945 replies to this topic

[Hammerhai]

If you feel that the change is necessary, go ahead. Just please no LURMpocalypse III or IV as a result. And be careful to keep Lights functional, please.

Having been around since 2012 I rest content the design process is in good hands, even if we often do not know the details of it.

And DO consider using this opportunity to bring ECM back closer to its Guardian capabilities, if at all possible.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Screw canon/lore (kinda). I'm down with nerfing ECM. Trying to run a LRM boat in PUG queue is pointless right now, thanks to 13 ECMs on every enemy 12-man and ZERO friendly NARC or TAG. So thumbs up, let's do this!

Just a thought, though. Canonical ECM stopped sharing target data across an enemy ECM 'bubble.' Cool. But what about targeting ingeneral between mechs with LOS that doesn't cross the bubble? I'm feeling that it should be alright, maybe just degraded. Like, no target ID and data, just a red box. If the mech with LOS to the ECM-protected targets has BAP, then just slow target data acquisition. Slow locks without BAP, normal locks with. That sort of thing. And drop the 'counter' mode on ECM. Let BAP be our counter-ECM, at least sorta.

My $.02. No, I don't care about what happened in Jack Lives-in-gramma's-basement wrote in the fourth novel in his series of six about the Gray Death Legion. Again, screw canon and lore. Don't care. Didn't ask. Stating my opinion. KTHXBAI

[BadKimche]

There can't be something called Passive RADAR guys. I am sorry, please forgive me, but it's fundamentally a stupid comment. The only way RADAR can work is by emitting radio wave energy. In simplest terms, the only way to make RADAR passive is by turning it off. You can't broadcast energy to find something passively.

I hope I am not being too offensive. It's just the way it is and it doesn't mean that mechs don't already have basic active and passive sensors. In fact, there are already some in the game. There are three vision modes, normal, IR and Thermal. In real life, Normal and Thermal would, by definition, be passive. But IR can be both as you can see at night so so with basic IR butif you also use an IR light you can boost your visible range significantly but you also turn yourself into a blazing target for enemies equipped with IR as well.

Seismic Sensor I a passive sensor system and the truth is, there is a basic un named sensor capability for all mechs already in the game because you can visually see a shutdown mech long before you can lock it without a Probe right? So if you have two enemy mechs side by side, one running the other shut down, you will light and lock them at different ranges because......a mechs already have basic sensor systems.

If you really want to play the ECM game within any realm of real world reason. Range should extend the full area of the map and ECM should be able to do whatever I is ECM is supposed to do regardless of distance. MWO maps are way to small for distance to have any effect on active sensors and ECM. Open the range up and concentrate instead on deciding how real systems work in the real world and how ECM can effect them in the real world.

Until you accept his fundamental principle, sensor and countermeasure systems will remain a gamey gimmicky cludge.

[Drunken Skull]

BadKimche, on 06 August 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

There can't be something called Passive RADAR... make RADAR passive ... by turning it off.

*claps hands slowly*.... Ever heard of a Shrike Missile?

https://en.wikipedia...i/AGM-45_Shrike

Edited by Drunken Skull, 06 August 2015 - 09:27 PM.

[Brother MEX]

Tastian, on 15 July 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

ECM needs more then a range decrease. The Streak/LRM/ECM/BAP/C3/Artemis/TAG/UAV/target information relationship needs to be overhauled.

Instead of tinkering with ECM, you should REMOVE the C3 features from any mech which doesnt have this piece of equipment !

Without C3 every mech should only be able to lock his missiles on targets which he spots himself !

[Drunken Skull]

Brother MEX, on 06 August 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

Instead of tinkering with ECM, you should REMOVE the C3 features from any mech which doesnt have this piece of equipment !

Without C3 every mech should only be able to lock his missiles on targets which he spots himself !

Drunken Skull, on 26 July 2015 - 01:37 AM, said:

This would just be misuse of another piece of technology not quite yet implemented, as it has already been explained earlier, C3 Network is a Targeting Buff system, it is not in fact responsible for indirect locks at all.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 06 August 2015 - 10:27 PM.

[Daikyu Kell]

Ok my two cents

First of all you need to impliment REAL radar, active(1000m) and passive (200m) with a toggle

Increase sensor range module should still have it's 25% increase, raising detection range to 1250m and 250m

ECM should shield the carrying mech and those within 90m from active radar(see above) down from 1000m to 600m,
and not be the almighty god stick that it currently is.

