoff.

[Necromantion]

Johnny Z, on 14 July 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

The man child is strong with this one, also strangley, one of the strongest arguements a Clan player has come up with for keeping easy mode, at least it cant be argued with or immediately dismissed for being false.

How about the fact that Dual gauss builds for either faction on heavies EBJ or Cata/Jag both carry the same amount of ammo, OMG OP PLZ NERF.

Sjorpha, on 14 July 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

I think simply increasing the cooldown on clan gauss by +1 second would be a good tradeoff.

So the weapon with worst dps per tonnage becomes even worse? How about no?

[Dimento Graven]

Necromantion, on 14 July 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

...

So the weapon with worst dps per tonnage becomes even worse? How about no?

But, but, BUT, if all you clan pilots are SO GOOD as you keep telling yourselves, why would you even need the extra dps/ton?

SURELY you're all just scoring headshots every kill, every match...

[Necromantion]

Dimento Graven, on 14 July 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

But, but, BUT, if all you clan pilots are SO GOOD as you keep telling yourselves, why would you even need the extra dps/ton?

SURELY you're all just scoring headshots every kill, every match...

A lot of clan factions are a lot more organized than their IS counterparts.

Also with the amount of players that stand still in game youd be surprised.

Once again nothing you said changes the fact that the points I made were valid. o7

[Lily from animove]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

we are artificially on "even" footing. Relying on quirks as anything more than bandaids for the unfixable has always been, and will always be, sloppy and have too many areas it bites you in the but.

Again. Balance begins with the base tech.
Then the Weapons, then the chassis, and THEN you use quirks to fix what can't be balanced (hardpoints and hitboxes) as easily.

totally wrong. MWO is a shooter, traget size > Wepaon locations > weapons. Because the same wepaon turns out completely differently effective on different mechs. you can not balance the base tech without imbalancing this heavily on different mechs and their way how they cna create synergy effects with other wepaons.

Burktross, on 14 July 2015 - 06:36 AM, said:

SHD-5D (fedcom civil war tech)=== 1684bv
Stormcrow Prime === 2074bv

Now distribute that BV difference from 12 mechs and it adds up, leading to a disproportionate mech distribution

does this somehow include pilot skills? Does that SHD 5 has clanweapons included? because currently clanweapons in MWO are not better anymore than in TT, whcih means we have just different weapons, not plain out better ones.

[Burktross]

Lily from animove, on 14 July 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

totally wrong. MWO is a shooter, traget size > Wepaon locations > weapons. Because the same wepaon turns out completely differently effective on different mechs. you can not balance the base tech without imbalancing this heavily on different mechs and their way how they cna create synergy effects with other wepaons.



does this somehow include pilot skills? Does that SHD 5 has clanweapons included? because currently clanweapons in MWO are not better anymore than in TT, whcih means we have just different weapons, not plain out better ones.

No it doesn't include pilot skills, which are irrelevant; that's an elo discussion. No one suggested using BV currently, that's just my rebuttal to people saying "CLANTECH IS SUPPOSED TO BE OP"

[Jack Corban]

Prosperity Park, on 13 July 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

The Clan Gauss Rifle weighs 3 tons less than the IS version. What are the balancing factors used to compensate for this?

Does it have a slower charge-up time? No.
Does it have a slower recycle time? No.
Shorter range? Less damage? No. No.
Does it take up more slots? No, opposite, it takes up fewer slots.
Does it explode more easily? No; in fact Clanners get 0-tonnage CASE on every arm and torso section to boot.
Does it cause more internal damage when it explodes? No.


Does it do anything at all that balances the 3 fewer tons and 1 fewer slot? No.

When can we expect a change to this situation?

(This is not an IS player whining, this is a video gamer scratching his head in wonder)

It has the biggest drawbacks of them all. Its on a Clan mech.

[Mcgral18]

Jack Corban, on 14 July 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

It has the biggest drawbacks of them all. Its on a Clan mech.

Unless it's one of the few not gimped Clams.


So, obvious solution is not to outright gimp robots because TT, then do whatever should be done.

[Praehotec8]

I think that all the mechs (both battlemechs and omnimechs) should be completely unlocked, i.e. all structure upgrades, and engines. Omnimechs can stil swap their pods, while battlemechs obviously cannot. This gives omnimechs the advantages which they were designed to have while otherwise setting a base for balancing. If that is too much, then ONLY lock the omnimech engines.

Once that is complete, only then can weapons balance be looked at reasonably. Would the clan gauss need some type of balance nerf? Probably, but as it currently stands it really is not fair to gimp the weapon for most of the clan omnimechs. Aside from a few outliers (which are the ones causing all the problems), most clan omnis have the lower weight clan weapons completely offset by less efficient engine choices, and lack of endosteel.

Currently the system is not too bad, but if we are going to pick at each little discrepancy, then really everything needs to go back to basics. Balance the base game mechanics such as heat-scale, weapon system functions (Missiles, ECM etc - looking at you), and mech movement/speed modifiers. Then balance the chassis as a whole, and finally look to the weapon systems with judicious quirks for various mechs as needed.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lily from animove, on 14 July 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

totally wrong. MWO is a shooter, traget size > Wepaon locations > weapons. Because the same wepaon turns out completely differently effective on different mechs. you can not balance the base tech without imbalancing this heavily on different mechs and their way how they cna create synergy effects with other wepaons.



does this somehow include pilot skills? Does that SHD 5 has clanweapons included? because currently clanweapons in MWO are not better anymore than in TT, whcih means we have just different weapons, not plain out better ones.

thank god you aren't in charge of balancing anything.

