Ecm Change Feedback
#901
Posted 04 October 2015 - 08:10 AM
But it's okay. I don't think this game is really for the guys who played TT or even MW2 or 3 anyhow. I've seen way to much lore-breaking for it to matter at this point, which is sad, because I was a pretty strong believer in the beginning.
Now I think the devs just care about the "core" players (who don't give a damn about lore) instead of the spirit of BattleTech/Mechwarrior.
And in devs defense, of course they're going to listen to the gamers who are supplying their paycheck, because disappointed "old school MechWarriors" won't be paying anymore.
"For Hire" means "for money" because you already have money.
#902
Posted 04 October 2015 - 09:07 AM
This reminds me of the ELO system which really does weight individual damage done as much as (or more than) winning and doesn't reward spotters. The same goes for CBills - capping is worth much less than damage in conquest mode.
The whole game is optimised for individualist pugs running metamechs.
#903
Posted 04 October 2015 - 09:20 AM
#904
Posted 06 October 2015 - 07:26 AM
#905
Posted 07 October 2015 - 12:20 AM
Docta Pain, on 06 October 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:
AFAIK There is recent Youtube footage of various changes being tested on the MWO Test Client.
I hope they find a less garish way of displaying everyone's grid location than the bright red numbers and letters above everyone's radar markers, kind of distracting to look at.
Edited by Drunken Skull, 07 October 2015 - 12:32 AM.
#906
Posted 09 October 2015 - 04:25 AM
These basic sensors and how they work, really needs to be set in stone before the ECM issues in the game are resolved. The more sensor combinations/options we have, the better off the game will be as a whole IMHO. Just my 2 cents.
#907
Posted 09 October 2015 - 01:38 PM
Praetor Knight, on 15 July 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:
IIRC, in table top Indirect Locks specifically require a TAG, or for your mech to be part of a C3, or C3i network. It's not a default LRM function anyway.
Avimimus, on 04 October 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:
Well, currently the game goes to whichever team lucks into the most ECM.
It's pretty obvious that ECM needs a nerf or two.
Edited by Arandmoor, 09 October 2015 - 01:41 PM.
#908
Posted 09 October 2015 - 02:24 PM
Arandmoor, on 09 October 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:
IIRC, in table top Indirect Locks specifically require a TAG, or for your mech to be part of a C3, or C3i network. It's not a default LRM function anyway.
Flat out wrong.
I've gone and dug up an old post that is relevant.
There was another with the exact ECM rules, but looks like that thread disappeared.
Guardian ("standard") ECM is only supposed to break the bonuses for NARC, Artemis, and C3/i, as well as block BAP's detection of hidden units.
As for LRMs...
Total Warfare, pg 111 said:
Units armed with LRM-type weapons may fire those missiles indirectly. Indirect fire allows a unit without a direct line of sight to a target to attack that target, though a friendly unit must have a valid line of sight to the target (this unit is referred to as the spotter). An attacker with a valid LOS to a target cannot make an LRM indirect fire attack, even if that attack would have a better to-hit modifier. Resolve LRM indirect fire attacks in the turn they are launched. The base to-hit number is the firing unit’s Gunnery Skill.
Use the following modifiers:
• Range modifier based on the range between the target and the firing unit, including minimum range modifiers;
• +1 for indirect fire;
• All standard modifiers for target movement;
• All standard modifiers for attacker movement and a modifier for the spotter’s movement (infantry have no attacker movement modifier for spotting);
• Terrain modifiers based on line of sight from the spotting unit; this includes the +1 modifier if partial cover exists between the spotting unit and the target. (Regardless of whether partial cover shields the target from either the spotting unit or the attacking unit, Damage Value groupings from LRM indirect fire always strike the target and not the partial cover, even if they hit a leg location; see Partial Cover, p. 102.)
Finally, if the spotting unit makes any attacks in the turn that it spots for another unit, apply a +1 modifier to all of the spotting unit’s attacks, as well as a +1 modifier to the LRM indirect fire attack. If the spotting unit makes no attacks, do not apply these additional modifiers. The spotter can spot for any number of attacking units to a single target, but it cannot spot for multiple targets.
C3 only affects targeting bonus/penalty.
Total Warfare, pg 131 said:
The C3 computer system can link up to twelve ’Mechs or vehicles together—utilizing a series of C3 Master and C3 Slaves—in a communications network that will share targeting information.
