99 replies to this topic

[The Basilisk]

Zaydin, on 03 August 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

The last three CW matches I did were pre-mades seal-clubbing pugs. So the people who deny it happens are bloody delusional.
-------------------------------------------------


I didn't see anyone denying that fact even if I won't calling it seal-clubbing since pugging people are completely free to stay in their PUG QUEUE.
Its more like a nuisance you can't get rid of.....for the units.

When you enter CW as a singleplayer you basicaly accept beeing either the sacrificial lamb for an oposing enemy or a gap filler for a incomplete premade group.

I just don't understand the constant whining about it.

Pugs whined and moaned and lamented and yammered until PGI split the queues in pure pug, little to med groups and twelve warriors premade groups. OK.

Saying a ragtag madeup of solo artists are disadvantaged to a coordinated and disciplined group of people is a bit like stating big masses are drawn together. Yea sure fire is hot, light is bright and water is wet.

Now comes CW which was announced to be a competitive strugle for dominance over worlds.
And gues what ?
Pugs are again crawling from their nice cozy pug queue and start wailing about getting their behinds handed when stepping into an terrain marked as COMPETITIVE TEAM PLAY.

What we simply need is more teams and less pugs.

Maybe this is an other symptome of the handygame age.
PPL loning but expecting to be successfull with it.

Edited by The Basilisk, 04 August 2015 - 02:03 AM.

[Heart of Storm]

So i did two PUG drops the other day, bunch of solo players on the IS side, both clan teams we played were likewise mainly solo players not in units.

First drop we did we rolled the clans hard, we were talking on the voip, we lost less than 20 mechs steamrolling them. After match stats showed about 5 players on our team did the majority of the damage/kills.

Second match was another counterattack by our IS team, teamwork wasnt as strong, we trickled into a prepared clan position and got utterly facerolled, again we had a couple of players carrying whilst everyone else scratched at paintwork.

Clan team was the same, two KCom guys getting 3k damage each.

Moral of the story - teamwork and individually competent players can stomp just as painfully as a 12man, the whole 'oh noes 12mans OP is a poor cover for bad players running bad mechs

[Rahul Roy]

To the two previous posters, I agree somewhat I just think that the call to arms is begging bad and solo players to get into these situations.

[PFC Carsten]

Saxie, on 27 July 2015 - 08:56 PM, said:

@OP, CW is definitely an organized section of the game. Come prepared. I mean being in a unit is not a requirement, we have in game voip now, so as long as someone takes charge and makes decent calls you'll always have a fighting chance.
[...]
The problem is people don't ask questions. They run out in CW with an Atlas with 2x Lrm 15's, an AC20, 2 large lasers, and a slow engine, then complain of the rofl stomp by a more coordinated group. Some of the builds are just bad, and I'm not sure if those pilots know its bad.

While I agree, that you should come prepared for CW as it is and I as well agree to the notion that communications are a vital part, there's more to it.

First, as you said yourself, bringing "a bad build" to CW does not really help you or your team. I agree, but many people saying CW is fine, it's all about joining a unit tell you that it has nothing to do with the equipment. That IMHO is blatantly not true.

Second, even if you have decent mechs and comms in PUG, your mechs most likely are not assorted and selected to complement each other, as it is the case with large pre-mades.

[PFC Carsten]

Deathlike, on 29 July 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

"Joining a unit" is NOT A REQUIREMENT. It is simply RECOMMENDED to improve the communication and the desire to get better at the game overall. That's all. Calling it the "problem" is not understanding the fundamental issues that CW has. So, please stop with that... because it's disingenuous at best to just blame it on units.

If I am not mistaken, I did not blame the units for the state of CW, but PGI. What I blame units (merely some of their members!) for is one thing and one thing only: To pretend everything's fine when you join a unit. Because that's one of the stereotypical answers you get whenever you try to make suggestions in order to improve CW. But that's far to short-sighted. And I want people using this kind of pseudo-argument to realize that.

I don't want to take CW away from units - quite the opposite. But many people seem to fire up a mental blockade as soon as CW is mentioned, as if someone wants to take away or butcher their holy cow. What I want is for CW to get a broader player base, from which units can recruit more members if they like so it's less waiting, less ghost drops and less unit vs. pug for everyone - since many unit members do not take much pride or fun out of seal-clubbing the daily dose of randomly assorted PUG-trial mechs - but more PUG vs. PUG and Unit vs. Unit due to larger player base.

