122 replies to this topic

[Adiuvo]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 July 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

Was your Mech hit by heavy enemy fire while you were moving? Random chance to be knocked off balance depending on how good a sense of balance you have. Did a bead of sweat get in your eye messing your vision at the moment you thought you had the shot locked? Was the ammo loaded in your Magazine actually linked together all the way through? The lowest bidder often gets the job and I have seen some funky crap in closed boxes.

Random stuff happens. All the time every day.

House of Skill was something I heard at a Convention at U of M back in my FanPro Commando days. So your friends were not the first to use that saying.

I think the crux of the issue is having a balance of fun vs. reality. Honestly I doubt that something like sweat getting in your eye can ever be a fun mechanic, or that it can ever enhance gameplay in a good way, but something like knockdowns possibly can be. I haven't seen a good implementation of it yet, but one probably exists. Point is that taking away player agency is generally bad design. Some people like that kinda thing, but even the most popular simulators like Arma don't have purposefully annoying mechanics at the expense of gameplay. They're just complicated, and allow you to simulate most interactive portions of whatever process they're simulating. Truly random events, like sweat going in your eye, are ignored.

MWO already is a niche title, due to the subject matter and the qualities of the IP. It doesn't need to be made more niche by putting in uber simulator functions that will likely do nothing but annoy people.

About house of skill, that I don't doubt. I also don't doubt that the term has been used somewhere sometime before. I do however doubt that Bishop doesn't specifically have someone in mind when he randomly uses the phrase 'church of skill' instead of something like 'comps' or 'tryhards' like he normally does. He's making strawman arguments and since they're being made about a group I'm a part of, I find it a bit annoying.

[Joseph Mallan]

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

I think the crux of the issue is having a balance of fun vs. reality. Honestly I doubt that something like sweat getting in your eye can ever be a fun mechanic, or that it can ever enhance gameplay in a good way, but something like knockdowns possibly can be. I haven't seen a good implementation of it yet, but one probably exists. Point is that taking away player agency is generally bad design. Some people like that kinda thing, but even the most popular simulators like Arma don't have purposefully annoying mechanics at the expense of gameplay. They're just complicated, and allow you to simulate most interactive portions of whatever process they're simulating. Truly random events, like sweat going in your eye, are ignored.

MWO already is a niche title, due to the subject matter and the qualities of the IP. It doesn't need to be made more niche by putting in uber simulator functions that will likely do nothing but annoy people.

About house of skill, that I don't doubt. I also don't doubt that the term has been used somewhere sometime before. I do however doubt that Bishop doesn't specifically have someone in mind when he randomly uses the phrase 'church of skill' instead of something like 'comps' or 'tryhards' like he normally does. He's making strawman arguments and since they're being made about a group I'm a part of, I find it a bit annoying.

Ok in a knockdown it is possible for the pilot to take damage and or be stunned from getting slammed around in the seat. Ans whether or not its fun, It happens and removing all randomness is just... wrong. You try to jump across a precipice you can make it... maybe. But opps you stumble, and don't make it. It can happen... But you and other think it should NEVER happen... BS. There should be a chance, Some of my Best stories are about some of the critical fails I have had in games. They are just as amusing as the Critical successes!

[Throat Punch]

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

Church of Skill was something that Peefsmash and I think Soy made up as a joke around 2013, and that whole thought process progressed into House of Lords. Heimdelight then coopted the name to make the church of skill teamspeak, and today you are certainly not using it to refer to a specific of segment of players that you don't like

Really, your friends created "church of skill"...well hell, i didn't realize your friends were one of my Drill's at basic training back in '94 who told us "Welcome to the church of skill where you pray at the altar of talent" when sending us out to the night fire rifle range! Small world!!! Did you also create "hooah!" and "screwed up like a soup sandwich"?

[Adiuvo]

Mors Draco, on 14 July 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Really, your friends created "church of skill"...well hell, i didn't realize your friends were one of my Drill's at basic training back in '94 who told us "Welcome to the church of skill where you pray at the altar of talent" when sending us out to the night fire rifle range! Small world!!! Did you also create "hooah!" and "screwed up like a soup sandwich"?

I don't think your DI created a teamspeak server, nor have they likely played MWO.

Joseph Mallan, on 14 July 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

Ok in a knockdown it is possible for the pilot to take damage and or be stunned from getting slammed around in the seat. Ans whether or not its fun, It happens and removing all randomness is just... wrong. You try to jump across a precipice you can make it... maybe. But opps you stumble, and don't make it. It can happen... But you and other think it should NEVER happen... BS. There should be a chance, Some of my Best stories are about some of the critical fails I have had in games. They are just as amusing as the Critical successes!

