749 replies to this topic

[RedDevil]

Bleary, on 25 July 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

Dudes need to hurry up and slap together a Project Phoenix II pack so I can shove my money down their throat.

Perhaps perform a money ***** on them?


EDIT:
"E nema" is a blocked word? That's a medical term 0.o

Edited by RedDevil, 25 July 2015 - 04:34 PM.

[Alan Davion]

So to try and answer my own question about whether this new Warhammer by CGL will be different enough to survive a possible onslaught by HG, let's take a look at the original, the 2009 Reboot version, and the new one by CGL.

First up we have the original here.

SgtMagor, on 24 July 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

The 2009 Reboot version. Not the best angle I'll admit, but it should work for the purposes of this post.



And finally, the released 3d renders from CGL, along with the cover of the upcoming Mercs manual, with art done by none other than Shimmering Sword.

CycKath, on 24 July 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

I'm not great with MS Paint or whatever, so I'll leave that up to someone who's got the time and the energy for it, and just go on via text.

Right off the bat, the Original/Destroid and the 2009 version share a lot of characteristics. The upright 6-box of missiles, and the entire upper body being the most obvious. There are some differences between the original and the 2009 version, the placement of the cockpit for instance, is much further forward than the original.

Now the render by CGL, already we can see considerable differences in the upper body alone. The side torsos and shoulders for instance look nothing like the original or the 2009 version. Where as the original and the 2009 version looked like they might still have the missile launchers that the Macross Destroid had under those side-torso panels.

There are of course hints and call-backs to the original version in the new CGL version, but it's a little more obvious that they don't have anything hidden underneath. The head of the CGL version certainly looks quite similar to the original, but only the overall shape really. There are considerable differences in the details. The waist-mounted weapons have also been enlarged and rearranged. The lasers look like lasers, and the machine guns have armored housings. The shoulders have been re-worked to extend the armor further outward, and the angle of the arms has been increased, pulling them out and away from the waist/hips.

Going from there, the legs of each different version are also considerably different from each other, but those really don't have that big an impact compared to the upper bodies and the weapons.

Going back up again, the arm cannons of the Original and the 2009 version look eerily similar, almost identical really. Where as the CGL version shows considerable differences where the cannons connect to the biceps.

Now, I dare say that, if you were to take the CGL cover art version and the anime version of these mechs, and show them to someone who doesn't know a thing about Battletech or Macross, I'd bet that, while they could obviously see the similarities between them, they'd probably look as different as an Apple does from an Orange.

Obviously I'm no art expert, but I'd put money down that there's at least a 35-45% difference between the original mech and the new CGL mech. If HG still somehow manages to squash this, I'll be bloody well amazed at the lengths they'll go to in order to strangle both Macross and Battletech/Mechwarrior.

[Sereglach]

You know, thinking about people's desires to see the MWO Project Phoenix mechs brought back to more unseen looks . . . I wonder, if everything works out and they do an "unseen" package, if they'd consider making special "Unseen" variants that have special geometry slapped on them to make the Project Phoenix mechs appear more like their unseen brethren. It'd almost be like the special geometry for the loyalty mechs, only we'd get special geometry for the Project Phoenix mechs. A more rounded off Locust, the "bubble cockpit" for the Battlemaster, etc.

There's 10 popular unseen IS mechs in all: Wasp, Stinger, Valkyrie, Phoenix Hawk, Rifleman, Crusader, Archer, Warhammer, Marauder, and Longbow. That's just a bit too much for a Clan Wave I package system, but we could certainly cover that with some reinforcements mechs available to any tier owner, just like the Phoenix package.

Now, for the package, you can do something like this:

Succession Wars Undying Warriors Package . . . (U) Mechs

-"Undying"/"Unseen" special geometry variant rewards of Project Phoenix mechs offered with select packages.
-Mech Placement is strictly hypothetical . . . please don't nit-pick them . . . I know everyone would want their personal favorites as easily accessed as possible.

