71 replies to this topic

[TheCharlatan]

Hello Mechwarriors,
Prepare for a long post. TLDR is below, but please read on.

I've noticed that recently PGI staff has been using the word "e-sports" very often, and that this word seems to summon some very harsh reactions in the community.
This seems to be caused by the fact that the word "e-sports" has various interpretations, and each person thinks of something completely different when they hear the word.

What i hope to do in this thread is to give the word "e-sports" a definition and to analize what it could mean for MWO as a whole, and what MWO needs to actually become an "e-sport".

So: what does "e-sports" mean?
The term "e-sports" is used to define a videogame that has the following characteristics:
1- has tourneys with actual money as a prize, and generate a revenue for the game developer (or whoever handles it's rights), since it gets a share of the prizes or gets paid to give the authorization to make the event, or stuff like that.
2- has an audience attending it. The bigger the audience, the better.

The first point is the one that PGI is probably aiming for: a functioning e-sports game generates lots of money.
More money for PGI means it can become bigger, and that means (unless someone derps out BAD, always a possibility) a better MWO for us.

However, without the second point (audience), there can be no first point (big events with $$$).
Without an audience, a big one, e-sports can not exist: it's the audience that calls in the sponsors that actually put up the $$$ for the tourney prizes and organization, and so the $$$ that PGI can make out of the tourney.

This brings out the real problem: the audience.
MWO is a niche game, with a low following (i belive that most of the people watching MWO streams are people that already play the game) if compared to bigger games like the Blizzard ones and such.

What is required to have a bigger audience?
Unlike what most people belive, balanced game mechanics and perfect hit-reg are not vital.
If you are watching a game that you do not understand completely, you won't notice most of these problems.
They ARE important, especially to the comp players that partecipate in the tourneys, but without an audience, those tourneys are worthless in the greater scheme of things.

What is required (IMO) is:
- A clear, comprensible game. This we do not have, as 12v12 with deathballs is a confusing, all over the place battle in which you often won't be able to understand what the hell is going on.
For example before i started playing the game, i watched this: it's an old video from a tourney during the pop-tart era, and i did not enjoy it very much, as i couldn't make out what was happening at the time. TBH, i still have difficulty to this day!
As you can see, "spectator mode" dosen't help very much, does it?
The game has changed since then, but i still have problems following the battle's flow in (for example) the NGNG streams, as the "main protagonist" is often far away from the action and all you can see is a flux of red and blue names scrolling on the edge of the screen ("Damn, 4 pilots just died! who knows what happend...").
4v4 and (especially) Solaris could really help make the game more accessible to a "new to MWO" public, making the game more followable by an audience.

-"Heroes". To have success, an e-sports needs people to get invested in a streamer or his/her team. People don't watch stuff if there are no emotions tied to it. People want to support their favorite "heroes" and will gladly watch their streams and tourneys.
To get this, PGI needs to support the MWO streamers, give them ways to expand their viewer base, and in this way, pave the way for an e-sport audience. Give them giveaways,put active streamers on the front page of the website and not on some discontinued "in MWO this week" page, stuff like this can really help people find and follow MWO streamers on Twitch.

-Promotion. I hate to write this, but the world is as it is. MWO is not promoted enough. Why should people go in search of MWO streamings if they do not even know the game exists?
We have a game that looks super cool, since if there is one thing that PGI has done right, it's the art.
Update the site, prepare an infrastructure for people wondering what is MWO, and point them to the streamers. A decent NPE could help a lot too.
Then put up some adds, and watch as the e-sport audience rises (hopefully).
The hard part is doing this without taking away too many resources from the game development.

To conclude, i think that MWO, problematic as it is, could really use e-sports as a way to bring the game forward, and create a new generation of BattleTech lovers like us.
Some steps are easier and require less resources, while others are very $$$ consuming in the short run, but could be a good investment.
What do you guys think?

And for the love of God, don't just answer "i don't want the twitch kids in my lawn.", you will just sound like an angry old man... i know most of you are exactly that, though

Thank you for your time reading this.

