60 replies to this topic

[TMan Sennet]

Can you please support independent aiming of the target reticle, separate from torso movement?

In past versions, the targeting reticle was by default fixed at screen center; aiming was done by steering and torso twist. HOWEVER, MW3 had an option for unlocking the targeting reticle, allowing it to float anywhere in the field of view.

Although the controls were more complex (mouse to move reticle, keys to twist torso left/right for example), the benefit to those who learned it was an extra few degrees of firing arc after the torso twist hit its limit. That seems a fair reward for extra pilot effort in what is supposed to be a simulation.

Thanks for your consideration!

[Buck Rogers]

The reticle could move independent of torso twist for arm mounted weapons...

However, as I stated in another thread, I believe that because a Hunchbacks AC-20 is embedded in its torso, it should have to bring that weapon to bear on its enemies by torso twisting/pivoting/bending over. This is supported by canon artwork of the mech even.

---Buck.

[CycKath]

buck rogers, on 31 October 2011 - 10:00 PM, said:

The reticle could move independent of torso twist for arm mounted weapons...

However, as I stated in another thread, I believe that because a Hunchbacks AC-20 is embedded in its torso, it should have to bring that weapon to bear on its enemies by torso twisting/pivoting/bending over. This is supported by canon artwork of the mech even.

---Buck.

True, but most Hunchback's also have arm-based lasers. Unless there is going to be multiple reticles for each separate weapon/separate placement, a single generic covering them all is most likely.

[Ilfi]

I believe the way it was done previously was that torso-mounted weaponry could not be aimed via the unlocked reticule, but arm-mounted weapon could. The trade-off was, of course, that arm-mounted weapons were easier to blow off and destroy.

I am not against the addition of the unlocked reticule. It felt a bit unwieldy and clunky to me back when MW3 was the newest entry in the franchise since you couldn't control the reticule and the torso twist at the same time, but I'm sure they could find some sort of workaround to make that work.

If they can do it, they should.

[CyBerkut]

It's pixels and code... it can be done if they want to do it.

If it is handled properly, doesn't mess up the gameplay / balance, is rational in light of the mech's construction ( referencing the previously mentioned hunchback issues ), and fits into the BT universe well enough... it sounds good to me. ( I'm not particularly well versed on BT, so I'm not as, ahem, fanatical about BT compliance as some. )

I seem to recall that StarSiege had unlocked reticles, but that it was needed there due to no torso twist. I could be wrong on that... it's been a looong time since I played that.

[omegaclawe]

I think AT1:BT does a decent job with this. You can aim pure torso (and have to, with some weapons), but also has the ability to unlock the reticle. I can't remember if it added the torso twisting after it went near the edge of the screen, though.

[Darklord]

Yes we need crazy crosshairs

DL

[Hallstatt]

The best way to implement this would assign colors to each weapon/reticule. So your AC-10 (red) in the torso have a red reticule at the center of the screen, but your Medium Laser (blue) attached to your arm would have a blue reticule that could move within certain limits (upgradeable?*) of the center of your screen.

* This would represent better joints for your 'Mech, not (necessarily) a more skilled pilot.

[Daneiel]

I think that even the torso must have some tolerance of free targeting , if i don't make mistake you can see that in the modern tanks you turn your turret to the target but the precise aiming become with the gun , so what i propose - the arms and missiles must have free targeting at all of your screen , but when some of the arms is blocked it become inactive to fire , the torso weapons must have a tolerance not more then 20 degree (depends from the weapon big weapons like AC-20 , Gauss rifle must have less aiming angle then the small ones like MGs and some lasers ).

Edited by daneiel varna, 01 November 2011 - 11:43 AM.

[The Maestro]

Why not just have it be free or locked, and in free mode you have the option to make it so when the reticule hits the border the torso just starts to twist?

[ethnic minority]

I'd say make only arm weapons and non-fixed weapons free reticle. Other weapons such as the atlas' AC20 or the Hunchback's AC20 should be locked to the torso. Free reticle is not challenging at all, and makes aiming easier, as players do not have to deal with torso speed and can pull off high-sensitivity snap shots with ease. Having weapons bound to the (slower) torso is more challenging and immersive, and different mechs have different torso twist speeds (and some mechs have none at all, like the blackhawk). Graphics wise, free reticle also looks ugly for anything that isn't on an free-rotating arm - how awkward would it be to see a shot coming out of the mech that wasn't parallel with a torso-fixed gunbarrel? MW3 had a lot of this.

For me, this is one of the few things I didn't like about MW3 - it's just too easy to aim! I barely used torso twist in that game as a result.

[Yeach]

fenixstryk, on 31 October 2011 - 10:30 PM, said:

I am not against the addition of the unlocked reticule. It felt a bit unwieldy and clunky to me back when MW3 was the newest entry in the franchise since you couldn't control the reticule and the torso twist at the same time, but I'm sure they could find some sort of workaround to make that work.

I seem to recall that you could. (torso twist and control the reticle)
In MW4, you could aim directly behind you with your arm weapon if you torso-twist 90deg and side-glanced. Very difficult to shoot at but doable.

Edited by Yeach, 01 November 2011 - 04:13 PM.