But in order for the player base - and again: the recruitment pool for units - to grow, people need to like CW. Also and especially new people.

There could be some kind of learning mode for example, where some spots on planets queues are open for PUGs or lance-sized groups, while the deciding battles could be fought only by groups of 8+. OR, PUGs can only join a faction-wide qeue and not choose themselves where to fight - while units could do just that. We'd have less fragmented PUGs and quicker match-making or filling up ranks. These are just examples that came to mind while typing, there could be many more (and possible more sensible) things to do.

BUT, people need to be open minded for it (and not to repeat their join-a-unit-mantra) and there must be enough players in the pool. It all goes hand in hand.

[TWIAFU]

Orryx, on 02 August 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

I don't want to pub against premades
I don't want to premade against pubs
I don't want to wait 25minutes just to get into a match solo! Seriously, how does someone mess up matching making 25 minute wait time bad?

You know that CW is for Groups

You know CW is for Units.

You know solo in CW is there to fill out the 10-11man group.

You know solo play will be difficult and your time will be longer, because CW is for GROUP/UNIT play.

You know all this because they told us all before CW launched.

To accommodate solo, they gave them tools they asked for to make CW better for them, by finding, joining, and talking to groups they are joining. However, those tools are not used by solo for solo to make solo play better in the non-solo play focused part of the game.

So, you do not want to use any for the tools to make your gameplay better, you don't want to join a Unit or a Group to make your gameplay better. In the end, you do not want to do anything yourself to make your choices any better.

If you cannot or will not accept the choices you have made and refuse to do what is needed to get maximum joy out of a game mode you have chosen, knowing what that choice means, then this game mode is not for you.

I suggest to stick to solo queue were you can rolfstomp pugs and they can rolfstomp you as this is the only place where stomping is acceptable and the norm.

[TWIAFU]

Astrocanis, on 30 July 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

Those stats (and damned stats and ...) are completely immaterial to my experience. First drop: faced 228 10 man with a couple of others. Stomped. Less than 8 minutes and dropship camped. Second drop (a couple of weeks later - I needed time to recover my self-confidence - yes, I guess I'm fragile): faced MS 8 man with another 4. Stomped. They didn't dropship camp. They waited for us to try to leave the dropzone before farming us.

Those were my first and last two drops. So, while 1% of the community plays 12 mans (which is a laugh because a competitive 8 man is close enough for the most part), 100% of my drops were against large premades.

I was told on this forum that I'm pretty much not welcome. I took that to heart. Enjoy your CW. It's obviously not for me. I hope it's "for" enough others that the game doesn't die.

Sorry to hear organized and team play is not for you... You are not alone, so you will have many more just like you in the solo queue.

There you can rolfstomp pugs and they can rolfstomp you all day long.

But be careful, one side might be using, gasp, teamwork. They are easy to see, that is the side that just stomped you 12-0 while half your team is scattered across the map chasing rabbits.

[TWIAFU]

Zaydin, on 02 August 2015 - 10:43 PM, said:

The last three CW matches I did were pre-mades seal-clubbing pugs. So the people who deny it happens are bloody delusional.

Burden of proof.

You have it, so provide it.


Let's see those screenshots of Planetary Information showing the group makeup.



Unless you mean "seal-clubbing" by one side was working a a team while the other was 12 pugs not working as a team.

Your "seal-clubbing" happens in the solo and group queue too.

Thankfully, you to can learn to club seal by joining a Unit or a Group and play as a team! If you cannot do either one of those, use VOIP, LFG, Chats. Now, if you cannot/will not do anyone of those things either, then it is all your fault for being clubbed.

To club or not to club, that's is your choice, you know what to do, how to do it.

So do something about it. Step up or step away.

[Koshirou]

The Basilisk, on 04 August 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

Pugs are again crawling from their nice cozy pug queue and start wailing about getting their behinds handed when stepping into an terrain marked as COMPETITIVE TEAM PLAY.

Why, then, are solo players even allowed to participate in CW? They are not allowed to participate in the regular group queues either...