ECM should still have counter/disrupt mode and still effect streak and standard LRM missiles within 180m
but should have a lock on time peanalty instead of nullifying locks altogether.

BAP closer than 180m should defeat the above bonuses to ECM

TAG should remain the same but with a range increase to 1000m

Those under ECM should still be targetable through TAG or visual LOS

Visual targeting should be to 2000m via "Target under Reticle", LOS rules apply, Radar Dep rules apply,

Those whom are still under ECM but targeted by LOS but should incur a lock on time peanalty for
missiles and info gathering.

Radar Deprivation module should remain as is.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Question - since most the ECM mechs are subpar to compensate for having ECM, are they going to get some buffage now that ECM is being reduced?

My Raven 3L has 3 laser hardpoints to the Firestarter's 8. The lower damage output was a fair trade for having such a large ECM bubble, but now that's gone....

[breaks down into tears]

No...hic...I'm okay, no really. Just - hic - give me a moment.

I just want another laser hardpoint. You can even put it in the left arm... please.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 07 August 2015 - 09:45 AM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Oh one more thing - please address the BAP/ECM coexistence conflict.

Lets assume counter ECM ranges out to 90 meters
Lets assume BAP counters ECM out to 120 meters

If I am running an ECM mech equipped with BAP, its fine to say that BAP counter is inoperative while ECM is active.
But if I switch ECM to counter mode, I should get the higher of the two ranges, not the lesser.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 07 August 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[LordSkeletor]

About damned time. ECM is so OP, it's ridiculous. Nobody is really going to cry for the LRMers; but with as many ECM 'mechs are there are---and their current range; two tiny mechs could conceivably hide within their spheres of activity, which is nuts.
In total agreement. Reduce ECM's range, ASAP!

[gl0w]

Paul, please go back in time and tell us more about this in the last vlog. Thanks!

[ManusDei]

Fenrisulvyn makes a good point why allow ECM to counter BAP when its in both "counter" and "disrupt" mode? It makes no sense. What are you gaining by reducing BAP range? Nothing. Your just giving ECM enabled mechs an out not to be targeted until 90 meters. Makes no sense. Come on Paul...say what you really mean. You don't care for nerfing ECM as much as you would like to kill streak boats. You love lights Paul. You want them to live longer so you use nerfing ECM AND BAP as an excuse to push another weapons balance. Its going to be a disaster... Lights are going to rule the battlefield even more. Time to switch back to laser vomit. Oh and hey all the nerfs to the Timberwolf for laser vomit builds didn't work. Pilots just buy a different mech and put the same loadout they had on their timberwolf. But I'm sure in all your great wisdom you knew that already.

[Lightfoot]

Well you have given all the mechs Angel ECM, not Guardian ECM so perhaps BAP should be doing more. And ECM does not block missile locks with line of sight to the target. Again, maybe BAP should do more if you want to continue adding this feature to ECM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

El Bandito: "Those who scoff at AMS have lost their rights to whine about LRMs."

That's almost quote worthy. Lemme steal from C.S. Lewis...

"We laugh at AMS but are shocked to find LRMs in our midst"

[Drunken Skull]

Someone mentioned in an earlier post on this thread; the reason indirect fire LRM was not a major problem in the TT Btech game was because one spotter could only provide an indirect fire lock for one LRM boat per turn.

I think this is an important game mechanic that has been overlooked, and may be the root cause of the current ECM debacle (indirect fire LRM being misused, then ECM being implemented as a counter).

Any true solution to the problem should probably start here, with the proper implementation of indirect lock being a "one spotter-one LRMist" affair; where the first mech to launch an LRM salvo getting the indirect lock and all others losing that lock.

TAG would only buff direct lock fire and the indirect lock fire for the single LRMist, it would not allow for additional indirect locks at all.

The NARC missile beacon would then have it's proper purpose by allowing more than 1 indirect lock.

C3 network could be implemented to add lance-wide indirect lock, providing all mechs in that lance are suitably equipped with the correct master/slave modules. C3 could also be used to buff direct fire energy and ballistics weapons fire.

ECM is then properly implemented as the counter for the enemy's C3, NARC, ARTEMIS buffs, etc, but does not otherwise affect direct fire LRM/SRM fire and renders SSRM as SRM. Also, if the ECM field lies between the spotter mech and the indirect lock LRMist, no indirect lock is possible, as comms between the two are effectively jammed, similarly so with C3 indirect locks.

An effective cure for the boating problem would be to make the missile hardpoints on mechs fixed so that they can only be included or excluded, but not changed for another type. This would add value to using the various different mech sub-types, and would give a more realistic feel to the rigidity and inflexibility of modifying IS tech, whilst not hampering the flexibility of the clan omni system too much.

