52 replies to this topic

[KodiakGW]

Solution: High Explosives (HE)

Click..BOOM!

Let the flames begin.

[DAYLEET]

I removed skirmish in solo and death balling is at an all time low.

[Trev Firestorm]

KodiakGW, on 16 July 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

Solution: High Explosives (HE)

Click..BOOM!

Let the flames begin.

This is what our ACs are, or didn't you notice that you are stripping armor (however that makes sense) rather then penetrating it :-p

[Kiiyor]

Evan20k, on 16 July 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

So how do you encourage people to spread out in a game like MWO and not run around in a deathball?

I've noticed this game has a huge lack of AoE weaponry aside from the consumables and honestly I think that carefully balanced AoE could help against deathball squads. This would encourage lances to function independantly of each other compared to what we have now. Lots of players want LRMs retooled anyway; I think this is actually a decent oppertunity to do so and solve another one of the game's problems at the same time.

It's the nature of the game.

With lower health games like COD and CS, you can sort of be a one man army. 1v1's can be over almost instantaneously. One burst from a decent weapon can take out two dudes, and that's before grenades come into the picture.

In MWO, any 1v1 situation is a far more drawn out affair, and even with large discrepancies in weight, the outcome is rarely a foregone conclusion. DireWolf vs FireStarter? Hmmm... YLW vs Warhawk? Still uncertain...

Until you add another player into the mix. Two mechs vs one mech will almost always run in favour of the more numerous, unless they're up against a particularly skilled player. Two mechs vs 3 mechs is the same. 6 mechs vs 3 mechs, the same.

It's all about safety in numbers. TTK is at that point where 1v1's are still sort of drawn out, but any sort of focus fire is almost immediately lethal. The only way to avoid focus fire is to either be in a target rich environment, or to be the ones focusing.

I see all sorts of forum topics and post match whine fests about the MM being screwed or whatever, but most fights usually boil down to numbers: who had more pointing at fewer first. If you roll in a deathball, you'll almost ALWAYS be guaranteed to have the upper edge in the initial firefight. If you remove 30 tonnes of armour from the enemy at the start of the match with the loss of 5 or 10 on your side, the match is probably over, and no-one has even died yet.

The only time I ever see splits working, is if the enemy encountered is particularly timid and can be held up by a small force, or the layout of the ground gives an absolute advantage to the split force. Otherwise, it's deathballs all the way.

How do you fix that? With our current game modes, I'm not sure you can. I think it's just a natural evolution of battle tactics. If you add AOE, it will simply enlarge the deathball by X%, or people will ignore the AOE damage entirely - because to apply AOE damage, i'm assuming you will still need LOS to your target, and if you can see a deathball, chances are the entire deathball can see you.

True objective based gameplay is the way to go. Removing the turrets on Assault was a godsend for this. People may hate that mode, but it's really the only way to get truly tactical battles - even moreso than conquest, which can still be won by deathballing. I've seen innumerable matches where split forces can win the day.

I think Assault needs to evolve. Perhaps multiple objectives on the one map. How about we bring back the turrets, but have to capture a point to power them up, and another to power the enemy turrets down? Or to capture another point to call in air support? Or to close the gates to a city you are defending? Or to call in a dropship?

As soon as you add objectives that are worth splitting your force for, you'll see more split force tactics.

[Thunder Child]

KodiakGW, on 16 July 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

Solution: High Explosives (HE)

Click..BOOM!

Let the flames begin.

I miss the High Explosive from MW4. Used to load up a Catapult with HE for giggles, and leap out of cover to hug enemy Assault mechs.

[Conan Librarian]

Kiiyor, on 16 July 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

As soon as you add objectives that are worth splitting your force for, you'll see more split force tactics.

This. Would fix not only deathballing but also might affect role warfare positively. And maybe give a purpose to fights... you know, the immersion thingy.

Edited by Groovy4life, 16 July 2015 - 03:39 PM.

[Dingo Battler]

Kiiyor, on 16 July 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

It's the nature of the game.

*SNIP*

Well said. Even if they introduce long toms, HE, etc. Deathballing has far more advantage than splitting up. For PUG drops, the team who deathballs will win over one who doesn't. How many times have you seen in matches, your deathball going up against only half their team after you put up a UAV, and know in your heart that you're going to win. I know I have. I also know I'll lose when the team spreads out.