[TMan Sennet]

For the devs, a concrete example of how MW3 keymapped independent reticle aiming and torso twisting:

1) One key toggles the option for floating or fixed (center of screen) aiming reticle
2) If floating, mouse controls reticle movement around the screen. All weapons will fire on that point when triggered.
3) If reticle moves to any screen border, torso twist engages in that direction (left/right or up/down) at the rated torso twist speed.
4) Torso twist left/right, up/down can also be enabled via mapped keys (i.e. arrow pad on keyboard, or < > keys, etc.)
5) Side-glancing enabled by mapped keys to change view out of different cockpit window. Floating reticle aiming is still enabled, but some weapons (torso or opposite arm) cannot be triggered (become grayed out in weapons list).
6) Rear-glancing enabled by mapped key, floating reticle aiming enabled; torso weapons cannot be triggered*, but maybe arms can shoot backwards? (dev's option)

The above is easily handled by a joystick too: joystick X/Y controls floating reticle; joystick twist on Z axis twists torso; joystick hat button glances left/right/back.

*There was actually a bug in MW3 that allowed torso weapons to shoot backwards; I think one had to glance sideways first, then immediately glance backwards, but I digress.

[CyBerkut]

ethnic minority, on 01 November 2011 - 01:17 PM, said:

I'd say make only arm weapons and non-fixed weapons free reticle. Other weapons such as the atlas' AC20 or the Hunchback's AC20 should be locked to the torso. Free reticle is not challenging at all, and makes aiming easier, as players do not have to deal with torso speed and can pull off high-sensitivity snap shots with ease. Having weapons bound to the (slower) torso is more challenging and immersive, and different mechs have different torso twist speeds (and some mechs have none at all, like the blackhawk). Graphics wise, free reticle also looks ugly for anything that isn't on an free-rotating arm - how awkward would it be to see a shot coming out of the mech that wasn't parallel with a torso-fixed gunbarrel? MW3 had a lot of this.

For me, this is one of the few things I didn't like about MW3 - it's just too easy to aim! I barely used torso twist in that game as a result.

I'd agree that any free reticle setup would need to make sense in relation to how the weapons are mounted and pointed.

For the ones that can move freely enough in a given situation... how about it being able to follow the player's TrackIR input? (Basically, like the chin gun on an Apache follows where the gunner is looking.)

[Testien Surepath]

I think having a free reticle would actually make aiming a LOT easier with mouse controls. And i think this is a bad thing. Especially if the reticle can move at high speeds.

[CeeKay Boques]

I'll see your free reticule and raise you a reticule for each weapon.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Easy enough. You have a reticule indicator, and you have an actual aim point indicator for LA/RA/Torso weapons. Each tries to match up the the reticule at the limit of its rotation and speed. Makes more sense anyways since you're really designating targets more than steering the weapons directly in MW.

[CeeKay Boques]

TheRulesLawyer, on 15 November 2011 - 03:35 PM, said:

Easy enough. You have a reticule indicator, and you have an actual aim point indicator for LA/RA/Torso weapons. Each tries to match up the the reticule at the limit of its rotation and speed. Makes more sense anyways since you're really designating targets more than steering the weapons directly in MW.

Gosh can you imagine?

[Amechwarrior]

Unlocking the reticle has many, many good reasons that correlate with the fiction and good game-play mechanics. But you have one big problem. The control scheme.

This is a perfect control scheme for the mouse and keyboard. This is the death knell for joystick users, who the developers stated to support extensively and even linked threads to their mind blowing self made cockpits. Remeber the MW3 demo? The reticle was unlocked from the torso, when you moved the reticle over to the edge of the field of view, it moved the torso for you to keep your target in view. This was perfect, intuitive and allowed a much easier and natural flow of torso twisting, torso elevation and greater fields of fire. If you have ever played any of the Metroid Prime series, it works like that.

MW3 launched. What did you find... moving your mouse to the edge of the screen did not move your torso anymore. What happened? Look at MW4, they removed it entirely. Why?

Because this system gives such a disadvantage to the joystick player. Most common, non enthusiast joysticks have a crude 8-way hat-switch analogous to a bad D-pad on the joystick. This would never allow the kind of precision necessary to hit anything. The domination of key/mouse players over joystick users was too much and it was the stated reason the MW4 dev team took that function away.

You would need the hat switch to be like a console systems analogue stick, the cheapest joystick on newegg that may have that(description is vague) and costs $56 dollars, a sizable investment for a free game. Most joystick users are also running older models that do not have that and have no desire to buy a cheap $55 dollar model or spend the hundreds necessary for a full-kit setup. Even then, the accuracy difference between analogue sticks and mouse aiming are well known to gamers and developers so that is still an issue.

I would love to see unlocked arm weapons, but I am unsure if there is a way to do it without marginalizing joystick users. Anyone got ideas?

[CeeKay Boques]

Amechwarrior, on 15 November 2011 - 04:30 PM, said:

I would love to see unlocked arm weapons, but I am unsure if there is a way to do it without marginalizing joystick users. Anyone got ideas?

Shift- + Hat, and a slow reticule. Slow Reticule stinks though. Uh... so I hit Button 4, and now my joystick is my arm. I rease button 4, and it now controls my legs again. Or, I hit button 4, and my twist... hmm...

In my mind, I'm imagining left hand on the Jstick and right hand on the mouse. and that feels good. That's how I play MW4... so... if you JUST want a joystick, maybe you don't use the floating reticules, and set a fixed center point...