TLDR: e-sports means $$$ from tourneys for PGI. To get the $$$ MWO needs the audience, to get the audience we need a more comprehensible game-mode(s) and more focus on streamers and promotion of the game (without slowing down game development too much).

[zagibu]

A deathball is just not interesting to watch. Maybe the capture mode could work out. There has to be some kind of dynamic, shifting of powers, to make it interesting for viewers.

[Xetelian]

What kills me is the commentators.

"its 1-5 its getting to the point of no return, once you get to that 4-5 mech lead it's hard to come back"


Yeah, hard to come back...closer to impossible but flukes happen.

Edited by Xetelian, 23 July 2015 - 12:48 AM.

[JernauM]

I would guess that MWO needs to focus first on growing the player-base before we have the luxury of worrying about size of the fan-base.

[TheCharlatan]

JernauM, on 23 July 2015 - 12:47 AM, said:

I would guess that MWO needs to focus first on growing the player-base before we have the luxury of worrying about size of the fan-base.

The two are strictly bound. Most stream watchers are players of the games, and people that get invested in a streamed game will probably try it sooner or later if they haven't yet.

[Ph30nix]

PGI needs to implement ways to make deathballs a bad tactical descision. Untll they do that this game will never be anything worthwhile to watch because the matches will be over to fast and be mostly dependant on which team can focus fire the best.

Saddly with player mentality i think it will be very very hard for them to ever prevent deathballing.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

e-sports ? i guess in current circumstances it will be more.... leets.

[zagibu]

If I were PGI, I would just blatantly copy DotA and introduce a 5 vs 5 mode with AI units. Make the mechs be the durable heroes and lay out the map such that there are multiple forward bases with turrets that are impenetrable for the AI units, and have to be conquered with player effort.

It would also make light and medium mechs more viable, because mobility would be important in such a game mode. And weapons that do area DPS such as flamers, MGs and SRMs could work well against AI units.

Maybe they could even let mechs repair armor in the home base, although I know that would offend a lot of the lore fanatics. But it might be good for gameplay.

[Joseph Mallan]

TheCharlatan, on 23 July 2015 - 12:30 AM, said:

Hello Mechwarriors,
Prepare for a long post. TLDR is below, but please read on.

I've noticed that recently PGI staff has been using the word "e-sports" very often, and that this word seems to summon some very harsh reactions in the community.
This seems to be caused by the fact that the word "e-sports" has various interpretations, and each person thinks of something completely different when they hear the word.

What i hope to do in this thread is to give the word "e-sports" a definition and to analize what it could mean for MWO as a whole, and what MWO needs to actually become an "e-sport".

So: what does "e-sports" mean?
The term "e-sports" is used to define a videogame that has the following characteristics:
1- has tourneys with actual money as a prize, and generate a revenue for the game developer (or whoever handles it's rights), since it gets a share of the prizes or gets paid to give the authorization to make the event, or stuff like that.
2- has an audience attending it. The bigger the audience, the better.

The first point is the one that PGI is probably aiming for: a functioning e-sports game generates lots of money.
More money for PGI means it can become bigger, and that means (unless someone derps out BAD, always a possibility) a better MWO for us.

However, without the second point (audience), there can be no first point (big events with $$$).
Without an audience, a big one, e-sports can not exist: it's the audience that calls in the sponsors that actually put up the $$$ for the tourney prizes and organization, and so the $$$ that PGI can make out of the tourney.

This brings out the real problem: the audience.
MWO is a niche game, with a low following (i belive that most of the people watching MWO streams are people that already play the game) if compared to bigger games like the Blizzard ones and such.

What is required to have a bigger audience?
Unlike what most people belive, balanced game mechanics and perfect hit-reg are not vital.
If you are watching a game that you do not understand completely, you won't notice most of these problems.
They ARE important, especially to the comp players that partecipate in the tourneys, but without an audience, those tourneys are worthless in the greater scheme of things.

