945 replies to this topic

[RedDevil]

Flutterguy, on 15 July 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

You realize of course that LRM boats don't magically see through walls. Something has to be used as a spotter and aside from NARCs those spotters can be destroyed. Moreover, unless you are woefully out of position, you can just break LOS and take cover.

Everyone is aware of that. Spotting is the easiest thing to do in this game. You don't even have to be looking directly at the enemy to spot it. Just have it somewhere in your front ark with LoS, and all of a sudden lots of red boxes appear. It happens by accident it's so simple to do.

EDIT: and Missile boats can magically see through walls with a UAV, but I guess that doesn't count?

Edited by RedDevil, 15 July 2015 - 06:31 PM.

[Kodyn]

As long as they nerf LRMs in some way, it seems like this could be a positive change. I'm in no way saying LRMs are overpowered at all, but this would in fact make them once again very viable, perhaps way too viable.

If it's a balanced change, where LRMs can no longer indirect fire without NARC/TAG, it makes sense, but to do one without the other, it will very obviously create a Lurmageddon, anyone not seeing that is completely fooling themselves.

A change to only ECM and not LRMs or even AMS just basically turns LRMs into the go-to weapon that everyone will want to use, since there won't be a counter to them aside from always remaining in cover, which simply isn't possible at all times on all maps, and will make the gameplay pretty damn boring.

It's already hard enough to get people to move or be aggressive without LRMs being too prevalent at the moment, with this one-sided change, you'll be hard-pressed to see any gameplay other than "Let's sit still til they run out of LRMs."

I like LRMs as a balanced part of the game, and I'd like to not see them be either useless or over-powered, so maybe I'm alone here, but I don't see how you can change ECM and leave their functionality as-is.

[RedDevil]

The range nerf of ECM is fine. Making ECM not block locks without changing how LRMs work isn't fine.

Edited by RedDevil, 15 July 2015 - 06:34 PM.

[Flutterguy]

RedDevil, on 15 July 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

Everyone is aware of that. Spotting is the easiest thing to do in this game. You don't even have to be looking directly at the enemy to spot it. Just have it somewhere in your front ark with LoS, and all of a sudden lots of red boxes appear. It happens by accident it's so simple to do.

EDIT: and Missile boats can magically see through walls with a UAV, but I guess that doesn't count?

Nope, doesn't count because you can destroy the UAV.

[GoodTry]

Void Angel, on 15 July 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

Wrong. Since a reduced range on ECM makes the ECM carrier stay closer to the 'mechs it's shielding, and vice versa, the carrier is effectively forced closer to the enemy. This means that a nerf to ECM is indeed a buff to its primary counter-system, since enemy 'mechs will not have to venture as close to enemies in order to counter the bubble.

Take a Raven and his lance as an example to see what I mean: The Raven currently can be as far as 180m away from the Zeus and Hunchback that are engaging our heroic Beagle Prober. After the change, he has to be within 90m - meaning that Beagle Boy can now counter from 90m closer to the closest possible lancemate. This is inarguably to the Beagle's advantage, and that's why reducing ECM range is effectively a buff to the Beagle Active Probe.

If you nerf any system like ECM, its counter-systems grow relatively stronger - and if those systems are already in balance with each other, the counter-system needs nerfed too.

No, you are wrong. Think about a 1v1 example. If I have a raven with BAP and I'm trying to target a raven with ECM, right now, I just have to get within 180 meters. Then I can target them. With the nerf they just announced, I will now have to get within 90 meters - basically on top of them - to counter them. It is a huge nerf to BAP against ECM.

Lets say I'm in a streakcrow with 6x SSRM6. Right now, if I can manage to lure that raven within 180m, I can target it. With the BAP nerf, I'll have to get within 90m. Good luck getting within 90m when your target goes 50+% faster than you.

The same works with a 1v12 example. I'm sneaking up on a giant death ball of 12 mechs covered by 1 ECM. Before, I could get within 180 meters and counter. Now, I will have to be right on top of them.

The size of the ECM bubble makes just makes no difference to the BAP user. The 180 meter BAP range should not measured against the ECM bubble, it should be measured against the actual range of ECM target blocking, which is infinite. A 90-meter counter for ECM is far less useful than a 180 meter counter. It really has nothing to do with the ECM bubble.

[RedDevil]

Flutterguy, on 15 July 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

Nope, doesn't count because you can destroy the UAV.

So can a spotter. I guess spotters don't count either "because you can destroy a spotter"?

Edited by RedDevil, 15 July 2015 - 06:38 PM.

[Flutterguy]

RedDevil, on 15 July 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

So can a spotter. I guess spotters don't count either "because you can destroy a spotter"?

