460 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 15 July 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

Given the definitions of the root words of the term, 'asymmetric parity' it seems to be an oxymoron.

Im gonna speculate that he meant the tech bases should be different but equal.

[CrushLibs]

My list shows the down sides to clan mechs and adding more downsides to the gauss is stupid.

DHS , Laser , guns etc all take up less crits and / or weight

So the NERFs to clan mechs in general makes up for the 3 tons less weight on the gauss.

[Dimento Graven]

WM Quicksilver, on 15 July 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

Im gonna speculate that he meant the tech bases should be different but equal.

If he meant that, then I understand.

Different but equal is what we currently don't have primarily because you can't consider weapons in a vacuum. We have to consider all things, engines, crits spaces, quirks, etc. etc.

Saying that because IS and Clan gauss do the same damage and fire at the same rates means that Clans and IS are completely equal is... Silly.

[Telmasa]

So nobody likes my idea from page 5 about Clan tech having less crit health (lighter/less structural integrity explaining the weight reduction) compared to IS tech?

[Johnny Z]

CrushLibs, on 15 July 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

My list shows the down sides to clan mechs and adding more downsides to the gauss is stupid.

DHS , Laser , guns etc all take up less crits and / or weight

So the NERFs to clan mechs in general makes up for the 3 tons less weight on the gauss.

There are no down sides to the 3 ton less, one space less Clan Gauss. 20 pages into this topic and that isnt clear yet? HAHA

There are no down sides to the Clan XL either. These topic will remain until there is some sort of fair play here. By all accounts these problems are being adressed as we chat about them.

2000 pages + saying Omni mechs are OP and finally there are claims fair play will return to Mechwarrior Online. (I just made that number up but I bet its close )

Edited by Johnny Z, 15 July 2015 - 03:52 PM.

[Yellonet]

Kalimaster, on 14 July 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Clan Mech are intended to be more powerful than the IS. That is a fact. If you want to argue this point, call one of the original creators for Battletech up sometime.

Apparently that is so. But as this is a game there must be balance (in some way) to make it fun.
The easiest way of doing it while keeping with the lore and keeping the clan mechs plain better would be to have matches where clan players are fewer, perhaps 8 vs 12.
This would be simple to understand for new players as well, little explaination would be required; fight for the side with better mechs, but have the numbers against you, or fight for the side with more but worse mechs.

[Yellonet]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

Clans have better Tech, it has some drawbacks, but it's not flat out OP compared to IS Tech, otherwise we'd have a clear majority of the playerbase in Clan Mechs only. We already know this isn't happening, more IS in CW than Clans, despite the OH SO HEAVILY REPEATED CLANS ARE OP bs that these forums are full of. If the Clans were so OP, CW would be almost totally Clan, it isn't, not even close, so....

If we look at the fact that many players say that clan mechs are OP, why is that?
If there really isn't any truth to it, are the people that complain all just bad players that get beaten by the better clan players?
If the mechs truly were evenly matched, wouldn't there be an equal amount of screaming of OP IS mechs?

And regarding your argument that if clan mechs were better, almost everyone would use them, I don't think that's true.
Many players, myself include will choose in-game assets based on preferences other than what is considered "best".
Also, for me personally, if something is touted as OP and clearly better and so on I'm deterred to use it as it would feel like cheating to me.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

We just got face smashed by a team of 12 Dragon-1Ns. The balance is what it is for right now until they redo the perk system.

No weapon should be touched until they look at the overall total balance of quirks, high mounts, etc.

[Sjorpha]

Blueduck, on 15 July 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

Dual Gauss EBJ is not top tier; laser blarg is. Compare the weapons systems under question directly before we start throwing in mechs like Tbolts, Dragons, Crows etc.

The discussion is whether clan gauss is broken vs IS. My position is simple that the IS Gauss is equivalent or better than the clan gauss on certain IS mechs when compared to your typical clan mech due to the quirks and high weapons mounts.

Dual gauss is not a top tier build, no, not on the EBJ and not on the Jager. But if you are to compare them the dual gauss EBJ is better than the dual gauss Jager. The fact that the meta isn't dual gauss on any heavy at all doesn't change that.

Your position that "IS gauss is better than clan on certain mechs when compared to your typical clan mech" is just wrong. The Jager is the best gauss IS heavy, and it's worse than the EBJ, the King Crab is the only dual gauss IS assault, and it is worse than the Dire wolf. For single gauss combined with lasers the clan mechs are flat out superior every time, you know clan gaussvom is the dominant comp meta right?

The IS simply has no advantages at all when it comes to gauss builds, none. The last one went away with the EBJ eclipsing the Jager.

[Rhent]

Prosperity Park, on 13 July 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

The Clan Gauss Rifle weighs 3 tons less than the IS version. What are the balancing factors used to compensate for this?

