68 replies to this topic

[Sir Wulfrick]

The truth, fortunate or unfortunate, is that while we have instant and perfect weapons convergence and a heat scale that positively encourages boating of large numbers of hot weapons, there will be FOTM builds, there will be no peace on the forum and there will be a constant inability to achieve parity between IS and clan mechs. Note parity, not balance, the two are different things. True balance would be nearly unachievable, but parity is perfectly possible. That is however an argument for another time.

The only viable solutions that do not rely on awkward, convoluted and ultimately ineffective band-**** such as the present quirks system are:

1) To totally overhaul the way in which the heat system works. As many have commented at length in innumerable threads on the subject, the heat system needs to include heat penalties.

2) Bring in some sort of cone-of-fire system dependant on factors such as heat, mech speed, carriage of T-comp and a number of other things.

The result? TTK would increase dramatically; mechs and weapon systems could be made useful that are now nearly obsolete; clan and IS mechs and weapons could be successfully be made equally useful yet different in function, the list of potential benefits is huge.

The only potentially significant down side would precisely be the removal of perfect aim leading to fire convergence. I can only imagine that a significant portion of the forum would be in open rebellion over this, though how much most players (who never visit this forum yet play the game avidly) would care is debatable. The additional difficulty of making new players understand why their weapons behave in this way could be compensated for by quality tutorials. It should also be noted that this concept is no no way unique to Mechwarrior / Battletech: loads of the most popular FPS games, principally military-themed ones, feature similar accuracy mechanisms.

The sooner PGI recognise that an overhaul of the heat system coupled with the removal of pinpoint accuracy & convergence are a good thing, the sooner their world gets better. Whether they have the ability to recognise this, and the courage to carry out the necessary changes, are a different matter entirely...

Edited by Sir Wulfrick, 22 July 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

>The result? TTK would increase dramatically

instantly making all the risky tactics and small lance combat, anything but deathball, even more obsolete

[Sir Wulfrick]

bad arcade kitty, on 21 July 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

>The result? TTK would increase dramatically

instantly making all the risky tactics and small lance combat, anything but deathball, even more obsolete

I don't follow I'm not trolling you, I'm genuinely interested in why you think that would happen.

[bad arcade kitty]

Sir Wulfrick, on 21 July 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

I don't follow I'm not trolling you, I'm genuinely interested in why you think that would happen.

significantly reduces reward for ambushes and flanking

http://mwomercs.com/...not-a-solution/

[Deathlike]

The only reason the laservomit "meta" is so dominant is because PPCs since the Paulconomist nerf on them were painful to use unless you had quirks.

At this point, there is some level of counterplay, but back when PPCs were the meta, there was very minimal counterplay due to other lasers being inferior (like IS Pulse Lasers).

It is what it is though, and PGI doesn't play their game all too well... at least on a consistent basis anyways.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Paigan, on 21 July 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

Conclusion: Laz0rz all the way. Blame stupid BT weapon balance.

Lets not forget double armor or Quirks that +armor or internal hit points... um... massive use of ECM jesus bubbles screwing LRM/Streaks... borked ERPPC's that don't do full 15 damage where they hit (and sometimes don't even f'ing register depending on how closely together you time shooting a mech)

In PGI land... Laz0rs have a long burn time (not so much IS, but that's a different debate) that they can do partial damage even if the original click misses (just use MSPAINT skills and shake the mouse back and forth) they never run out of ammo for those "CARRY HARDER" matches when you absolutely positively have to kill every last mech in the drop by yourself, and you never have to worry about random explosions blowing you up because someone critted your ammo where the rest of the 7+ extra tons are stored for chewing through magical plate mech armor.

Using ammo-based weaponry on either side of the fence is risky and not very rewarding unless you boat the hell out of something, and that's only if you have the tonnage to do it.

Think about it, but not too hard... what would be better in a match (TDM or CW), only having one AC5 with one ton of ammo, or its weight in medium lasers?

[Chuck Jager]

00ohDstruct, on 21 July 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

Think about it, but not too hard... what would be better in a match (TDM or CW), only having one AC5 with one ton of ammo, or its weight in medium lasers?

With clan I can easily fit 3-4 ermlas with guass or uac10 or srms or lrms if not more and still stay cool(ish) with a super fast heavy duty engine. I have even had a couple of extra tons and not enough space for 2 heatsinks and just added 2 more ermlas for extra punch. Burn time is not too bad on clan except for the erllas. Whatever is lost to spread damage is made up for in the range bonus. The 1 extra heat is not really an issue either with the extra range. Also the ermlas is a great pointer to use while charging the gauss.

[Sarlic]

Kristov Kerensky, on 21 July 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

As already pointed out, lasers are the most common weapon in TT, the medium laser, like the medium Mech, is the workhorse of the Inner Sphere, so why are you surprised and so against the most common weapon in TT being the most common weapon in MWO?