A similar limitation to AC20 Auto-Cannon and Gauss-Cannon placement should also be implemented to counter the unrealistic use/boating of these massive weapons systems, This would give these weapons a much more realistic and true to Btech feel, where a mech is literally built around these massive weapons systems (Goliath with Gauss cannon for instance). Recoil from the firing of these weapons should be massive and make it a challenge to stay upright, let alone on-target, and firing more than one at a time or within the recoil effect of another should result in displacement of the mech with a chance of being knocked down. Furthermore, Light and medium mechs fielding these weapons should have to take on a special stance beforehand to brace themselves sufficiently before firing, or risk being displaced with a chance of being knocked down by the recoil. Any mech being hit by a AC20 or Gauss should also run the risk of being displaced and possibly knocked down, depending on the size/weight/motion of the mech.

Proper balance between Inner Sphere and Clan should be achieved by allowing the Inner Sphere mechs to deal MELEE damage in combat, through punching, kicking, using an equipped weapon(Hatchetman for example) or debris as a club where hand actuators are present in the mechs design, also by Charging towards a target or by Death From Above.

The different classes of mechs should have varying degrees of MELEE damage strength and differing mechanics in terms of what constitutes a makeshift weapon. The punch or kick of an assault mech should be as formidable as an AC20 damage-wise(this would lessen the leg-hugging behaviour of light mechs in close quarters combat). A light mech might use a light pole as a club, where as a heavy or assault mech would be able to use much larger pieces of debris as a makeshift weapon.

Clan mechs are incapable of MELEE Combat, however their weaponry is superior. The Clan counter to their Mechs not being able to deal MELEE damage is the use of the Elemental who can deal MELEE damage (and also whose use will lower the Clan Dropweight, allowing for more balance in Clan Vs Inner Sphere firepower dominance). The Counter to being infested by Elementals is the Anti-Personnel Pod. This is the BTECH Canon approach (and it would be fun to pilot a Wasp or Stinger with a light pole as a club, or start peeling off the enemies armour plates as an Elemental).

Edited by Drunken Skull, 09 August 2015 - 12:08 AM.

[Mikex88]

Flutterguy, on 15 July 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

Your logic makes AMS sad... ECM really shouldn't be the go to system to stop missiles.

But thats what ECM is for .. at least in this game it is ...and its the only reason , why me and all my friends use it.
and despite the Anti missile abilities , we still get constantly pounded by missiles, cause there are so many ways to counter ECM units ( UAV, TAG, Beagle, ECM: Counter mode, Narc ...etc....) I think ecm is pretty much nerfed down anyway... and a range decrease to 90 meters should be more than sufficient.
If the Ecm would be degraded to a "Tabletop" soft counter device, than there would be not much use for it in my eyes anymore.

This game is a realtime FPS-Strategy game. you can't play it like a tabletop game, where you have to thow dices.
Besides If PGI would want to make this game exactly like tabletop, then they should stick 100% to it , and this would implement changing many more things than only ECM capabilities.

Edited by Mikex88, 09 August 2015 - 07:14 AM.

[Rinkata Prime]

BadKimche, on 06 August 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

There can't be something called Passive RADAR guys. I am sorry, please forgive me, but it's fundamentally a stupid comment. The only way RADAR can work is by emitting radio wave energy. In simplest terms, the only way to make RADAR passive is by turning it off. You can't broadcast energy to find something passively.

Facedesk, read this.
https://en.wikipedia...i/Passive_radar

Edited by Rinkata Kimiku, 09 August 2015 - 05:47 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

Has anyone seen a date for when these changes will happen to ECM?

[Fallenbourne]

The whole system needs a redesign. Right now BAP and ECM work almost backwards of what they should be. I understand this is a fps being built off a TT game but this shouldn't be that hard.

I'm probably reiterating what multiple people have said already but hopefully if enough people say the same thing maybe, just maybe PGI will listen.

ECM should counter BAP, narc, artemis, and C3. Countering artemis may be a pain to code so for ease factor just increase lock-on time and TIG, but still be able to get a full lock-on. Since all mechs technically have C3 in this game any enemy mech in your bubble is removed from enemy radar. So no indirect fire LOS coming from that mech, no lock-on, etc.
ECCM still works as normal countering enemy ECM.

BAP should be the ability to target a shutdown mech at X range,faster lock-on, TIG.