That's kind of my point. Except for NARCs there is always something to destroy to keep LRMs out of your face.

[GoodTry]

Fluero, on 15 July 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

Dont nerf CAP/BAP so much...
Means a streak mech is effectively limp till the 90m ecm removal.

I have 27 BAPs across my IS fleet.
I was a big fan of breaking ECM and hope the new changes are documented to allow new and under educated players realise a 1ton 1 slot piece can save their embarrassing "no locks" on missile boats.

Agreed. I just don't get why they think that the BAP needs such a big nerf.

[bad arcade kitty]

Past, on 15 July 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

Could we have some synergy between BAP and ECM when ECM is switched to counter mode. Currently the cancelling effect of BAP doesn't function when ECM is set to disrupt which i believe is fair but a little bonus to the range when on counter mode to reflect the two pieces of equipment working in tandem would be a cool feature.

was one of my very first questions when i began to play this game

Fluero, on 15 July 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

Dont nerf CAP/BAP so much...
Means a streak mech is effectively limp till the 90m ecm removal.

I have 27 BAPs across my IS fleet.
I was a big fan of breaking ECM and hope the new changes are documented to allow new and under educated players realise a 1ton 1 slot piece can save their embarrassing "no locks" on missile boats.

at the very end they can remove that bs double missile lock time; it serves little purpose anyway, let ecm either prevent locks or don't hinder them at all, depending on the distance; either that or let they make a separate range for allowing normal locks on bap, ecm has a separate range to prevent those locks from afar after all

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 15 July 2015 - 06:45 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Rick Rollington, on 15 July 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

Crazy idea..... but what if Indirect Fire only worked provided the Spotter kept his crosshair on the target. Ignore ECM, BAP, TAG, Narc, etc for a moment.

Because the main complaint I'm seeing from the Magic Jesus Box Lovers is that it saves them from the "C3 Godmode LRM Autolocks" (admittedly, paraphrasing). So it's really just the "Press R to win" issue that most people have with LRMs. Now, if the Spotter had to keep the crosshair on target the entire time for the lock to hold, suddenly it requires someone to be a dedicated spotter, and not just target the person they are in a Brawl with. This would be one hell of a nerf to indirect LRMs, so they'd probably need a minor buff to make them better in LoS.

Just a thought.

With what you mention, I'd also explore having LRMs be fire and forget when the shooter cannot see the target and a spotter has maintained their crosshair / reticle on target with TAG for the time that is required to acquire the lock and not simply have pressed 'R' as you mention.

Might even consider using the SSRM bone targeting for LRMs that hit with a lock, and I'd also have TAG be on it's own unique hardpoint like other specialized gear (and only since it needs a spot to fire its beam from, that I'd also consider making invisible without Heat or Night Vision active).

Then NARC would be the other way to allow for indirect Locks.

And this would be where missiles would follow around the crosshair / reticle without locks so that the player could aim the missiles; and that locks for LRMs would only occur with TAG and NARC. As such missiles would then likely need different ripple fire patterns and then Artemis, TAG, and NARC would increase missile response to correcting it's course with LOS on target and the missile response boost be defeated by ECM.

Would make AMS way more important I'd imagine and help LRMs so that they could be made more useful as necessary from there.

[RedDevil]

Flutterguy, on 15 July 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

That's kind of my point. Except for NARCs there is always something to destroy to keep LRMs out of your face.

And the point I was disputing was that "Missile boats can't see through walls without spotters." Then you say being able to destroy something that spots makes it not count, so you're constantly changing the goalposts.

[bad arcade kitty]

LORD ORION, on 15 July 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

Nowhere did I ever mention the streaks were considering bap

you have to use bap on any streakboat

[Pjwned]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 05:25 PM, said:

Seems i didn't properly grasp how C3 works, oh well. No locks without LOS for 1.5 tons is still reasonable and you know it. It's also not a crutch because the ECM really only comes into play when I drop in with my sniper mech (the one that uses ECM; i do play non-ECM mechs) into a match where the enemy team is incredibly LRM heavy.

For 1.5 tons it's actually not reasonable and is still a crutch, and it still comes into play outside of the most extreme situations possible because it's so broken.

Quote

When that team proceeds to lurm to death targets that only one of them has a LOS on, I get to be the last guy standing because I wasn't immeditely mauled by enemies i have no way of fighting back against (I'm a light mech so id drop pretty quickly without ECM since speed can't protect you from lurms).

Balancing around pilots being terrible is always a poor idea, and saying that speed doesn't protect from LRMs only tells me that your position awareness is awful; even if you tend to pilot slower clan light mechs they still have more than enough speed to dodge LRMs quite well.

Quote

When the enemy team brings weapons that aren't point and click adventure focused I still do pretty great in my sniper and wouldn't even mind if I had no ECM.

