165 replies to this topic

[White Bear 84]

Don't cap units, cap population. You going to play merc, first in best dressed. Not enough room? Send your mercs to another faction.

So PGI need to better define mercenaries and how large mercenary groups operate. Simples.

If there are 1,000 mercs and they are all in one faction CW is going to have a bad time..

If there are 1,000 mercs and they are distributed across factions, CW is going to have a much better time..

You don't need to cull units to create balance, just balance the player distribution. Some people might not like it, but thats life.

[Kjudoon]

Big units already have their workaround. Nothing will change in tbis. You will have the illusion of change because you see different names. They will still be dropping withe the same friends and same allies on the same teamspeak. Notbing will functionally change.

If you really want to change this you must address tbis economically. End individual awards to mercs Nd force them into a share systsm that is taxed by size and everyond gets an equal share. Therefore the larger the unit the harder the grind and fewer rewards. Simple economic law. Subsidize what you want more of. Tax what you want less of.

[LORD ORION]

The map would not be any dfferent if the MS groups used their out of game unit tags instead of MS.

[Wronka]

Havyek, on 20 July 2015 - 09:45 PM, said:

I play with the group, and get dropped vs. PUGs mostly and sometimes against an organized 8+ man team.
I play PUG and get dropped vs. PUGs mostly and sometimes against an organized 8+ man team.

Is your gripe with CW, groups, or the fact that your team won't use the LFG and/or VOIP tools that PGI has provided?

You wouldn't get dropped vs an 8+ man team in the solo queue for a PUG match... I am not sure I am understanding the first part of your post correctly?

My gripe is that I cannot play vs 12 other solo players in CW. And I do use in game VOIP, but come on now people never listen to some random person. All it takes is 1-2 guys to not follow the call and you instantly lose to the 12 man team that does listen and follow their orders. Which is the case with pre-made 12 man groups.

I have no problems with organized groups, I just wish not to be matched up versus them because its just plain unfair to your solo players more often than not.

[TWIAFU]

LORD ORION, on 21 July 2015 - 05:58 AM, said:

The map would not be any dfferent if the MS groups used their out of game unit tags instead of MS.

ONLY change to the map would be MS, MS1, MS2 instead of just MS.

That will solve all problems.

[TWIAFU]

Wronka, on 21 July 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

I have no problems with organized groups, I just wish not to be matched up versus them because its just plain unfair to your solo players more often than not.

Thankfully that happen 1%, or less. 99% of the time you face other PUG groups with possibly a solo player or two, just like your PUG team.

BTW, since we all know CW is primarily for Groups and Units and solo players are there to fill out the odd 11man, why does it have to be any more fair then that? Why does the Group/Unit centered portion of the game have to change to suit non-group and non-unit play? Don't we have areas for that now? Solo queue does not have to change to suit group play does it?

[Rahul Roy]

The group or unit centric game really should not allow a full strike team of solos to be assembled.

You're crazy if you think it happens 1% of the time. It happens constantly when IS players defend a planet under attack by clan and vice versa. Everything about the game is set up to make this happen.

The thing is if a full strike team of 12 was not allowed, there would almost definately be less matches there are now but what matches there were would be more even. It might also push teams to defend sometimes rather than always attack, knowing that 12 solos from across enemy factions will show up to defend.

[Thumper3]

Kjudoon, on 20 July 2015 - 11:11 PM, said:

Simple economic law. Subsidize what you want more of. Tax what you want less of.

Actually, that's not economics, that's government tyranny. Vices have been taxed heavily for decades, yet cigarettes are still a billion dollar industry. And subsidies only prop up unsustainable endeavors....and eventually they crash down anyway.

It's a fine issue to solve, Mercs need to have different rewards than Faction loyalists, but there still has to be SOME reward or why would anyone be a merc? I mean in real life many issues and forces drive that choice, in a game....it's just flipping a switch.

Basically, it's simple on the face of it.......loyalists need a reason to NEED a merc group, from there all the negotiating of price and rewards is between the faction needing the services and the units willing to take the job.

Big units will still be attractive as they can take more contracts, BUT......with repair and re-arm and logistics costs, nature will regulate the size and scope of units.