What is required (IMO) is:
- A clear, comprensible game. This we do not have, as 12v12 with deathballs is a confusing, all over the place battle in which you often won't be able to understand what the hell is going on.
For example before i started playing the game, i watched this: it's an old video from a tourney during the pop-tart era, and i did not enjoy it very much, as i couldn't make out what was happening at the time. TBH, i still have difficulty to this day!
As you can see, "spectator mode" dosen't help very much, does it?
The game has changed since then, but i still have problems following the battle's flow in (for example) the NGNG streams, as the "main protagonist" is often far away from the action and all you can see is a flux of red and blue names scrolling on the edge of the screen ("Damn, 4 pilots just died! who knows what happend...").
4v4 and (especially) Solaris could really help make the game more accessible to a "new to MWO" public, making the game more followable by an audience.

-"Heroes". To have success, an e-sports needs people to get invested in a streamer or his/her team. People don't watch stuff if there are no emotions tied to it. People want to support their favorite "heroes" and will gladly watch their streams and tourneys.
To get this, PGI needs to support the MWO streamers, give them ways to expand their viewer base, and in this way, pave the way for an e-sport audience. Give them giveaways,put active streamers on the front page of the website and not on some discontinued "in MWO this week" page, stuff like this can really help people find and follow MWO streamers on Twitch.

-Promotion. I hate to write this, but the world is as it is. MWO is not promoted enough. Why should people go in search of MWO streamings if they do not even know the game exists?
We have a game that looks super cool, since if there is one thing that PGI has done right, it's the art.
Update the site, prepare an infrastructure for people wondering what is MWO, and point them to the streamers. A decent NPE could help a lot too.
Then put up some adds, and watch as the e-sport audience rises (hopefully).
The hard part is doing this without taking away too many resources from the game development.

To conclude, i think that MWO, problematic as it is, could really use e-sports as a way to bring the game forward, and create a new generation of BattleTech lovers like us.
Some steps are easier and require less resources, while others are very $$$ consuming in the short run, but could be a good investment.
What do you guys think?

And for the love of God, don't just answer "i don't want the twitch kids in my lawn.", you will just sound like an angry old man... i know most of you are exactly that, though

Thank you for your time reading this.

TLDR: e-sports means $$$ from tourneys for PGI. To get the $$$ MWO needs the audience, to get the audience we need a more comprehensible game-mode(s) and more focus on streamers and promotion of the game (without slowing down game development too much).

Set this up for the Planet Solaris 7 and keep it there. Also have Sponsor emblems so the Mechs can look like NASCAR!

[JernauM]

TheCharlatan, on 23 July 2015 - 12:52 AM, said:

The two are strictly bound. Most stream watchers are players of the games, and people that get invested in a streamed game will probably try it sooner or later if they haven't yet.

I see your point, but I think there is a greater possibility of players becoming fans than of fans becoming players. In other words, player growth probably drives fan growth more strongly than fan growth drives player growth. Therefore, I think it makes sense to focus on growing the player-base, on the heels of which a larger fan-base can follow.

[TheCharlatan]

JernauM, on 23 July 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

I see your point, but I think there is a greater possibility of players becoming fans than of fans becoming players. In other words, player growth probably drives fan growth more strongly than fan growth drives player growth. Therefore, I think it makes sense to focus on growing the player-base, on the heels of which a larger fan-base can follow.

You are right : to grow the player base, we need to make it so that people not only hear about the game (which is encompassed in the OP) but we also need to make player retention stronger (because # of players that try a game is useless is only a small % keep playing).

Creating a better NPE comes to mind, but what else would you propose for that?

[Viges]

People watch Counter-Strike. I don't know how and why but they do. So I have no idea how this works (because I can't understand how anyone can watch smth like cs), but I think you need ranked games and ladders at least. And 12v12 is too many for this I think. And a good spectator mode.

[Sjorpha]

I make a distinction between e-sports as commercial events and e-sport focus as a design goal.

The first is about the actual reality of a game having reached the level where it is being used as a sport, with sponsors, professional players and so on. Starcraft, Counter Strike and Street Fighter level of hype.

The second is about designing your game to work well for competition, with good balance where all options in the game have a place in the metagame, good spectator tools and ranking support. And so on.