Does it have a slower charge-up time? No.
Does it have a slower recycle time? No.
Shorter range? Less damage? No. No.
Does it take up more slots? No, opposite, it takes up fewer slots.
Does it explode more easily? No; in fact Clanners get 0-tonnage CASE on every arm and torso section to boot.
Does it cause more internal damage when it explodes? No.


Does it do anything at all that balances the 3 fewer tons and 1 fewer slot? No.

When can we expect a change to this situation?

(This is not an IS player whining, this is a video gamer scratching his head in wonder)

Clans have got engine size locking and mandatory equipment that can't be switched out. I understand where you are coming from, however the current solution is fairer especially with "HOW" PGI is quirking out mechs.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Sjorpha, on 15 July 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

Dual gauss is not a top tier build, no, not on the EBJ and not on the Jager. But if you are to compare them the dual gauss EBJ is better than the dual gauss Jager. The fact that the meta isn't dual gauss on any heavy at all doesn't change that.

Your position that "IS gauss is better than clan on certain mechs when compared to your typical clan mech" is just wrong. The Jager is the best gauss IS heavy, and it's worse than the EBJ, the King Crab is the only dual gauss IS assault, and it is worse than the Dire wolf. For single gauss combined with lasers the clan mechs are flat out superior every time, you know clan gaussvom is the dominant comp meta right?

The IS simply has no advantages at all when it comes to gauss builds, none. The last one went away with the EBJ eclipsing the Jager.

Um no. You want to know how many dual gauss Cauldron's I have seen? None, except for the one I took out. The reason being he has only one high mounted gauss. The cauldron born is at top tier mech but not as a guass sniper. Hellbringer does a much better job of that due to his shape and ecm.

The Jaegar has high mounts and perks. He is a better gauss sniper than the cauldron born.

Again, this does not mean that the Jaegar is OP but rather he is the best straight up gauss sniper in the game for the ton value.

You cannot rebalance the gausses while also changing the perks.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Blueduck, on 15 July 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

The cauldron born is at top tier mech but not as a guass sniper. Hellbringer does a much better job of that due to his shape and ecm.

Except the Hellbringer can't do dual Gauss. So either you are thinking that the Ebon Jag doesn't do Gauss Vomit as good as the Hellbringer (which it does), or you are thinking that someone is running dual Gauss on it (which it doesn't on any sane level).

[CrushLibs]

Yegger can do high mounted quad UAC-5s and dual gauss too

Its the best mech for guns bar none in its class

[Ultimax]

Blueduck, on 15 July 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

Um no. You want to know how many dual gauss Cauldron's I have seen? None, except for the one I took out. The reason being..

No, that's not the reason being.


The reason is because for all of the endless clan-hard crying we are forced to listen to about not being able to put dual gauss on all of their mechs - the reality is that Dual Gauss isn't as strong as Gauss + Clan Lasers.


That's it, there's no mystery.


It's better to have the potential for a massive alpha, utilize your heat bar & add "endurance" to your build (energy vs. ammo) than it is to just Dual Gauss.


The best mech in the game for Dual Gauss is the Dire Wolf, because it carries an entire Laser Vomit Timber Wolf in addition to it's Dual Gauss.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Ultimatum X, on 15 July 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

No, that's not the reason being.


The reason is because for all of the endless clan-hard crying we are forced to listen to about not being able to put dual gauss on all of their mechs - the reality is that Dual Gauss isn't as strong as Gauss + Clan Lasers.


That's it, there's no mystery.


It's better to have the potential for a massive alpha, utilize your heat bar & add "endurance" to your build (energy vs. ammo) than it is to just Dual Gauss.


The best mech in the game for Dual Gauss is the Dire Wolf, because it carries an entire Laser Vomit Timber Wolf in addition to it's Dual Gauss.

Yes except it is a 100 tons and its weapons are low mounted with a CT that gets punched out like nobodies business. The dire is niche mech that has to have a team built around him. Awesome mech with awesome niche uses, best gauss mech in the game for the tons; nope.

In regards to the your gauss laser argument the hellbringer is the best mech for that on the hot maps where he gets the best use. The Gauss Jaegar and Dragon-1N are more than a match for him despite his reduced clan gauss.

Take off your faction blinders. This game is balanced around mechs and quirks at the moment, you can't just nerf a weapon system unilaterally.

Sjorpha, on 15 July 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

Dual gauss is not a top tier build, no, not on the EBJ and not on the Jager. But if you are to compare them the dual gauss EBJ is better than the dual gauss Jager. The fact that the meta isn't dual gauss on any heavy at all doesn't change that.

Your position that "IS gauss is better than clan on certain mechs when compared to your typical clan mech" is just wrong. The Jager is the best gauss IS heavy, and it's worse than the EBJ, the King Crab is the only dual gauss IS assault, and it is worse than the Dire wolf. For single gauss combined with lasers the clan mechs are flat out superior every time, you know clan gaussvom is the dominant comp meta right?

The IS simply has no advantages at all when it comes to gauss builds, none. The last one went away with the EBJ eclipsing the Jager.