[vectorbased]

Im not voting in the poll cuz the options are silly but I do want to take the opportunity to express just how much CW sucks if you constantly end up fighting -MS- premade groups. This seems to happen in many other PVP games but with a higher frequency in MWO I think.

Saturday was horrible for me, ended up fighting against -MS- 4 times in a row. Im sure they had fun zerging everyone but I strongly doubt anyone on our team had fun.... that said wouldn't -MS- enjoy more challenging fights against similarly competent groups? Are there no Wolf Clans trying to counter them? I didn' get the impression that -MS- was very good, just reasonably well organized.

Edited by vectorbased, 21 July 2015 - 11:10 AM.

[Araevin Teshurr]

All units are player controlled, there are no NPC units, unlike eve that has Empire NPC factions that enforce the rules (for the most part).
MWO designers had limited vision when they started MWO, they did not think of it as an MMO, but instead like a grinding arena such as World of Tanks, both have an equally pointless CW element.

If this game were anything like Mechwarrior, there would be NPC controlled factions, they would call out their forces, and stomp MS into the ground for attempting to take House / Clan planets. Player Controlled units can not continue to run the entire map, or we will continue to see the mess we see today as indicated by the community replies.

Mechwarriors and their units are supposed to be 'part of' a House or Clan - not 'The House or Clan'
This is were MWO fell off the wagon, got run over by the horse cart behind them, and left in the ditch.

In order for MWO to succeed, they must change from players controlling the whole game, to players working with the dynamics of a much larger IS, House and Clan NPC controlled environment. With that, there would be more player buy in to the back story, news developments, timelines, and all the richness that the MW world has to offer.

Today, MWO is a 12 man moba, we are just waiting for shields and heal potions.

Edited by Araevin Teshurr, 21 July 2015 - 11:55 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Thumper3, on 21 July 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

Actually, that's not economics, that's government tyranny. Vices have been taxed heavily for decades, yet cigarettes are still a billion dollar industry. And subsidies only prop up unsustainable endeavors....and eventually they crash down anyway.

It's a fine issue to solve, Mercs need to have different rewards than Faction loyalists, but there still has to be SOME reward or why would anyone be a merc? I mean in real life many issues and forces drive that choice, in a game....it's just flipping a switch.

Basically, it's simple on the face of it.......loyalists need a reason to NEED a merc group, from there all the negotiating of price and rewards is between the faction needing the services and the units willing to take the job.

Big units will still be attractive as they can take more contracts, BUT......with repair and re-arm and logistics costs, nature will regulate the size and scope of units.

No, it's an economic principle that is most commonly exemplified through government tyranny based on the rate of return. If something reduces profit, there will be less of it. If something increases profit, there will be more of it.

The same principle is applicable here.

But you did prove my point even though there was a quibble about terminology.

If you give the greatest benefits to loyalist units, (individual and/or group) they will swell in size.

If there is no difference in rewards between Mercs and Loyalists, Mercs benefit by the most freedom and therefore will be the largest.

At least we agree that economics is the way to solve the problem, not 'tyrannical' arbitrary fiat like group size prohibition that will effectively do nothing.

[Stealth Fox]

You know.. at this point any more.. if I was Merc Star. I'd just swap contracts and try to shape the battlefield so the clan attack lanes.. look like a map wide.. well

Edited by Seph MacLeod, 21 July 2015 - 02:36 PM.

[Khereg]

vectorbased, on 21 July 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

Saturday was horrible for me, ended up fighting against -MS- 4 times in a row. Im sure they had fun zerging everyone but I strongly doubt anyone on our team had fun.... that said wouldn't -MS- enjoy more challenging fights against similarly competent groups? Are there no Wolf Clans trying to counter them? I didn' get the impression that -MS- was very good, just reasonably well organized.

As a member of -MS- it pains me to say that I don't think you're going to get a lot of sympathy here as we have spent more time in Wolf than any other faction. We only came over to the FRR last week and I see we're now in SJ for what I think is the first time since I've joined - maybe ever.

And no, we don't enjoy farming pugs. We spend a lot of time with every faction we join dropping with their units, discussing tactics and builds, and generally trying to raise the bar on everyone's performance. We hope that leads to better fights for everyone. I know I'm an open book when it comes to CW. I think there's several folks from a number of factions that would vouch that I'm pretty free with information whenever I'm in a group with them.