List the chassis in tiers not unlike the Wave 1 Clan Mechs
Tier 1: Wasp (20t)
Tier 2: Phoenix Hawk (45t)
Tier 3: Archer (70t) - Locust "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 4: Marauder (75t) - Shadow Hawk "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 5: Valkyrie (30t) - Griffon "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 6: Rifleman (60t) - Wolverine "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 7: Warhammer (70t) - Thunderbolt "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 8: Longbow (85t) - Battlemaster "Unseen" (U) variant reward.

Reinforcements available with purchase of any tier of package
Tier 1: Stinger (20t)
Tier 2: Crusader (65t)

Price . . . $20 per tier, just like any other standard Battlemech (non Omni) pack.

Even if they don't do any special variants for the old Project Phoenix mechs, that'd still make a great package model for an "Unseen" mech pack.

My personal opinion/thoughts: I think the Project Phoenix mechs look awesome as is. I also think some of the mechs (like the Thunderbolt) would have a very difficult time getting special geometry that makes them appear more like their unseen brethren. I don't see it as being very doable, but I also don't see it as being utterly impossible. I had the thought of doing a mock-up package, so I went for it.

EDIT: Removed the "Option 1" from the package system, as I was originally trying to conceive multiple ways of assembling the package, but decided to can that as everyone would nit-pick mech placement to have their favorites the most easily accessible.

Edited by Sereglach, 25 July 2015 - 06:29 PM.

[Hawk819]

To tell the truth, I'm not holding my breath.

[Alan Davion]

Sereglach, on 25 July 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

You know, thinking about people's desires to see the MWO Project Phoenix mechs brought back to more unseen looks . . . I wonder, if everything works out and they do an "unseen" package, if they'd consider making special "Unseen" variants that have special geometry slapped on them to make the Project Phoenix mechs appear more like their unseen brethren. It'd almost be like the special geometry for the loyalty mechs, only we'd get special geometry for the Project Phoenix mechs. A more rounded off Locust, the "bubble cockpit" for the Battlemaster, etc.

There's 10 popular unseen IS mechs in all: Wasp, Stinger, Valkyrie, Phoenix Hawk, Rifleman, Crusader, Archer, Warhammer, Marauder, and Longbow. That's just a bit too much for a Clan Wave I package system, but we could certainly cover that with some reinforcements mechs available to any tier owner, just like the Phoenix package.

Now, for the package, you can do something like this:

Succession Wars Undying Warriors Package . . . (U) Mechs

-"Undying"/"Unseen" special geometry variant rewards of Project Phoenix mechs offered with select packages.
-Mech Placement is strictly hypothetical . . . please don't nit-pick them . . . I know everyone would want their personal favorites as easily accessed as possible.

Option 1 - List the chassis in tiers not unlike the Wave 1 Clan Mechs
Tier 1: Wasp (20t)
Tier 2: Phoenix Hawk (45t)
Tier 3: Archer (70t) - Locust "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 4: Marauder (75t) - Shadow Hawk "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 5: Valkyrie (30t) - Griffon "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 6: Rifleman (60t) - Wolverine "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 7: Warhammer (70t) - Thunderbolt "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 8: Longbow (85t) - Battlemaster "Unseen" (U) variant reward.

Reinforcements available with purchase of any tier of package
Tier 1: Stinger (20t)
Tier 2: Crusader (65t)

Price . . . $20 per tier, just like any other standard Battlemech (non Omni) pack.

Even if they don't do any special variants for the old Project Phoenix mechs, that'd still make a great package model for an "Unseen" mech pack.

My personal opinion/thoughts: I think the Project Phoenix mechs look awesome as is. I also think some of the mechs (like the Thunderbolt) would have a very difficult time getting special geometry that makes them appear more like their unseen brethren. I don't see it as being very doable, but I also don't see it as being utterly impossible. I had the thought of doing a mock-up package, so I went for it.