That just speaks to how broken ECM is in its current form; if I bring my 1.5 (1) ton jesus box ECM then I don't have to deal with an entire weapon system because I just passively hard counter it BALANCED LOL!

[FaT4Li7y]

bad arcade kitty, on 15 July 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

do you know that ecm prevents locks outside of 200 meters? 250 with bap
the radius of its 180-90 meters umbrella doesn't matter here

Huh?
ECM does jack **** outside of 180m. Disrupt or counter. No effect outside of 180m radius.

[White Bear 84]

Pro:

You reduce the bubble of death, mechs have to cluster together more (or in CW bring MOAR ecm, which potentially gimps team if you have less of the powerful meta builds)

Pro:

Will allow scout mechs with ecm to scout moar without being detected by their ecm jam (i kno, counter, but the idea is to remain under ecm,.)

Con (for the enemy team at least):

less warning of said mechs..

[Flutterguy]

RedDevil, on 15 July 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

And the point I was disputing was that "Missile boats can't see through walls without spotters." Then you say being able to destroy something that spots makes it not count, so you're constantly changing the goalposts.

Flutterguy, on 15 July 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

You realize of course that LRM boats don't magically see through walls. Something has to be used as a spotter and aside from NARCs those spotters can be destroyed. Moreover, unless you are woefully out of position, you can just break LOS and take cover.

Nope, same goalposts. Notice how I use the phrase "something"? That was intentional to include UAVs as spotters.

[bad arcade kitty]

Faktype, on 15 July 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

Huh?
ECM does jack **** outside of 180m. Disrupt or counter. No effect outside of 180m radius.

haha, try to lock a ecm mech with your lrm boat from 500 meters
ecm prevents locks outside of 200 meter zone (250 with bap, 300 with bap and sensor range module)
the locks in the band between 180 and 200(250, 300) are twice as slower

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 15 July 2015 - 06:49 PM.

[Xhaleon]

The range nerf for ECM changes nothing. If two ECM mechs are not enough to cover a team, then tryhard groups will run with four.

The problem with MWO ECM is not that it is too powerful; it is fundamentally broke. It should not be a piece of equipment that is a direct counter to one particular subset of weapon systems which doesn't provide much unique utility over direct fire guns, and that is as a secondary feature to its primary function! It isn't even supposed to block missile lock-ons in the first place.

What ECM should do is to change the way target locks work, not how a weapon works. ECM is for stealth isn't it, not as a protective bubble shield? Right now it does half of the stealth job correctly by masking enemy movement at range especially if no one calls out their position the hard way. The other half is that it should prevent doritos from appearing, auto-target and on-screen target scrolling functionality. That's it; that is all it should do, not hamper or completely block a very specific method of killing things. If someone manually points their reticule at an enemy under the influence of ECM, they should be able to target it and use lock-on weapons with NO ISSUE. Added bonus if ECM influence prevents the target lock from resuming if the enemy mech leaves line of sight and returns later; that is a stealth effect and that is a job for ECM.

If LRM spam at longer ranges is your primary concern about what side effects the lack of lock-on prevention might entail, then that's something that should change on the LRM side, not ECM. Remove missile tracking on indirectly fired LRMs, that's it. Problem fixed; a 1.5 ton piece of equipment does not need to do more than it is meant to do.

Do this and no range nerf is needed, no harder shift towards even more ECM mechs per group will occur.

Edited by Xhaleon, 15 July 2015 - 06:51 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Flutterguy, on 15 July 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

That's kind of my point. Except for NARCs there is always something to destroy to keep LRMs out of your face.

But the difficulty of destroying the spotter is way out of proportion with how easy it is for an LRM team to destroy the targets the spotter is spotting (provided there is no ECM ofcourse). It's not as simple as turning and shooting the guy spotting. You have to first locate him, then you have to shoot and destroy a potentially fast moving mech while a torrential downpour of cockpit shaking missiles rains down upon your head, If you are in a PUG group it gets even harder, because half of them probably won't figure out what's going on until the damage is done.

[FaT4Li7y]

bad arcade kitty, on 15 July 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

haha, try to lock a ecm mech with your lrm boat from 500 meters
ecm prevents locks outside of 200 meter zone (250 with bap, 300 with bap and sensor range module)
the locks in the band between 180 and 200(250, 300) are twice as slower

you say ECM prevents locks. i get locks fine in my HBR with ECM at 200m or 800m, even 1000m with sensor range.
ah you mean it prevents locks for the opponent. I see but it does prevent locks from ANYWHERE on the battlefield so what about 200m. sure 200m and 2000m because ECM prevents locks inside 180m. ECM does jack **** outside of 180m.