[Mister Blastman]

Alright. If people here seriously want to nerf the Clan gauss rifle, then to do so, it would require completely un-locking Clan 'mechs in the mechlab so we can add/remove any component/module etc. that we want.

That means... unrestricted jump-jets, endo, ferro and engine sizes.

The way Clan gauss is right now, it barely squeezes into some 'mechs that otherwise wouldn't be able to fit it without the tonnage at clan values.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister Blastman, on 14 July 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

Alright. If people here seriously want to nerf the Clan gauss rifle, then to do so, it would require completely un-locking Clan 'mechs in the mechlab so we can add/remove any component/module etc. that we want.

That means... unrestricted jump-jets, endo, ferro and engine sizes.

The way Clan gauss is right now, it barely squeezes into some 'mechs that otherwise wouldn't be able to fit it without the tonnage at clan values.

cool, so be outright superior in every way.. makes sense.

[Kalimaster]

Clan Mech are intended to be more powerful than the IS. That is a fact. If you want to argue this point, call one of the original creators for Battletech up sometime.

[Kristov Kerensky]

El Bandito, on 13 July 2015 - 07:24 PM, said:

Your post is a prime example of an unimaginative, simple minded player.

One can make CERPPC/ERPPC to have similar effectiveness to their respective tonnage without making them exactly the same. PGI had already managed it with Clan ACs.





Not as many as the Steam horde who will be pissed about superior Clan side. They do not give a crap about the lore, they give a crap about balance between factions!

If PGI made Clan ACs balanced vs IS ACs, then they can sure as hell do the same to Clan Gauss and CERPPCs.

I would say YOUR post is the prime example of an unimaginative player, I'll leave out the personal insults, because I don't find my position weak, as you evidently seem to do.

CERPP were already balanced against the IS ERPPC, they do 10 PP and 2.5x2 splash instead of their 15 PP damage, remember? Or are you totally ignoring this fact because it doesn't fit your argument to use the facts?

CGauss are 3 tons lighter, 1 slot smaller, slightly longer range, same charge up, same cooldown.

Now, oddly many of you are saying that SUPERIOR TECHNOLOGY should be WEAKER then inferior technology. I'm not exactly sure HOW you justify that in your own heads, but when reading it, it really comes across as less than intelligent thinking. Yes, of course, naturally the superior technology should be the worse or AT MOST, not better option! Because, as we all know, the smartphones everyone uses today are so inferior or less useful than the feature phones they replaced less than 5 years ago, so it TOTALLY makes sense that technology that has had 200 years of nothing but improvements should be totally the SAME as technology that's seen 200 years of stagnation at best, because...come on, someone give me a logical, valid reason here, because so far, I'm NOT seeing any from any of you, only BALANCE, which isn't out of whack currently in the first place, so it's NOT a valid reason.

Bishop, PGI already made rather clear that quirks ARE their way of achieving parity between Clan and IS Tech, which is why quirks are applied per Mech chassis/variant and not a blanket thing for every Mech regardless of variant. The balance pass upcoming is nothing more than a total redo of the quirk system in place, that's it, it's all about quirks, NOT individual weapons or weapon systems or their Tech base. THIS is how PGI is balancing the Clan and IS against each other, by achieving parity via quirks. Clans have better Tech, it has some drawbacks, but it's not flat out OP compared to IS Tech, otherwise we'd have a clear majority of the playerbase in Clan Mechs only. We already know this isn't happening, more IS in CW than Clans, despite the OH SO HEAVILY REPEATED CLANS ARE OP bs that these forums are full of. If the Clans were so OP, CW would be almost totally Clan, it isn't, not even close, so....

We have top ranked comp teams running around in IS Mechs for tourneys where they can pick Clan or IS and they are winning constantly. We have some top ranked comp teams running around in Clan Mechs and they aren't doing as well. So, again, how exactly are the Clans so damned OP when the TOP COMP PLAYERS pick IS over Clan and win while facing both Tech types? Can you explain this to me please, because it sure as hell doesn't make sense to me that the Clan Tech is so OP when this is the REALITY ingame.

Right, you will once again point out the paper numbers and what they show and totally disregard the fact that ingame, those numbers do NOT play out, as size/location/placement of Mechs and hardpoints renders that math moot. This isn't TT, the numbers are NOT what makes weapons and Mechs good or bad, there's SO much more to it.

Bishop, as someone who has pointed that out yourself personally in the past, shame on you for totally ignoring that, you straight up know better.

As for the others who keep pressing this Clan OP agenda despite the reality ingame, you already know you are pushing your own personal agendas, game balance be damned, you've been doing it all along and refuse to ever look at what's happening ingame, only what YOU think matters, the rest of us are either Clanner crybabies who have to have our P2W toys or we're too stupid to do maths, that's the sum of your arguments to date. It's old, it's bs, been shown to you many many times but you still keep on beating that dead horse....