Of course, we know the answer: Because closing CW to solo players would further erode the already pathetic population levels and leave CW even more dysfunctional. Again, the problem with a game that is both a "beta" and a running, money-generating product: Once you've thrown poor features out there, you can't just un-throw them.

[PFC Carsten]

Koshirou, on 11 August 2015 - 05:38 AM, said:

Once you've thrown poor features out there, you can't just un-throw them.

But you can un-poor them. I guess that's what everybody in this subforum agrees on PGI should be doing.

[Koshirou]

PFC Carsten, on 11 August 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

But you can un-poor them. I guess that's what everybody in this subforum agrees on PGI should be doing.

The problem is that many - IMNSHO, almost all - features of CW are so poorly designed they need to be redone from scratch in order to make for a workable game. But thanks to the situation I mentioned above, PGI instead attempts to make do with small, incremental changes to what I would argue is an inherently flawed CW system.

[Kjudoon]

The yave burned out the populace with 3 ceasefires a day in a horrible mechanic.

They have demoralized their only source of growth by not realizing so few people really want or are able to participate in hard core mode.

The finite rewards are essentially paying you to play and once someone has them all leaves no reason to continue save for habit, addiction or being the beneficiary of the pro v pug equation.

The maps are bad.

There is no motivation to fight because there is no carry over/consequence for loss or victory.

This is the perfect storm of bad game development and now CW is doing its best Detroit impersonation.

At least there might be a chance Living Legends could come back once this fries.

[oldradagast]

I get such a laugh out of people claiming that anyone who's complaining about the idiotic seal-clubbing in CW is a "bad who doesn't want to play as part of a team." That's nothing but ignorance.

The reality is that CW is a screwed up, unbalanced format where, to compete, I as a player would have to go through a whole bunch of extra effort - buying and grinding only meta-mechs (that change every time Quirks change), sitting around waiting for a big enough team to show up, sitting around and waiting some more to get a game, etc. - for no extra reward. On top of that, I'll still be stuck clubbing seals half the time, which is boring and just discourages more people from playing. Becoming part of the problem is not the solution.

CW can drop dead for all I care. The only reason I want it changed isn't so I can "be a bad and play Rambo style," but because I'm tired of seeing scarce resources squandered on a currently worthless game mode. Fix it or kill it, but since PGI still seems convinced that it has a future, then they need to fix it. And the best way to do that off the bat is to find some way to end the stupid rolls and seal-clubbing matches since those are the top reason people stop playing... which leads to the other top reason - wait times are too long because nobody is left playing.

Edited by oldradagast, 12 August 2015 - 03:25 AM.

[oldradagast]

TWIAFU, on 11 August 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

Burden of proof.

You have it, so provide it.

Let's see those screenshots of Planetary Information showing the group makeup.



Unless you mean "seal-clubbing" by one side was working a a team while the other was 12 pugs not working as a team.

Your "seal-clubbing" happens in the solo and group queue too.

Thankfully, you to can learn to club seal by joining a Unit or a Group and play as a team! If you cannot do either one of those, use VOIP, LFG, Chats. Now, if you cannot/will not do anyone of those things either, then it is all your fault for being clubbed.

To club or not to club, that's is your choice, you know what to do, how to do it.

So do something about it. Step up or step away.

I love half-baked logic like this. Are you denying that seal-clubbing happens? Show me proof that it didn't happen - because we all know it does... Nothing like "internet logic."

Poster: "I saw a red sports car drive by"

Internet response: "No you didn't - photos or it didn't happen!"

Right... Sure... We all know seal clubbing happens. We all know CW is stupid enough to pit random PUG's against 12-mans. We all know that those games are pointless and miserable experiences. We also should all know that the vast majority of players do not have the time to waste becoming "MWO professionals" - for no real rewards - and that many players also don't need to wave their epeens around while clubbing seals.

People can whine "get gud or get rekted!" all they want, but they clearly aren't smart enough to realize the 3rd option - don't play. And that is where CW is right now. There's no reason to play it, and the best "defenders" of the current fiasco can't come up with anything more than denial of reality and trying to tempt people into becoming seal clubbers. What a joke.

[Vlad Ward]

Mismatched teams happen. They're just not caused by 12-mans.