BAP + TAG targeting something in an ECM bubble should give you standard lock on time and TIG. So just BAP or TAG alone you have a slower lock on time targeting something in the bubble. So with BAP, something TAGGED, and modules you should target something faster than normal in a ECM bubble.

So now BAP isn't the counter to ECM. ECM counters BAP but its not that hard of a counter as with TAG and modules you can mitigate it or over come it. Makes the game deadlier and helps counter turtleing.

All information I am using has come from the Battletech Master Rules revised edition. The last set of rules FASA put out (I think).

[DaFrog]

Drunken Skull, on 08 August 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

Someone mentioned in an earlier post on this thread; the reason indirect fire LRM was not a major problem in the TT Btech game was because one spotter could only provide an indirect fire lock for one LRM boat per turn.

I think this is an important game mechanic that has been overlooked, and may be the root cause of the current ECM debacle (indirect fire LRM being misused, then ECM being implemented as a counter).

Any true solution to the problem should probably start here, with the proper implementation of indirect lock being a "one spotter-one LRMist" affair; where the first mech to launch an LRM salvo getting the indirect lock and all others losing that lock.

TAG would only buff direct lock fire and the indirect lock fire for the single LRMist, it would not allow for additional indirect locks at all.

The NARC missile beacon would then have it's proper purpose by allowing more than 1 indirect lock.

C3 network could be implemented to add lance-wide indirect lock, providing all mechs in that lance are suitably equipped with the correct master/slave modules. C3 could also be used to buff direct fire energy and ballistics weapons fire.

ECM is then properly implemented as the counter for the enemy's C3, NARC, ARTEMIS buffs, etc, but does not otherwise affect direct fire LRM/SRM fire and renders SSRM as SRM. Also, if the ECM field lies between the spotter mech and the indirect lock LRMist, no indirect lock is possible, as comms between the two are effectively jammed, similarly so with C3 indirect locks.

An effective cure for the boating problem would be to make the missile hardpoints on mechs fixed so that they can only be included or excluded, but not changed for another type. This would add value to using the various different mech sub-types, and would give a more realistic feel to the rigidity and inflexibility of modifying IS tech, whilst not hampering the flexibility of the clan omni system too much.

A similar limitation to AC20 Auto-Cannon and Gauss-Cannon placement should also be implemented to counter the unrealistic use/boating of these massive weapons systems, This would give these weapons a much more realistic and true to Btech feel, where a mech is literally built around these massive weapons systems (Goliath with Gauss cannon for instance). Recoil from the firing of these weapons should be massive and make it a challenge to stay upright, let alone on-target, and firing more than one at a time or within the recoil effect of another should result in displacement of the mech with a chance of being knocked down. Furthermore, Light and medium mechs fielding these weapons should have to take on a special stance beforehand to brace themselves sufficiently before firing, or risk being displaced with a chance of being knocked down by the recoil. Any mech being hit by a AC20 or Gauss should also run the risk of being displaced and possibly knocked down, depending on the size/weight/motion of the mech.

Proper balance between Inner Sphere and Clan should be achieved by allowing the Inner Sphere mechs to deal MELEE damage in combat, through punching, kicking, using an equipped weapon(Hatchetman for example) or debris as a club where hand actuators are present in the mechs design, also by Charging towards a target or by Death From Above.

The different classes of mechs should have varying degrees of MELEE damage strength and differing mechanics in terms of what constitutes a makeshift weapon. The punch or kick of an assault mech should be as formidable as an AC20 damage-wise(this would lessen the leg-hugging behaviour of light mechs in close quarters combat). A light mech might use a light pole as a club, where as a heavy or assault mech would be able to use much larger pieces of debris as a makeshift weapon.

Clan mechs are incapable of MELEE Combat, however their weaponry is superior. The Clan counter to their Mechs not being able to deal MELEE damage is the use of the Elemental who can deal MELEE damage (and also whose use will lower the Clan Dropweight, allowing for more balance in Clan Vs Inner Sphere firepower dominance). The Counter to being infested by Elementals is the Anti-Personnel Pod. This is the BTECH Canon approach (and it would be fun to pilot a Wasp or Stinger with a light pole as a club, or start peeling off the enemies armour plates as an Elemental).

Wrong, the spotter in TT can not do a single thing except giving coordinates to several launchers. No firing. So to the die roll you had to add launcher throw penalties ( move, heat, sensors ), spotter penalties ( move, heat, sensors, terrain ) and target penalties ( move ). That is why spotting for indirect fire was never popular as a strategy in TT.