To make an attack using a C3 computer network, calculate the to-hit number using the range to the target from the networked unit nearest the target with line of sight. Use the firing unit’s modifiers for movement, terrain effects, minimum range and so on. A weapon attack using a C3 network must conform to standard LOS restrictions and cannot fire beyond its maximum range, though a well-placed lancemate may allow the firing unit to use his weapon’s short-range to-hit number at long range. The C3 network itself has no maximum range, but only units actually on the playing area can benefit from the network, and the C3 Master (or C3 Masters if using a company-sized network) must be on the playing area.
TAG: The C3 Master (but not the C3 Slaves) exactly duplicates the function of target acquisition gear (see TAG; p. 142).
LRM Indirect Fire: C3-equipped units spotting targets for or launching an LRM indirect fire attack use the LRM Indirect Fire rules (see p. 111), and gain no benefit from a C3 network.
Minimum Ranges: Minimum range is always determined from the attacking unit to the target.
Variable Damage Weapons: The range, to determine the Damage Value of a Variable Damage Weapon, is always determined from the attacking unit to the target.
Stealth Armor: Armor that inflicts range modifiers against attacking units does not confuse a C3 network. While such additional range modifiers apply to the nearest attacking unit, they do not apply to any other units using the network to attack. However, some such systems (notably the Stealth Armor System, p. 142) include their own ECM system; in this case, an attacking unit must be outside the effective range of the ECM mounted on the target unit, or the attacker gets cut off from the network.
Narc:
Total Warfare, pg 138-139 said:
If a Narc missile beacon attack hits, the Narc pod is attached to the target unit; the target’s player should still roll a hit location to determine exactly where the pod attaches. If that location is destroyed during any subsequent turn, the pod is also destroyed and its effects are lost during the end of the phase in which the location was destroyed.
In all following combat phases, any unit attacking with Narc-equipped missiles adds +2 to the result of the roll on the Cluster Hits Table. This modifier remains in effect for the targeted unit throughout the rest of the battle.
Other Narc pods attached to a target have no additional effect. Other Narc beacons in the target hex do not confuse Narc-guided missiles. The Narc system can be used to aid narc-equipped SRM and LRM missile attacks, but does not affect attacks made with special munitions or launchers.
Critical Hits: Exploding Narc ammo causes 2 points of damage per pod.
Buildings: Narc pods cannot be fired into or inside buildings.
ECM: Narc-guided missiles function like conventional missiles if the narc pod they are homing in on is within the “bubble” of an active enemy ECM suite; they do not receive the +2 modifier when rolling on the Cluster Hits Table (See ECM Suite, p. 134).
Indirect LRM Fire: Once a Narc pod is attached to a target, all Narc-equipped missiles may be fired indirectly at a target without a spotter; all other standard modifiers for Indirect LRM fire apply (see p. 111). In addition, if used in this manner, the Narc-equipped missiles lose their +2 modifier to the roll result on the Cluster Hits Table.
Infantry: A Narc missile beacon cannot be used to attack infantry.
TL;DR: C3 gives no benefit, and is not required. Narc as implemented is pretty much how it is supposed to be.
Also, TAG is for designating artillery targets. Specifically, Arrow IV homing artillery missiles. The only LRMs it works with are Semi-Guided, which only show up in 3057.
#909
Posted 09 October 2015 - 02:25 PM
Arandmoor, on 09 October 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:
Sorry, but you misremember. Indirect fire is a standard LRM function and doesn't require anything but another unit with LoS:
(Total Warfare, p.111)
That's all the rules and restrictions there are for indirect LRM fire.
Another thing you're misremembering is what TAG was for; it was solely a system for guiding Arrow IV artillery missiles and had nothing at all to do with LRMs until the advent of Semi-Guided LRMs in 3057:
(Tech Manual, p.238)
Finally then, C3 and C3i; it was a system that allowed you to fire at a target with someone else's range modifiers (preferably someone that was closer than you), it had nothing at all to do with LRMs - in fact, the rules specifically state that indirect LRM fire gains no benefit from a C3 network:
(Total Warfare, p.131)
So all in all, you've got your facts a bit mixed up.
Edit: Ninja'd by Lugin... Ah well, might as well set the record straight about what Guardian ECM does according to TT rules:
(Total Warfare, p.134)
That's ALL it does - remove the bonuses from BAP, Artemis, Narc, and C3. Nothing more. None of this "block everything and hard-counter LRMs" malarkey, that's solely a PGI invention.