I never once said IS gauss is better. I am simply saying that IS gauss + perks + high mounts is a fair fight against the clan weight advantage of the gauss.

You want to redo the weapon system; fine. Also redo the quirks to keep the parity.

Edited by Blueduck, 15 July 2015 - 07:36 PM.

[Ultimax]

Blueduck, on 15 July 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

Yes except it is a 100 tons and its weapons are low mounted with a CT that gets punched out like nobodies business.

S head, S Side Torsos = Lot's of cockpit and higher energy hardpoints.




CT only gets "punched out like nobodies business" if you are bad at piloting the Dire Wolf. Most people who feel that way tend to be players who only run the UAC builds and stare at all the targets wondering why their CT is evaporating.

Blueduck, on 15 July 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

The dire is niche mech that has to have a team built around him. Awesome mech with awesome niche uses, best gauss mech in the game for the tons; nope.

It requires a higher skill level to be effective, but the ceiling on rewards is as high as it gets in the game.


If you need the team to be built around you, chances are you need more experience piloting a Dire Wolf.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 15 July 2015 - 07:44 PM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

"S head, S Side Torsos = Lot's of cockpit and higher energy hardpoints."

I thought we were talking about high mounted ballistics as that is the real point in question. The dire does have somewhat higher ballistics in the left and right torsos but most people don't use them their as they tend to go critical way before the arms and explode.

"CT only gets "punched out like nobodies business" if you are bad at piloting the Dire Wolf. Most people who feel that way tend to be players who only run the UAC builds and stare at all the targets wondering why their CT is evaporating."

My unit rolls 10 direwolf pushes. They are awesome but niche and heavily map dependent. On boreal as an example simply don't do it as you will be centered cored due to not being able to trade with the Jaegars and Stalker 4Ns due to the high mounted weapons.

"It requires a higher skill level to be effective, but the ceiling on rewards is as high as it gets in the game.


If you need the team to be built around you, chances are you need more experience piloting a Dire Wolf"

Yes but the discussion again centers around high mounts and quirks vs clan ton efficiency. You don't need to have a team built around you to be effective in a gauss Jaegar or Hellbringer. Hence why it is best to compare these two directly together as they are roughly equivalent. Gauss Jaegar obviously doesn't provide ECM but does very very well on the hot maps; a bit better than the Hellbringer in my view. Gauss Hellbringer is very nice for in his role as ecm support sniper. You can't nerf the hellbringer without first considering his closest peer in terms of overall net balance.

Edited by Blueduck, 15 July 2015 - 08:06 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Blueduck, on 15 July 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

My unit rolls 10 direwolf pushes.

That's your problem, I really hate to use that as part of the argument, but your unit is bad. In this particular case, the problem isn't the mech, it's the pilot. Using CW as an example is also bad, because CW is a flawed game mode.

Blueduck, on 15 July 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

You can't nerf the hellbringer without first considering his closest peer in terms of overall net balance.

You mean the Ebon Jag and Timber Wolf? Those are its closest peers, not the Gauss Jager.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 15 July 2015 - 08:13 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

CrushLibs, on 15 July 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

Yegger can do high mounted quad UAC-5s and dual gauss too

Its the best mech for guns bar none in its class

EXCEPT if you decide to go for durability as opposed to speed, you have to load a standard engine, in which case it's an EXTREMELY slow heavy, ESPECIALLY compared with similar weighted Clan heavies.

If you're willing to sacrifice durability, and get some speed, I'm fairly certain that it's still slower than the equivalently weighted Clan 'mech by a lot, but of course as mentioned before the moment one ST is crit'd open, it's a 90% high percentage (corrected, inadvertently put the gauss rifle chance of blowing up, instead of the IS XL chance of blowing up, which of course, depends on how you built your Jaeger) chance your game is over.

I think the Cataphract is better for AC's, myself, but it's one of those 'Do you prefer chocolate, or do you prefer sherbet?' Kind of things.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 15 July 2015 - 08:23 PM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

"That's your problem, I really hate to use that as part of the argument, but your unit is bad. In this particular case, the problem isn't the mech, it's the pilot. Using CW as an example is also bad, because CW is a flawed game mode."

Except we've rolled Phoenix Legion, HHOD, and SROT with it. xD

Where did I say it didn't work?

In regards to my unit, we have 500+ players in it. Some are brand new, some are good, and some are at a level you will never get near. Hate you use it as an example but given the examples you've given and your lack of understanding of the game I'd say you're actually pretty bad.

"You mean the Ebon Jag and Timber Wolf? Those are its closest peers, not the Gauss Jager."

Ug, read my previous argument on gauss cauldron born and why the hellbringer is a better comparison.

Also, some of us like CW so before you rule out using that as a balance consideration, consider that my unit plays it almost exclusively as a team and we love it. Nerfing the clan gauss would make the mass Jaegar/dragon pushes on the hot maps even more impossible to deal with.

Edited by Blueduck, 15 July 2015 - 08:20 PM.