It's quite possible to achieve the second, to the benefit of competitively minded players in that game, without becoming an "e-sport" in the commercial sense.

I've played a few games competitively. None of them were commercial e-sports, but they were designed to be good competitive games. One example is Dominions 4, with far far less players than MWO it's still a superb competitive multiplayer game. Natural Selection 2 is an amazing competitive game, both much more complex and well balanced than MWO, it's certainly a "e-sport" in design and popular enough to stay alive, but not a "e-sport" in the sense of being a big thing commercially.

Or look at a game like Frozen synapse or Multiwinia, two other absolutely superb competitive games that everyone should try. No big sport events for them sadly, I would LOVE to watch a top tier Frozen synapse tournament!

I don't think MWO will become a commercially successful e-sport, but I have no actual problem with PGI looking at e-sports when thinking about their game design. The core traits of successful e-sport games are the same I'm looking to get in MWO, good balance, interesting strategical choices, high skill ceilings and evolving metagame.

Many people here seems to read their own choice of things they don't like into the word and just use it as a projection for raging, but most of those presumtions about what it means are just completely disconnected from reality.

Edited by Sjorpha, 23 July 2015 - 03:02 AM.

[JernauM]

TheCharlatan, on 23 July 2015 - 02:32 AM, said:

You are right : to grow the player base, we need to make it so that people not only hear about the game (which is encompassed in the OP) but we also need to make player retention stronger (because # of players that try a game is useless is only a small % keep playing).

Creating a better NPE comes to mind, but what else would you propose for that?

My opinion is that this games needs some kind of single-player campaign as a central element in the NPE. A single-player campaign would address two critical issues:

• Helping new players learn the game at a reasonable pace. New players need an opportunity to learn MWO's relatively complex mechanics gradually. They also need to try out new skills without getting stomped by experienced players. If the initial learning curve is too punishing, it will push new players to uninstall the game before they have had a chance to start enjoying it. In a single-player campaign, new players can be brought up to speed while facing only AI-driven enemies calibrated to offer an appropriate degree of challenge.
  
• Helping new players understand the complicated BattleTech universe. I make the assumption that most BattleTech fans and previous MechWarrior players are already aware of MWO and have at least tried it out. If this is true, then most, if not all, new players will have no idea what is going on in this world, and, importantly, no reason to care about what is going on. Unless we expect new players to read the novels, watch the cartoon, or replay the old MW games, there has to be some other way of bringing them on board with the lore. Interest in the lore will help new players forgive MWO's imperfections and keep them playing.

Edited by JernauM, 23 July 2015 - 03:08 AM.

[TheCharlatan]

Sjorpha, on 23 July 2015 - 02:57 AM, said:

*snip*

But what do you think PGI is aiming for?
"Commercial e-sport" or "competitive game"?
I was thinking of the former (it IS were the $$$ is at), but maybe i'm mistaken.

[Alan Davion]

Viges, on 23 July 2015 - 02:40 AM, said:

People watch Counter-Strike. I don't know how and why but they do. So I have no idea how this works (because I can't understand how anyone can watch smth like cs), but I think you need ranked games and ladders at least. And 12v12 is too many for this I think. And a good spectator mode.

I've seen some CS:GO videos by a couple people I follow, ImAnderZel from the MindCrack group of MineCraft players comes to mind. CS:GO is a much faster paced game than MWO from what I've seen.

Granted, you die pretty quickly in MWO when you get 2 or more mechs focusing fire on you, but that's not fast enough for the twitch-style gameplay shown in CS:GO.

And that right there is the big problem. BT/MW have always been slower paced games than games like CoD, BF and CS:GO.

Now, if we reduced current armor values back to their table-top values, it would make the game faster paced, but that opens up a whole other can of hate worms.

I really don't believe MWO will ever be e-sport material because it's just too niche a fan base. What needs to happen is more of the old BT/MW lore has to be introduced, in order to help people identify with one Clan or House over the others.

I dare say everyone currently on the forums already has their favorite/second favorite Clan/House, but people who know diddly-squat about Clan Wolf or House Kurita wouldn't have the faintest clue what to make of them if they came into MWO, say from Steam.

