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Ecm Change Feedback


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#21 ScarecrowES

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:19 PM

Reducing ECM range has little practical effect on gameplay, merely due to the sheer volume of ECM capable mechs out there. (clans are getting 2 more chassis with ECM this upcoming week). I'm ok with a range reduction... but we'll have to see how it plays out. Reducing by half seems excessive for a first pass.

I'd be super careful about BAP though. The primary point of carrying BAP is to allow for streak locks, and you don't want to go breaking that mechanic.

#22 vetal l

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:19 PM

great start. ECM was overpowered.

#23 Threat Doc

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:19 PM

Quote

It's been a while since I addressed you all about some of the upcoming balance changes coming to MWO.

You may have heard that there is a new system coming down the pipe that will revisit/change/remove the current quirk system.
Where? Where is this information? If it's ANYWHERE OTHER THAN ON THESE FORUMS, that's borked and needs to be changed, period. You are notorious, PGI, for putting information everywhere it doesn't belong, and not here as well. That's ignorant. So, if there is new information about revisiting/changing/removing the current quirk system, I've not heard anything about it, not one word, and I would like to.

Quote

In order for this new system to work properly, some fundamental changes need to be made for role warfare/information warfare aspects of the game. The first of these changes comes to the almighty ECM.
Thank GOD!!! It's about time.

Quote

This change to ECM is a first pass of what may or may not lead to further changes in its operation. By change I'm referring to reducing the effective range of ECM from 180 meters to 90 meters.
I read the entire post, I'm just snipping it, here, because I like where you're starting, and I agree the entire system needs to be overhauled for the sake of proper information warfare. However, is that information warfare going to be restricted to the combat simulator, or will it be a part of the wider four-pillars game?

So, destructible pieces of the maps, updates to the maps, changes to general game-play, including a redux of the Quirks/Information Warfare pillar system... depending on where you go with this, I may very well be back to play, again.

#24 Summon3r

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:20 PM

View PostTastian, on 15 July 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

ECM needs more then a range decrease. The Streak/LRM/ECM/BAP/C3/Artemis/TAG/UAV/target information relationship needs to be overhauled.


this right here...

are you really putting this much thought into the range of ECM?? seriously?? my god 90m is a no brainer if not 60m!! BAP/CAP why even nerf it?!?!

start making info warfare a thing, like fer real, give a reason to have recon/spotting mechs...... an entire write up on just ECM?

im with Kain Demos on that entire post from Paul...... Russ praised this new hit reg it is a complete cluster eff.... a complete rebalance i cannot even begin to imagine where this is going to go

#25 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:21 PM

Cool I guess I will just bring 3 Hellbringers and a Shadow Cat to CW now.

Oh wait I'm in the IS. Damn...

#26 StalaggtIKE

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:21 PM

So..., it's essentially the same, just with a smaller umbrella. Hardly significant.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 16 July 2015 - 05:24 AM.


#27 Twilight Fenrir

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:23 PM

I was a bit concerned when I saw the topic, and immediately clicked in to see how bad it would be...

Not bad at all... Perfectly reasonable, I think.

I personally never had a problem with ECM as it was, heck, I liked it best when ECM created a little pocket dimension of pain where enemies couldn't see where their allies were if they were under an enemy ECM blanket :P That was sooooo much fun, lol...

But, that was back when only two mechs could do it.

I still don't think there's anything wrong with ECM as it sits now, The Cauldron Born making its way into CW really reduced the amount of ECM from Hellbringers significantly. And that's the only place I found it to be unbalanced.

But, the proposed change doesn't worry me either. Carry on.

View PostKay Wolf, on 15 July 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

Where? Where is this information? If it's ANYWHERE OTHER THAN ON THESE FORUMS, that's borked and needs to be changed, period. You are notorious, PGI, for putting information everywhere it doesn't belong, and not here as well. That's ignorant. So, if there is new information about revisiting/changing/removing the current quirk system, I've not heard anything about it, not one word, and I would like to.

Technically it's on the forums? It was talked about in the last Town Hall, which is published on the forum, and the transcript is made available as well... There just wasn't a seperate announcement made for each and every bullet point he hit on.

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 15 July 2015 - 03:29 PM.