Not sure many would agree with you man. Removing randomness for the sake of fun gameplay is very common and in basically every game. Super realism games are always incredibly niche, and so are semi sim games. The most 'realism' people like seems to be something along the lines of Battlefield, with a game like Arma in the distance.

Edited by Adiuvo, 14 July 2015 - 12:39 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

I don't think your DI created a teamspeak server, nor have they likely played MWO.


Not sure many would agree with you man. Removing randomness for the sake of fun gameplay is very common and in basically every game. Super realism games are always incredibly niche, and so are semi sim games. The most 'realism' people like seems to be something along the lines of Battlefield, with a game like Arma in the distance.

oh, so because you used an existing phrase on a teamspeak, (which as you noted yourself, I have never visited.....nor known about, to be fair) it now is exclusionary to you and yours. Got it.

Mors Draco, on 14 July 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Really, your friends created "church of skill"...well hell, i didn't realize your friends were one of my Drill's at basic training back in '94 who told us "Welcome to the church of skill where you pray at the altar of talent" when sending us out to the night fire rifle range! Small world!!! Did you also create "hooah!" and "screwed up like a soup sandwich"?

Don't forget SNAFU and FUBAR. I'm sure those belong to our 1337 Overlords, too

[Adiuvo]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

oh, so because you used an existing phrase on a teamspeak, (which as you noted yourself, I have never visited.....nor known about, to be fair) it now is exclusionary to you and yours. Got it.

Please quote where I said/implied that.

My entire point was that you were referring to a specific group of players that you knowingly dislike and attributing things to them that were never said.

Either way, you're just making a strawman argument. You don't have enough awareness of the playerbase that you can make conclusions on how a large portion thinks. Nobody does.

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

Please quote where I said/implied that.

My entire point was that you were referring to a specific group of players that you knowingly dislike and attributing things to them that were never said.

Either way, you're just making a strawman argument. You don't have enough awareness of the playerbase that you can make conclusions on how a large portion thinks. Nobody does.

No, your point is you assumed something, were wrong, then have strutted the "we are comp, so it must be about us" party line, ever since. So please, do us both a favor and put me on ignore, so I don't stress your delicate Wa.

Believe it or not, while I find most of your ilk to be colossal bores, in how they have "fun", I could care less about most of them either way. About the only ones I have active dislike of ar PEEF and Villz, and well, Villz seems to view you the same way I view him and his ilk. So what ever.

Your assumption that I actively dislike people for being "comp" is well, just more of you thinking it's always about you. Do I dislike a fractional subset representing 1% of the playerbase assuming they are the only ones who understand what a game needs? Yup. Not the same as disliking them, as people.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 July 2015 - 01:12 PM.

[Adiuvo]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

No, your point is you assumed something, were wrong, then have strutted the "we are comp, so it must be about us" party line, ever since. So please, do us both a favor and put me on ignore, so I don't stress your delicate Wa.

Believe it or not, while I find most of your ilk to be colossal bores, in how they have "fun", I could care less about most of them either way. About the only ones I have active dislike of ar PEEF and Villz, and well, Villz seems to view you the same way I view him and his ilk. So what ever.

Your assumption that I actively dislike people for being "comp" is well, just more of you thinking it's always about you. Do I dislike a fractional subset representing 1% of the playerbase assuming they are the only ones who understand what a game needs? Yup. Not the same as disliking them, as people.

Please quote where I said/implied that.

I've never been talking as a 'comp player'. I've been talking as part of the 'Chuch of Skill' group that you supposedly aren't talking about.

My conclusions were drawn based on your hyperbolic or flat out untrue conclusions of competitive players. People give 1453R **** for being melodramatic, but at least he doesn't lie.

Edited by Adiuvo, 14 July 2015 - 01:41 PM.

[Ascaloth]

As a start, would be nice if we could select the pilot gender, jumpsuit color (maybe as a MC item like the cockpit ones) and when the 'mech overheat or gets hit in the head the pilot scream...just for immersion!

[Escef]

Ascaloth, on 14 July 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

As a start, would be nice if we could select the pilot gender, jumpsuit color (maybe as a MC item like the cockpit ones) and when the 'mech overheat or gets hit in the head the pilot scream...just for immersion!

Or you could scream yourself... Y'know, for immersion?

Holy s***, do you pay someone to f*** your wife, too?

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Please quote where I said/implied that.

I've never been talking as a 'comp player'. I've been talking as part of the 'Chuch of Skill' group that you supposedly aren't talking about.

My conclusions were drawn based on your hyperbolic or flat out untrue conclusions of competitive players. People give 1453R **** for being melodramatic, but at least he doesn't lie.

Lol. Whatever. Still waiting to see my "lie".