I personally am a huge friend to Wolf, having been a loyalist in SPQR before joining -MS-. I've spent a lot (and I mean a LOT) of time dropping with SWOL, CWI, and even CWDG since CW started. The feedback I get from those groups is they WANT us to leave Wolf now and again and attack (but not necessarily capture) Wolf planets so their members can measure their improvement against solid teams.

You're right, though, -MS- does not generally field top-tier competitive 12-mans in CW. We have far too many new and inexperienced members for that. A typical -MS- 12-man group will consist of 0 - 2 A-grade players, 0 - 3 B-team quality folks, 2 - 8 solid experienced players, and the rest new recruits with widely varying skill levels. KCom, 228, NS, BMMU, and several other units consistently give us tough fights when we encounter them. It may not be obvious, but we're actually on good terms with many other competitive units and actively seek to go to factions where they aren't so that we can queue up against them in CW. I'm pretty sure they do the same.

Anyway, good luck out there.

Seph MacLeod, on 21 July 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

You know.. at this point any more.. if I was Merc Star. I'd just swap contracts and try to shape the battlefield so the clan attack lanes.. look like a map wide.. well

I like where your (ahem) head's at, man.

Edited by Khereg, 21 July 2015 - 02:39 PM.

[Thumper3]

Kjudoon, on 21 July 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

No, it's an economic principle that is most commonly exemplified through government tyranny based on the rate of return. If something reduces profit, there will be less of it. If something increases profit, there will be more of it.

But taxes do NOT reduce profit, not directly. If I charge $5 for my product my profit is not affected if there is a $1 or a $2 tax on it, the taxes come out of the consumer's pockets, not mine. One could argue that taxes reduce sales and therefore profits......but again, taxes do very little to shape behaviors.

Subsidies do increase profits, but that does not result in MORE of something, because if people were BUYING the product in large amounts no subsidies would be needed.


And yes I agree economics is the key, but not in taxes or subsidies......we just need an economy period. LOL

[Benjamin Davion]

Honestly, here's the deal. The way MS works right now, capping the unit size won't change anything, they'll just split up into separate groups and keep operating as a giant zerg.

I honestly believe MS should split themselves up, go back to their constituent units, and stop operating as a single outfit. If the units that make up MercStar were scattered around and fighting each other from time to time instead of trying to manipulate the map CW would be a much more diverse place. But whatever, they can do what they want.

[Stealth Fox]

Khereg, on 21 July 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

I like where your (ahem) head's at, man.

Well what can I say, I spent the last few days being dicked over by MS pretty hard (pug drops, so there was that against me), I figured why not be a good jokester about it and just spread the love and let PGI know.

[TWIAFU]

Rahul Roy, on 21 July 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

The group or unit centric game really should not allow a full strike team of solos to be assembled.

You're crazy if you think it happens 1% of the time. It happens constantly when IS players defend a planet under attack by clan and vice versa. Everything about the game is set up to make this happen.

The thing is if a full strike team of 12 was not allowed, there would almost definately be less matches there are now but what matches there were would be more even. It might also push teams to defend sometimes rather than always attack, knowing that 12 solos from across enemy factions will show up to defend.

Well, first off learn the context of the 1%.

After that, then reply.

[Kin3ticX]

Benjamin Davion, on 21 July 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

I honestly believe MS should split themselves up, go back to their constituent units, and stop operating as a single outfit. If the units that make up MercStar were scattered around and fighting each other from time to time instead of trying to manipulate the map CW would be a much more diverse place. But whatever, they can do what they want.

I agree

[Kjudoon]

Thumper you are missing causality and splitting zemantic hairs. The principle is still sound.

[Kin3ticX]

vectorbased, on 21 July 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

wouldn't -MS- enjoy more challenging fights against similarly competent groups?

If there were more active units playing CW, the landscape would be much healthier. For instance, if all the pugs jumped right into units, i bet things would be different. Granted, some units are almost as bad as pugs, but all in all working through pitfalls together roughs out the edges faster and builds cohesion.

Lots of ways for a pug to hit a learning curve wall in CW without help.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 21 July 2015 - 05:12 PM.