#28 Void Angel

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:24 PM

Excellent. While hardly the "magic Jesus box" so many of the professionally dissatisfied have claimed it to be, ECM was too powerful, and this is a good start to bringing it back into balance. If you could, I strongly recommend looking at how LRMs (and Streaks) work in general, as well as how they interact with ECM systems. Making the system gradually lose effectiveness the longer the target 'mech is in sight might be perfect: you'd still be able to scout with it, but standing in the open while immune to LRMs would no longer be a thing. Of course, in my opinion LRMs need a rework as well, but one thing at a time - or at least per thread!

#29 Jack Shayu Walker

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:25 PM

View PostFlutterguy, on 15 July 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

Your logic makes AMS sad... ECM really shouldn't be the go to system to stop missiles.


Maybe it does, but AMS is more common for a reason. I run ECM because I want to go unmolested until I engage the enemy, and so that I can escape enemy fire by taking cover with no indirect fire shenanigans. I limit my mech choices and pay my one ton (and i'd pay more) so that I can have this protection from indirect fire. if you take away the ability for ECM to hide doritos then at least make it so Lurmboats need line of sight to lock onto an ECM prtected mech.

In my opinion we already have this balance struck due to TAG lasers, and I think it is very fair that a enemy mech be able to lock onto me if they have LOS.

#30 Void Angel

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:29 PM

View PostKay Wolf, on 15 July 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

I read the entire post, I'm just snipping it, here, because I like where you're starting, and I agree the entire system needs to be overhauled for the sake of proper information warfare. However, is that information warfare going to be restricted to the combat simulator, or will it be a part of the wider four-pillars game?

So, destructible pieces of the maps, updates to the maps, changes to general game-play, including a redux of the Quirks/Information Warfare pillar system... depending on where you go with this, I may very well be back to play, again.

They've talked about making scouting and such a part of CW via the planned small-teams matches (lance-level, if I recall; this was for once talked about somewhere official a while ago.) I can't recall where they were talking about it, but it should be good.

However, the combat game is the bread-and-butter of MWO, so if it only makes it to there, I'll be happy. Maybe widely separated Conquest-style capture points where light 'mechs could actually be useful for something other than LRM spotting and gen rushes. I can dream..,.

#31 DeathsScythe

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:31 PM

And the missiles will blot out the sky...I use to complain about ecm, now I don't think there is enough of it out there all this will do will bring out more skilless lrm 5 spammers...sigh

#32 Groundpound Devalis

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:33 PM

View PostKay Wolf, on 15 July 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

Where? Where is this information? If it's ANYWHERE OTHER THAN ON THESE FORUMS, that's borked and needs to be changed, period. You are notorious, PGI, for putting information everywhere it doesn't belong, and not here as well. That's ignorant. So, if there is new information about revisiting/changing/removing the current quirk system, I've not heard anything about it, not one word, and I would like to.

Thank GOD!!! It's about time.

I read the entire post, I'm just snipping it, here, because I like where you're starting, and I agree the entire system needs to be overhauled for the sake of proper information warfare. However, is that information warfare going to be restricted to the combat simulator, or will it be a part of the wider four-pillars game?

So, destructible pieces of the maps, updates to the maps, changes to general game-play, including a redux of the Quirks/Information Warfare pillar system... depending on where you go with this, I may very well be back to play, again.


They do post it here. It was discussed in the townhall. They link the audio on these forums. Please quit making me defend PGI.

#33 Telmasa

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:34 PM

I say it's a step in the correct, broad direction....

...but that looks like ECM remains a Jesus Box.

Making it have less range won't make it any less of a Jesus Box.

Remove and separate the IFF features, otherwise you can cut the range down to 30m and ultimately ECM mechs will still carry a hell of an edge.


On the plus side, I'm glad to see you're ready to undo & step away from weapon quirks and find other ways to make 'Mechs feel unique while keeping weapon balance intact.

#34 Moomtazz

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:35 PM

I guess sales of the Griffin and Phract ECM mechs have tapered off enough to where Russ thinks he sold all he will sell. Add that to the clever release of the Clan Third wave Heavy and Assault mechs before the two ECM carriers from the pack, ensuring that people can't cancel their pre-orders for the soon to be nerfed mechs.

Very clever but very manipulative. Shame on PGI!

#35 Dagorlad13

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:36 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 15 July 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

Cool I guess I will just bring 3 Hellbringers and a Shadow Cat to CW now.

Oh wait I'm in the IS. Damn...


Yeah, so you will take 3 ECM Cataphracts and a Firestarter.