Believe it or not, sparky? If I was talking about your little precious princess club? I wouldn't deny it or hide it, because I really could care less what you , or they, think. So, please continue to insist it's all about you, and yours, and such, but the only person lying, appears to be you, to yourself.

[Ascaloth]

Escef, on 14 July 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

Or you could scream yourself... Y'know, for immersion?

Holy s***, do you pay someone to f*** your wife, too?

Maybe the gauss round that hit the mech head could become real and come through the monitor and hit me in the face?

Dude this is a simulator, if the pilot takes damage i want to hear it screaming to remember there is a pilot inside the machine.

[Damien Tokala]

do you see those suits they wear? those are a second layer of life support. cooling/thermal suits. so your heat stroke idea is ********.

falling is also ********, as the pilots are strapped in via iron cage brace. as for headshot, just look up the caliber of an MG round, and tell me you wouldn't be dead from just one of those.

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Please quote where I said/implied that.
've been talking as part of the 'Chuch of Skill' group that you supposedly aren't talking about.

Oh forgot your precious quote, but I'll be lazy and just use your own. Because of course, I could only be talking about you and yours.

Again, get over yourself.

If I wanted to belittle your precious clubhouse, I'd probably have used a term like Crutch of "Skill". Just as an FYI.

[Johnny Z]

Ascaloth, on 14 July 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

Maybe the gauss round that hit the mech head could become real and come through the monitor and hit me in the face?

Dude this is a simulator, if the pilot takes damage i want to hear it screaming to remember there is a pilot inside the machine.

Heavy breathing after running, wiping visor that gets covered in rain, these are all done in excellent sims, even some of the best(although limited in scope and not to interesting) sims currently in the works.

These kinds of things used to some degree would improve immersion and even improve the e-sport factor. I am not an e sport fan and I hope it is only in this game on Solaris not anywhere else, although on Solaris would be ultra cool. Just saying.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 July 2015 - 01:52 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Damien Tokala, on 14 July 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

do you see those suits they wear? those are a second layer of life support. cooling/thermal suits. so your heat stroke idea is ********.

falling is also ********, as the pilots are strapped in via iron cage brace. as for headshot, just look up the caliber of an MG round, and tell me you wouldn't be dead from just one of those.

cooling suits only handle temps so high. Particularly when you force the mech into shutdown..and the computers operating the coolant in the suit overheat or shutdown with. Harnesses and braces are not perfect (and many lore examples of a person splitting their skull in the cockpit from a fall, etc, exist in the novels)

Mind you not saying these happen every time, but before you act dismissive, they are possibilities.

[Johnny Z]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

cooling suits only handle temps so high. Particularly when you force the mech into shutdown..and the computers operating the coolant in the suit overheat or shutdown with. Harnesses and braces are not perfect (and many lore examples of a person splitting their skull in the cockpit from a fall, etc, exist in the novels)

Mind you not saying these happen every time, but before you act dismissive, they are possibilities.

Yep flickering or stuttering UI is a must at some point. Maybe just the cockpit monitors, what ever.

[Ascaloth]

Johnny Z, on 14 July 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

Heavy breathing after running, wiping visor that gets covered in rain, these are all done in excellent sims, even some of the best(although limited in scope and not to interesting) sims currently in the works.

These kinds of things used to some degree would improve immersion and even improve the e-sport factor. I am not an e sport fan and I hope it is only in this game on Solaris not anywhere else, although on Solaris would be ultra cool. Just saying.

Good point. Maybe some work on the neurohelmet could give us this immersion.

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

cooling suits only handle temps so high. Particularly when you force the mech into shutdown..and the computers operating the coolant in the suit overheat or shutdown with. Harnesses and braces are not perfect (and many lore examples of a person splitting their skull in the cockpit from a fall, etc, exist in the novels)

Mind you not saying these happen every time, but before you act dismissive, they are possibilities.

A critical hit to the Life Support system and no colling suit in the universe can save the pilot

[Bishop Steiner]

Johnny Z, on 14 July 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Yep flickering or stuttering UI is a must at some point. Maybe just the cockpit monitors, what ever.

used to have flickering and fading crosshairs when you consistently ran the heatscale high. You could also cook your ammo off at about 80% on the scale if you kept riding it, back during CB, summer of 2013. I do miss that, and the convergence lag that used to exist, also.

[Ascaloth]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

used to have flickering and fading crosshairs when you consistently ran the heatscale high. You could also cook your ammo off at about 80% on the scale if you kept riding it, back during CB, summer of 2013. I do miss that, and the convergence lag that used to exist, also.

"Crosshair fading? No twitch shooting? RUN TO THE HILLS (of CoD)!"
-Crutch of Skill junkie