Well before the Clan UAC got adjusted it was far worse. Ofcourse people nad a good reason to boat; the ballistics were not very good at all.

The current balance is getting better, but it's nowere to the sweet spot yet. We do see far more different lasers and ballistics being used on both IS and Clans. But the gauss rifle and boating lasers still seems to glued stuck on the majority i see here.
Nothing wrong with that, but don't call the specialise b.s. on that. Some boaters are natural, others don't.
It's just going with the flow, like sheeps do and follow each others bottom just because it's a 'optimized' build. Look at the EBJ for example. Some builds shifted along.

I'm just hoping for a little change and frankly i don't care how many people i reach. Even if it's one, i'm happy.

Clydewinder, on 21 July 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

Lasers are best because everything else got nerfed to hell, not because lasers are best. Lasers used to be a joke when AC and PPCs were good.

See the patagraph above.

[H I A S]

Break down Laservomit:

Better JJ
Cooler and faster PPC
Remove Falldamage

[Phashe]

You sure as hell will not see streaks or LRMs in the next 6 months...

[Joseph Mallan]

SirNotlag, on 21 July 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

I wonder if Jacking up the Flamer so its actually useful would do anything in cutting down the laser meta?

30 dang years of flamers being... well flamers and folks think they can ever be made more.

[Lugh]

HiasRGB, on 22 July 2015 - 03:14 AM, said:

Break down Laservomit:

Better JJ (only assaults need just a TINY bit more love here)
Cooler and faster PPC (Nope)
Remove Falldamage (Nope)

There is a reason the stock builds on some mechs go 2 PPCs, 2 ML and 2SL and that reason is so that they can manage heat and still do 10+ damage per 'turn' i.e. firing cycle without overheating at all ranges. At long just fire the two PPCs, at Mid PPCs and ML and Mid short ML and SL.

Everyone here builds to ZOMG ONE BUTTON (maybe two buttons ) to rule them all simplicity builds, because they cannot manage too many groups in their heads.

[H I A S]

Lugh, on 22 July 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

There is a reason the stock builds on some mechs go 2 PPCs, 2 ML and 2SL and that reason is so that they can manage heat and still do 10+ damage per 'turn' i.e. firing cycle without overheating at all ranges. At long just fire the two PPCs, at Mid PPCs and ML and Mid short ML and SL.

Everyone here builds to ZOMG ONE BUTTON (maybe two buttons ) to rule them all simplicity builds, because they cannot manage too many groups in their heads.

Its because most Stockmechs are crap.

[Lily from animove]

you want flashy blinking lights stop being flashy and blinking so we can return into throwing metal balls and fuel accelerated stuff like prehsitoric humans??

THATS MADNESS.



and as long as heatscale allows soo many simultaneaus weaponfire it will never stop.

Edited by Lily from animove, 22 July 2015 - 05:36 AM.

[Aim64C]

Lugh, on 22 July 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

There is a reason the stock builds on some mechs go 2 PPCs, 2 ML and 2SL and that reason is so that they can manage heat and still do 10+ damage per 'turn' i.e. firing cycle without overheating at all ranges. At long just fire the two PPCs, at Mid PPCs and ML and Mid short ML and SL.

You'll notice there's no 'turn' in this game.

Quote

Everyone here builds to ZOMG ONE BUTTON (maybe two buttons ) to rule them all simplicity builds, because they cannot manage too many groups in their heads.

There are two reasons for this.

First, how many people have multi-button mice? I can kinda-sort use 4 buttons, but the third and fourth are in a weird place. I've got a zoom button tied to where I always have a zoom button (the scroll wheel button), and while I can bind the scroll wheel, itself, I've decided against using it as a weapon button because it's even more awkward than my other two buttons.

Second, any more than about three weapon groupings is just inefficient. The reason you divide up weapon groupings fall into range and function categories. You group and autocannon separately from a laser because the two are not likely to hit the same target under most conditions. You group a small laser separately from a large laser because you don't need the small lasers firing at something they can't deal damage against.

You can also group weapons by heat, but it's generally most efficient to manage your designed ranges by heat - or shift to a completely separate grouping system (such as left torso/right torso).

What matters most in MWO is that you are able to, when presented with a target, deal the most damage to it in the shortest amount of time possible before returning to cover.

Chances are, if you have more than 3 different weapon groups, then you have substantial amounts of tonnage tied up into weapons that, for one reason or another, can't be brought to bear in a single weapons group effectively. Which means you would be better off by swapping out the weapons bound to that later group for either more weapons that can fit into one of your existing groups, heatsinks, a larger engine, ammunition, armor, etc.

[Kmieciu]

Sarlic, on 21 July 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

Realising it is step 1.
Running it is step 2.
Now...make step 3 worthwhile.