The only time I've seen less deathballs is the first few days after turretless assault was released. After a few days, the deathball either rushes to the enemy's base en-masse, or they deathball in roughly the middle, where they can retreat to defend, while being in the fight to kill everything. Deathballs are that good.

The only way to make it disappear is to introduce solaris, where you have 1V1. Deathballing is the unavoidable side-effect of having a mech game, where you have TTK and armour.

[aniviron]

Alistair Winter, on 16 July 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

• 
  2- Move the lances from opposing teams closer to each other. Red Alpha lance needs to be closer to Blue Alpha lance, etc. This increases the chances of early engagements, and makes it harder to just turn your back on the enemy and run towards your friendly lances.

My only problem with this overall post is that this often leads to wildly lopsided engagements. It's already bad enough on maps like Caustic where you can spawn closer to the enemy than your teammates; it's not at all uncommon for the assault lance to get rushed by a quartet of firestarters and lose a mech or two before anyone can arrive to help. The same happens in reverse too- when the mediums spawn near a lance of heavies, it's all over for them.

[Rebas Kradd]

TTK is fine if it's 1vs1. It's the 12v12 that creates the problems.

Create a gamemode with a primary objective and multiple secondary objectives. Require all to be addressed for a team win, but place the primary objective at a randomly chosen cap point so that scouts have to find it. Make it more heavily fortified, a prime target for the heavier mechs.

That way you can get away with bigger maps, because assaults will be guaranteed an engagement despite having to walk further, while lighter units will be forced to scout.

[Alistair Winter]

aniviron, on 16 July 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

My only problem with this overall post is that this often leads to wildly lopsided engagements. It's already bad enough on maps like Caustic where you can spawn closer to the enemy than your teammates; it's not at all uncommon for the assault lance to get rushed by a quartet of firestarters and lose a mech or two before anyone can arrive to help. The same happens in reverse too- when the mediums spawn near a lance of heavies, it's all over for them.

I already talked about this in the next post, which I'm afraid is a wall of text. TL;DR version is: MM would figure out the weight of each lance and prevent 4 Firestarters from dropping next to 4 Stalker LRM boats.

And yeah, it sucks if one lance is instantly wiped out. But in a 4v4 engagement, it's going to take a little bit of time before one side wins. That's part of the point of smaller engagements, after all. There's less chance of a roflstomp and it's almost impossible to end up with a 12-0 roflstomp when all 3 lances on both teams are basically forced into a 4v4 engagement right off the bat.

[AEgg]

Alistair Winter, on 16 July 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

I already talked about this in the next post, which I'm afraid is a wall of text. TL;DR version is: MM would figure out the weight of each lance and prevent 4 Firestarters from dropping next to 4 Stalker LRM boats.

And yeah, it sucks if one lance is instantly wiped out. But in a 4v4 engagement, it's going to take a little bit of time before one side wins. That's part of the point of smaller engagements, after all. There's less chance of a roflstomp and it's almost impossible to end up with a 12-0 roflstomp when all 3 lances on both teams are basically forced into a 4v4 engagement right off the bat.

Well, the obvious answer to that is to just have 4v4, on current maps. The maps are big enough that you'd need to scout or else you'd just be wandering around blind the whole round.

Another alternative is 4v4v4v4v4v4, which could probably work, but is almost certainly too much work for PGI to implement.

[Viges]

Wait WHAT????

NASCAR FOR LIFE!!!!

(yea like literally, almost )

[Impyrium]

The current maps and game modes and maps encourage nothing but deathballing for one very simple reason.

There's no reason not to death ball.

Scouting is pointless when you can clearly see across a map from one side to another and it only means the difference between finding the enemy in the first thirty seconds or the first forty five seconds. Breaking into lances beyond light skirmishers is pointless because of the way a large group can focus fire a smaller group into ashes. Game modes encourage the destruction of the enemy team and nothing but and hence death ball is the most survivable way to play. Conquest sometimes encourages better play but let's be honest, it's still mostly a skirmish.

Combine the small maps and very bare bones game modes together and you can see the problem.

If this was my game, I'd do this:

• Consider developing game modes with objectives beyond 'death to enemy team'. Something like defend the convoy, or an asymmetrical assault mode with turrets. These are both game modes that could be added to the existing maps and would encourage more vibrant tactical thinking.
  