Edited by stjobe, 09 October 2015 - 02:29 PM.
#910
Posted 09 October 2015 - 05:18 PM
stjobe, on 09 October 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:
Prolly. It's been a long time since I played table top, and there's a lot of rules to remember.
stjobe, on 09 October 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:
So, basically, ECM is way, way, way more powerful in MWO than it should be.
#911
Posted 09 October 2015 - 08:14 PM
You don't need that drastic an overhaul to have sensible ECM, just divorce target acquisition from missile locks by;
1) Allow missiles (both LRMs and streaks) to acquire target locks (not target information!) if they have personal LOS into the target. Sharing the lock with teammates that have LOS themselves is negotiable.
2) Don't allow a mech to fire indirectly if there is an ECM bubble between them and the spotter and/or one of them is inside the bubble itself.
These things combined allow for GECM to fulfill it role as an EWAR suite without turning the radius around the ECM mech into a black hole for target locks AND preventing the return of the LRMageddon by still letting them shield their teammates from indirect fire.
On a less direct note. ECM should be about protecting the team and not just yourself, if you're scared of being locked on to just switch to passive sensors (which should double as radio silence, so players can't just coast on their teammates target locks).
Edited by Ultra-Laser, 09 October 2015 - 08:20 PM.
#912
Posted 10 October 2015 - 12:16 AM
Ultra-Laser, on 09 October 2015 - 08:14 PM, said:
Ultra-Laser, on 09 October 2015 - 08:14 PM, said:
You don't see a contradiction between these two statements? ECM needs to stop blocking LRMs, period. If that means we risk LRMageddon IV, then it also means the LRM code needs to finally be revisited. Having ECM be a substitute for good LRM code is ridiculous.
We have BAP, Artemis, and Narc. We even have TAG that helps with acquisition. So why not have ECM just be what it should be - a piece of gear that stops those things from giving bonuses?
#913
Posted 19 October 2015 - 05:54 PM
All I do know is: This is a free game and the guys/gals have put ALOT of hard work into it and are continuing to do so. Im all for bringing balance to the game - and I will continue to pay to support it - but I refuse to b***h about the path/changes that imperfect people have lovingly taken toward MWO perfection.
#914
Posted 22 December 2015 - 08:22 AM
The ECM range is fine, problem is that the clans have a meta (or near meta) ecm in both light and heavy mech chassis so you see several in each CW drop. That means that clans are still LRM immune (for the most part) in CW whereas IS is substantially less so. Its something that you need to look at. As far as pub queue is concerned -- I think BAP should be decreased a little bit.
#915
Posted 22 December 2015 - 08:55 AM
It can still be used like before, but there is not total coverage from one ECM mech for an entire team. Now you need three ECM mechs to cover the team. So your team can get some targeting on one or more mechs and allows for more situation awareness due to the mechs that are not covered by ECM now compared to before.
One thing I do notice when using Artemis, there are no bonuses to lock on time with an ECM mech or one that is covered. I have not tested this after an ECM mech is hit with a PPC. It is part of lore in that regards, but will PPC's allow Artemis to work in an ECM bubble?
#916
Posted 22 December 2015 - 01:08 PM
#917
Posted 22 December 2015 - 03:56 PM
Norman Kosh, on 15 July 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:
And so are the lrm boats...if you listen real hard you can hear the saliva globules hitting the floor.
#918
Posted 22 December 2015 - 04:50 PM
#919
Posted 22 December 2015 - 10:39 PM
Having ECM or BAP doesn't make a role, and it hardly adds information. If you want roles, you need to add some kind of bonus for jobs to where the pay and mission rewards justify the risk.
This tier rating is a prime example. The only thing that really matters is how many people I kill, and if we win. If I do 200-400 damage (which is a lot in a curbstomp), I'm still demoted. There's no reward in that system to scout, or to flank, or do anything other than herd and try to steal kills.
This is why you don't see coordinated fire - a lot of people have figured out the direct correlation between k/d and mission rewards. You can't have "role and information warfare" in a game that is ultimately about getting the biggest kill score.
Edited by Vermaxx, 22 December 2015 - 10:40 PM.
#920
Posted 22 December 2015 - 10:44 PM
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