I wonder how many vets i count running the same thing on the EU server.

Everything should -regardless of damage output- been improved. Including LRMs and Streaks.

Hoping to see more LRM and or Mixed up builds instead of the usual vomit builds.

I hope you change!

That would be all.

Thank you.

What? LRMs and Streaks are server side only, so lag or HSR has no affect on them.

Laser vomit, on the other hand is more dependent on latency than every other weapon.

With 140 ping the laser vomit was good enough for me, but not against small fast moving targets.

With 40 ping, I can finally put the damage on a fast mech's leg. Or core a Stormcrow.

Have you tried running the Hellbringer with 6xERML, ECM & 31 DHS?

IT HAS 91 HEAT CAPACITY.

With PPC and ACs you might miss.
With ERML it's almost impossible to miss.
You get 600 damage on a BAD game.
You can score 900+ damage on Caustic within 4-5 minutes of nascar around the caldera.

Laser vomit is so easy and effective, nothing else comes close.

Edited by Kmieciu, 22 July 2015 - 05:48 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sarlic, on 21 July 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

It's more of the currently ongoing balance. It's not stupid as per se, but i predict people are going to complain even more.

Aside from that tiny thing would love to see more variety.

We want to see more variety in what everyone else uses while we keep using what works though Sarlic. I drive Atlases, Specifically my Atlas-S. I will sometimes try a different Mech for a few matches but I always come back to my Go To ride. I don't think anyone here uses a Mech they don't like and popularity and effectiveness do correlate most of the time.

Then there is also the herd mind. If some people read "X" gets the job done! They go and do "X"! Ted Neugent refers to this as 'We the Sheeple".

Then there is also the folks who like how their ride looks... I am guilty of this with my Hellslinger. Bought specifically cause I love the way it looks. Thankfully it served me well.

Oh and as we are "supposed to be bottom feeding warriors for hire" using weapons with the least overhead is the way to go. Expendables are just money we throw at the opponents!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 July 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[Elizander]

Lasers have always been terrible for me due to HSR so I've been playing this game on ACs/SRMs/PPCs for quite some time now with little issue.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Sarlic, on 21 July 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:

Well before the Clan UAC got adjusted it was far worse. Ofcourse people nad a good reason to boat; the ballistics were not very good at all.

The current balance is getting better, but it's nowere to the sweet spot yet. We do see far more different lasers and ballistics being used on both IS and Clans. But the gauss rifle and boating lasers still seems to glued stuck on the majority i see here.
Nothing wrong with that, but don't call the specialise b.s. on that. Some boaters are natural, others don't.
It's just going with the flow, like sheeps do and follow each others bottom just because it's a 'optimized' build. Look at the EBJ for example. Some builds shifted along.

I'm just hoping for a little change and frankly i don't care how many people i reach. Even if it's one, i'm happy.



See the patagraph above.

I said lasers are the most commonly used weapon in TT, look at the loadouts of the Mechs from all the TROs, you'll see it yourself. Medium Mechs and Medium Lasers are the workhorses of the Inner Sphere, always have been, since the days of the Star League.

I personally prefer using Gauss and ERPPCs, those were my weapons of choice in TT when I could get hold of them. In all the MW titles to date, including the Crescent Hawk games, they were also my weapons of choice. They were my weapons of choice when MWO started up, I loved them in CB. I still use Gauss but I don't use a lot of ERPPCs or PPCs due to PGI nerfing the hell out of them, generally only use them on Mechs with quirks for their velocity, pointless at range otherwise, and they are supposed to be a long range weapon.

I like the Clan ballistics, always have, but they are actually worthwhile now. Thing is, I'm an IS player, I own Clan Mechs but usually only get them Mastered and park them, just don't use them much. IS ballistics are good, but with the double armor and internals, you need a lot more ammo than you should to do the job, so it's just a better plan to take lasers.

Lasers have always been the most common weapon in BattleTech, they've been the most common weapon in all the previous MW titles, so it's no surprise they are the most common weapon in MWO.

It's like complaining that the ocean is wet.

[Dimento Graven]

Lugh, on 21 July 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

FUSION reactors. So no. Heatscale penalties for being at 80+% heat like cooking off a heat sink or one internal crit per 3 second period you are there, would be perfect.

Hey, if it limiting the number of simultaneously fired weapons to two is good enough for the gauss, a mere 30 points of damage, SURELY we could limit ALL OTHER weapons to that same 30 point maximum as well?

After all, with tweaks+modules some 'mechs have laser ranges rivaling the range of gauss, and lasers ACTUALLY do start their damage "instantly" no 'leading the target' required, ARE NOT subject to ammo restrictions, DO NOT blow up if crit'd, and with only 'ghost heat' as a limitation of how many you can alpha at once, are actually THE preferred weapon on the battlefield now.