• If you really wanted to go far, redevelop the maps to be much larger. Maybe not LL scale for those that don't want something slow paced and tactical, but to a point where a death ball is no longer enough to cover enough of the map and so that individual groups or 'mechs can actually maneuver in a way they can avoid said death balls. I'd consider the new River City absolutely minimum in terms of scale and even then, without the slight fog you could sight across the entire map.
  
• Emphasize different roles for different 'mechs by developing certain abilities that you can focus a 'mech on... this would work both to increase role variety and add to 'mech simulation depth. I'm talking giving some 'mechs significantly enhanced ECM or sensors, increasing sensor stealth, perhaps adding the ability to crouch or brace and increasing range or view sight, a command console that gives sensor boosts to friendly 'mechs within a bubble... so much potential!

If this was really my game and I didn't have to worry about the fact most people seem to want Counter-Strike in robots, I'd do this:

• Increase 'mech structure by at least double, however, rework the damage model. Have various effects take place as your mech actually falls apart around you rather than just being cored and falling over. Your legs will slowly become less effective. Torso twist slows down. You can't twist as much anymore. Arms become slower and can't reach as far. Weapons loose range and effectiveness rather than just breaking. You're adding TTK while still having that significant consequence for running into the open or going rambo.

[WazOfOz]

death ball is OK for the focused fire it brings to a team, and seems to be the only sort of team work going on in a PUG match.

[Kiiyor]

Dingo Red, on 16 July 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

• Increase 'mech structure by at least double, however, rework the damage model. Have various effects take place as your mech actually falls apart around you rather than just being cored and falling over. Your legs will slowly become less effective. Torso twist slows down. You can't twist as much anymore. Arms become slower and can't reach as far. Weapons loose range and effectiveness rather than just breaking. You're adding TTK while still having that significant consequence for running into the open or going rambo.

YOU SPEAK-A-MY-LANGUAGE.

Now, the game revolves around removing armour, and then a killing shot. That's it. Weapon Crits are a lucky thing - it means you didn't die from something that would normally have killed you.

A fleshed out crit system would be awesome. Damaged actuators making you limp or locking arms, damaged gyros affecting accelleration cursor speed and accuracy (or knockdown chances), damaged engines lowering speed and causing heat spikes, damaged lasers having variable beam lengths and heat spikes....

Some of the best games I have had were when the last few mechs were mauled and only had a weapon or two each - the nail biting suspense and frantic maneuvering was actually extended enough to be truly suspenseful.

[Raggedyman]

Evan20k, on 16 July 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

So how do you encourage people to spread out in a game like MWO and not run around in a deathball?

Same as you do with any other behaviour in a video game:
At low levels of play it's by giving out XP and Cbills for playing in a certain manner.
At high levels of play it's by having the mechanics favour that kind of behaviour

[Joseph Mallan]

LordKnightFandragon, on 16 July 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

You encourage people to break up into smaller groups by making it viable. By lowering how much damage a single mech can output, so when you do break up into smaller groups you wont MELT upon first contact. So the deathball is not 100% absolutely needed to survive more then 2 seconds.

Secondly, add objectives that require you to break up the deathball.

It is rarely better to have smaller numbers than your enemy. And less individual Mech damage output would actually force teams to stay together more.

Those objectives would require larger maps, but would work.

[Erkki]

Also... The map could remember where enemies have been seen (with possibly different icons for different weight classes if the target info was gathered, or even so that only locked targets would be remembered). That would improve situational awareness of everyone, and when the location of enemy main body is known it'd make it much safer to try flank the enemy.

Maybe it would also stop people from chasing the lights or turn around even when someone sees the enemy only briefly.

Hey, there'd also some room to create new BAP mechanics to make it more useful.

Edited by Erkki, 17 July 2015 - 04:06 AM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

reloadible rocket launcher.

[Lugh]

Necromantion, on 16 July 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

Deathball is really only effective against pugs when youre a group or lesser skilled/organized groups.

Play at higher elo or with more competitive teams vs eachother and notice that split pushes and other strats are a lot more effective

Those tactics work in the PUG queue too when the PUGs don't all fold the moment they are pressed while the flank is happening.