I like your approach there, but all these mechs were also part of the Phoenix program, and I really think there couldn't be a better label for these mechs which are, pretty much literally coming back from the dead, than to call them Phoenix (P) mechs.

[trajan331]

Make it so!!!!! I feel a 2nd Anniversary announcement

Edited by trajan331, 25 July 2015 - 06:13 PM.

[process]

One more rendering, in case it hasn't been posted already:

[Sereglach]

Alan Davion, on 25 July 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

I like your approach there, but all these mechs were also part of the Phoenix program, and I really think there couldn't be a better label for these mechs which are, pretty much literally coming back from the dead, than to call them Phoenix (P) mechs.

The only reason I didn't just call it a Phoenix II mega pack and make them (P) variants is because of the concept of attempting to satisfy some people's desires for more "unseen-esque" versions of the original Phoenix mechs. In that case, you need some designator that's not Phoenix (P) in order to separate the new special variants from the old ones; and thusly it'd need to fit the naming scheme of the theoretical package in question.

Otherwise (and in my own personal opinion, since I don't believe the unseen variants of Phoenix mechs is very possible), I'm all for making it the Phoneix II mega pack and having them be (P) variants.

[Throat Punch]

Sereglach, on 25 July 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

You know, thinking about people's desires to see the MWO Project Phoenix mechs brought back to more unseen looks . . . I wonder, if everything works out and they do an "unseen" package, if they'd consider making special "Unseen" variants that have special geometry slapped on them to make the Project Phoenix mechs appear more like their unseen brethren. It'd almost be like the special geometry for the loyalty mechs, only we'd get special geometry for the Project Phoenix mechs. A more rounded off Locust, the "bubble cockpit" for the Battlemaster, etc.

There's 10 popular unseen IS mechs in all: Wasp, Stinger, Valkyrie, Phoenix Hawk, Rifleman, Crusader, Archer, Warhammer, Marauder, and Longbow. That's just a bit too much for a Clan Wave I package system, but we could certainly cover that with some reinforcements mechs available to any tier owner, just like the Phoenix package.

Now, for the package, you can do something like this:

Succession Wars Undying Warriors Package . . . (U) Mechs

-"Undying"/"Unseen" special geometry variant rewards of Project Phoenix mechs offered with select packages.
-Mech Placement is strictly hypothetical . . . please don't nit-pick them . . . I know everyone would want their personal favorites as easily accessed as possible.

List the chassis in tiers not unlike the Wave 1 Clan Mechs
Tier 1: Wasp (20t)
Tier 2: Phoenix Hawk (45t)
Tier 3: Archer (70t) - Locust "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 4: Marauder (75t) - Shadow Hawk "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 5: Valkyrie (30t) - Griffon "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 6: Rifleman (60t) - Wolverine "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 7: Warhammer (70t) - Thunderbolt "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 8: Longbow (85t) - Battlemaster "Unseen" (U) variant reward.

Reinforcements available with purchase of any tier of package
Tier 1: Stinger (20t)
Tier 2: Crusader (65t)

Price . . . $20 per tier, just like any other standard Battlemech (non Omni) pack.

Even if they don't do any special variants for the old Project Phoenix mechs, that'd still make a great package model for an "Unseen" mech pack.

My personal opinion/thoughts: I think the Project Phoenix mechs look awesome as is. I also think some of the mechs (like the Thunderbolt) would have a very difficult time getting special geometry that makes them appear more like their unseen brethren. I don't see it as being very doable, but I also don't see it as being utterly impossible. I had the thought of doing a mock-up package, so I went for it.

EDIT: Removed the "Option 1" from the package system, as I was originally trying to conceive multiple ways of assembling the package, but decided to can that as everyone would nit-pick mech placement to have their favorites the most easily accessible.