#36 Jack Shayu Walker

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:36 PM

At the very least, ECM needs to retain the following qualities.

-Hides user's dorito at longer ranges.
-Hides user's dorito at closer ranges for at least a limited amount of time.
-Prevents LRM locks unless the enemy firing the missiles has direct LOS.
-Provides these qualities to the mech the ECM is equipped to, not necessarily his friends.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 15 July 2015 - 03:40 PM.


#37 Drunk Canuck

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:37 PM

Bow down before our LRM overlords.

If you change ECM, you better fix target locking so that as soon as you are out of Line of Sight, you can't be tracked by LRM's. Otherwise, stop trying to make the idiot point and click weapon system viable.

Edit: Lights with ECM will now get REKT because of Streak boats even more. Gonna nerf the hell out of them Clam Streaks too Paul? Because that is a system that still hasn't been balanced properly and still easy mode counters ECM at a 1 to 1 ratio.

Edited by Drunk Canuck, 15 July 2015 - 03:49 PM.


#38 OznerpaG

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:37 PM

sounds fine to me

something to consider:

''signal'' or ''stealth ECM'' (call it a personal ECM), which only blocks your own mech's info from being collected: 1t, 1 crit

"blanket ECM" or "support ECM" (90m range): 2t, 3 crit - as ECM works now


also ECM should be completely nullified by TAG - it's dumb that i can paint an ECM mech with TAG and it still somehow takes a long time to lock on. TAG is basically a laser designator and not a radio signal so ECM should not affect it in any way. i'd agree TAG should not be able to give you the enemy mech's paper doll since you are lasing it, but actual targeting should not be interfered with

if you want to counter TAG make another electronic device to counter it, or add .5t and another crit to ECM to add in a TAG counter feature.


also BAP - BAP is currently a hard counter to ECM. but if ECM range decreases BAP range should stay the same but it should no longer be a hard counter to ECM, it should be a benefit ONLY to the mech carrying BAP. so if an ECM mech is hiding 3 other mechs, a BAP equipped mech in range will be able to target any of the 4 mechs in range of BAP, but the rest of the team should only be able to see the mech targeted by the BAP mech and not the rest of the mechs being protected by ECM

Edited by JagdFlanker, 15 July 2015 - 03:54 PM.


#39 Alistair Winter

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:40 PM

Yes! Make it 60 meters!

I did not see this coming. I have to say... I'm very happy about this. Mind you, I would prefer to split ECM into two separate pieces of equipment - Angel and Guardian ECM. I think PGI is underestimating the amount of complexity players can handle, and by trying to simplify the game, they've made ECM too powerful. Anyway, since I never expected PGI to actually change ECM, I consider this a positive.

So...
  • I think it's good ECM is being looked at.
  • I think it's good that certain mechs will have extended sensor ranges or different ECM buffs.
  • I think it's good that you're doing multiple (!) PTS runs to try out different solutions.
  • I hope we MWO will get some real role warfare and information warfare one day in the future.

View PostDrunk Canuck, on 15 July 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

Bow down before our LRM overlords.

If you change ECM, you better fix target locking so that as soon as you are out of Line of Sight, you can't be tracked by LRM's. Otherwise, stop trying to make the idiot point and click weapon system viable.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what, if anything, PGI does about LRMs and SSRMs. It will make or break the game for a lot of people.

#40 bad arcade kitty

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:42 PM

to clarify why changing bap range will hurt streaks

ecm has 2 different zones, 180 (will change to 90) meters zone inside which ecm jams sensors/prevents locks and 200 meters zone outside which ecm prevents locks and radar marks; in the band between 180(90) and 200 you can lock the ecm hidden mech but twice as slowly (or to give the target info to another teammate to lock, twice as slowly again); bap increases 200 to 250 though

now, bap has 240 meters range (streaks have 360 so ecm mech already has an advantage), it's a nice distance to use streaks, but if they blindly decrease bap range it will slow down the locks by two in the band between 250 and the new bap range

they cannot really increase the 200 meters no lock zone either, because it's a separate nerf to ecm and mostly to its solo usage

i dunno, imo they either shouldn't even touch bap at all or should make that it allows normal locks at at least 240 meters range even if it completely negates ecm at a shorter range

upd

a bit fixed, added that bap buffs the sensors too and afaik extends that 200 meter zone by 25%

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 15 July 2015 - 03:58 PM.






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