Now, Mass Effect is a good example here, as it's easy to pick up and you quickly get to know the lore behind the game, characters and factions. Granted it didn't have PvP multiplayer, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.

For MWO to even have a snowball's chance in hell of any e-sport coverage, it needs to have all the lore built into the game, and then have Solaris VII added in, with appropriate maps and game modes. 1v1 to start, all the way up to 6-8 man free-for-all death match.

Which, this is also where the lore comes in, but I think I've made that clear enough, I hope anyway.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

zagibu, on 23 July 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

A deathball is just not interesting to watch. Maybe the capture mode could work out. There has to be some kind of dynamic, shifting of powers, to make it interesting for viewers.

You obviously haven't seen any competitive MWO matches. I recommend you check some before posting. They are full of dynamic, shifting of powers and different tactical approaches.

Here's one from ~8 hours ago: http://www.twitch.tv...ill/b/679749092

Edited by ugrakarma, 23 July 2015 - 03:17 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

@OP: I think you've misunderstood what PGI is going for.

They know MWO is a niche game. Even for big tournaments, there's going to be limited amount of spectators. Limited amount of spectators means limited (or no) sponsors. No sponsors means no big prizes. I think PGI knows this. However, there are sports out there, physical sports, like historical fencing or whatever, with a dedicated niche group of athletes. They still have an active competitive scene, even though there are basically no spectators, no sponsors and no big prizes. The competition is still important to the sport, because it keeps people motivated and it keeps the sport alive.

PGI wants e-sports because they know a lot of the players want it. It's probably not going to generate any revenue, but it's going to help keep the game alive, in the same way that other games are kept alive by modding or other activities, even though there isn't necessarily any money in it.

Just look at how many people grinded CW matches just for the sake of claiming as many planets as possible for their unit. There's a very strong competitive nature among many MWO players. The biggest financial gain from e-sports is to keep those players interested, so they'll keep buying 50-100 dollar mech packs (!) once or twice a year for a game that's soon been around for 3 years.

That's my theory, anyway. I'd be very surprised (and delighted) if PGI actually went to the trouble of having big tournaments with big rewards and official broadcasts. Even though I fall firmly into the category of people who don't play competitively and have no interest in spending time spectating more than a couple of minutes per year.

EDIT: I did watch a tournament video casted by heimdelight and Homeless Bill once. Those guys did a very good job! So there's definitely good commentators out there.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 23 July 2015 - 07:15 AM.

[zagibu]

ugrakarma, on 23 July 2015 - 03:15 AM, said:

You obviously haven't seen any competitive MWO matches. I recommend you check some before posting. They are full of dynamic, shifting of powers and different tactical approaches.

Here's one from ~8 hours ago: http://www.twitch.tv...ill/b/679749092

I have watched a few of the MLMW matches, and I think Homeless Bill and the other dudes are doing a great thing, but still, it's just team deathmatch. Pretty boring.

[Sjorpha]

TheCharlatan, on 23 July 2015 - 03:03 AM, said:

But what do you think PGI is aiming for?
"Commercial e-sport" or "competitive game"?
I was thinking of the former (it IS were the $$$ is at), but maybe i'm mistaken.

I'm honestly not sure what they are trying to do.

But the fact is: you must actually make a good competitive game to have any chance at becoming a commercial e-sport.

All big e-sports are good competitive games, but not all good competitive games become e-sports. All you can really do is decide what kind of game you want to make and see what happens.

That is why Counter Strike is an e-sport and Call of Duty isn't, while both are big commercial products CS is a good competitive game and CoD is not. That is by design, there is no way CoD could become an e-sport, it doesn't have what it takes because it's designed as an annual cash grab without long time support and balancing.

So it doesn't really matter if PGI is aiming for commercial e-sports or not, there is no shortcut to get there anyways. The only way is to make a good competitive game, I hope they realise that. And if they do they are going to make MWO a good well balanced online game, that's all I care about, I don't give a **** if it also gets e-sport hype or not as long as it survives so I can play it.