All it takes is 3-4 decent players on one team to absolutely destroy 10-12 bads.

Hell, all it takes is 3-4 good players on one team to keep pace with a full 12-man of decent players.

Skill gaps are the problem. Not groups. Not game modes. Skill gaps.

"The more battlemech customization options you have available, the wider the chasm between the strong and the weak" - Voltaire

[TWIAFU]

oldradagast, on 12 August 2015 - 03:30 AM, said:

I love half-baked logic like this. Are you denying that seal-clubbing happens? Show me proof that it didn't happen - because we all know it does... Nothing like "internet logic."

When someone make claims that are in direct odd to what fact we are given, yes, he has burden of proof.

I have asked the same of the very people that say they are always dropping 12 solos vs 12man Unit.

Asked the same of the people that still claim they face 12man units 100% of the time.

All have ended in the very same thing;

NOTHING.

So, they have no proof. They do not want to show that they are full of BS and to have everyone realize they are liars.


Seal clubbing happens in solo queue - where is the drive to nerf solo pugs?
Seal clubbing happens in group queue - where is the need to nerf groups and pug groups?
Seal clubbing happens in CW - hell of a lot less here, but only focus is on CW and ONLY on 1% and not the 99% doing all the clubbing. Odd.....


Seal clubbing is happening because one side is not acting like a team while the other side is in all game modes.

So, again, how do you want to be nerf'd so you cannot farm, seal club, or mock other pugs?

Or are you telling us here that 99% pug rolfstomps, seal clubbing done by pugs to pugs is ok?

And the real issue is the 1% of Units doing it and they have to be stopped, but let the pugs club pugs. And continue to listen to them complain about pugs.

[PFC Carsten]

Koshirou, on 12 August 2015 - 12:44 AM, said:

The problem is that many - IMNSHO, almost all - features of CW are so poorly designed they need to be redone from scratch in order to make for a workable game. But thanks to the situation I mentioned above, PGI instead attempts to make do with small, incremental changes to what I would argue is an inherently flawed CW system.

I hope you are not completely right with that assessment. :|

[PFC Carsten]

Vlad Ward, on 12 August 2015 - 03:57 AM, said:

Mismatched teams happen. They're just not caused by 12-mans.

All it takes is 3-4 decent players on one team to absolutely destroy 10-12 bads.

Hell, all it takes is 3-4 good players on one team to keep pace with a full 12-man of decent players.

Skill gaps are the problem. Not groups. Not game modes. Skill gaps.

"The more battlemech customization options you have available, the wider the chasm between the strong and the weak" - Voltaire

There's truth in that. Of course skill gaps happen and even one really good player can make all the difference in the world. Happens as well in the solo queue. As long as that's not happening regularly, I guess, (most) people can live with it.

Your Voltaire-bit I'd comment so: Easy solution - make CW only available for stock 'mechs - no bells and whistles. Just skill and comms. Should level the playing field a fair bit because most 'mechs are actually balanced in themselves. The kind of balance you'd expect for their respective roles. Like a scout has ECM (but maybe not the big brute with low-slung arms). Even an LRM-boat has backup weapons for in a longer campaign you can easily run out of ammo when the enemy cuts off your supply lines. Or you deliberately do not equip an XL engine because you know that you're short on them and cannot readily repair or replace them. Things like that.

But of course, for that to happen, CW would have to evolve from the barely multiplayer-shmup we have adapted to enjoy kind of.

[Astrocanis]

TWIAFU, on 11 August 2015 - 04:13 AM, said:

Sorry to hear organized and team play is not for you... You are not alone, so you will have many more just like you in the solo queue.

There you can rolfstomp pugs and they can rolfstomp you all day long.

But be careful, one side might be using, gasp, teamwork. They are easy to see, that is the side that just stomped you 12-0 while half your team is scattered across the map chasing rabbits.

It's easy to simply dismiss and denigrate me. I acknowledge that. But your sarcasm isn't making either myself, or anyone else who finds themselves in my predicament, want to play CW. If you truly want CW to be a wasteland, keep putting others down. We do actually get it. And, in my case, I accede to your demands.

[Kjudoon]

Carsten. I do believe Koshirou is dead on target. It does not bode well for CW or Pgi.