[Steinar Bergstol]

Sereglach, on 25 July 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

The only reason I didn't just call it a Phoenix II mega pack and make them (P) variants is because of the concept of attempting to satisfy some people's desires for more "unseen-esque" versions of the original Phoenix mechs. In that case, you need some designator that's not Phoenix (P) in order to separate the new special variants from the old ones; and thusly it'd need to fit the naming scheme of the theoretical package in question.

Otherwise (and in my own personal opinion, since I don't believe the unseen variants of Phoenix mechs is very possible), I'm all for making it the Phoneix II mega pack and having them be (P) variants.

Which would make the PXH a Phoenix Phoenix Hawk.

[SmoothCriminal]

Surely it remains too dangerous from a legal perspective - a few lead miniatures is one thing but a software company is much more visible and at risk to legal action. I love the designs but I'd rather the game stays afloat

[Nightshade24]

You're telling me the Warhammer... Maurader... Rifleman... and Longbow can be added now?

BRB, going to the store for MW: O pack for these unseen mechs... and buying a new pair of pants, underwear, and keyboard... for reasons...

[Sereglach]

SmoothCriminal, on 25 July 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

Surely it remains too dangerous from a legal perspective - a few lead miniatures is one thing but a software company is much more visible and at risk to legal action. I love the designs but I'd rather the game stays afloat

"Visible" is a relative term, here. Harmony Gold has watched anything Battletech related like a hawk for the past several decades. In fact, Harmony Gold is more than a bit lawsuit happy over legal action against "Intellectual Property Infringements".

Also, it's not a "few lead miniatures". Catalyst would have several rules books for a TT game and Iron Wind Metals would have entire lines of miniature molds to worry about (those things aren't cheap). Between the two companies you're talking potentially tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars of merchandise in jeopardy if it were to blow up in their face.

However, that said, they've probably done their homework on how much they'd need to change the "reimaged unseens" to make them viable on the market and not have HG sue the crap out of Battletech . . . again. Thusly, if it pans out for Catalyst, then it opens new windows of opportunity for PGI to create those mechs in MWO.

[Sereglach]

Nightshade24, on 25 July 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

You're telling me the Warhammer... Maurader... Rifleman... and Longbow can be added now?

It's not a guarantee, yet. However, Russ has already been tweeted about it, and he seems to be getting in touch with Catalyst to see how things are going to be panning out. As stated already, if it's successful for Catalyst, then it could be successful for PGI.

Catalyst's recent announcement of "reimaging" the unseens in true unseen fashion opens up new opportunities, however, and that's what all the fuss is about.

[Nightshade24]

Sereglach, on 25 July 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

You know, thinking about people's desires to see the MWO Project Phoenix mechs brought back to more unseen looks . . . I wonder, if everything works out and they do an "unseen" package, if they'd consider making special "Unseen" variants that have special geometry slapped on them to make the Project Phoenix mechs appear more like their unseen brethren. It'd almost be like the special geometry for the loyalty mechs, only we'd get special geometry for the Project Phoenix mechs. A more rounded off Locust, the "bubble cockpit" for the Battlemaster, etc.

There's 10 popular unseen IS mechs in all: Wasp, Stinger, Valkyrie, Phoenix Hawk, Rifleman, Crusader, Archer, Warhammer, Marauder, and Longbow. That's just a bit too much for a Clan Wave I package system, but we could certainly cover that with some reinforcements mechs available to any tier owner, just like the Phoenix package.

Now, for the package, you can do something like this:

Succession Wars Undying Warriors Package . . . (U) Mechs

-"Undying"/"Unseen" special geometry variant rewards of Project Phoenix mechs offered with select packages.
-Mech Placement is strictly hypothetical . . . please don't nit-pick them . . . I know everyone would want their personal favorites as easily accessed as possible.

List the chassis in tiers not unlike the Wave 1 Clan Mechs
Tier 1: Wasp (20t)
Tier 2: Phoenix Hawk (45t)
Tier 3: Archer (70t) - Locust "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 4: Marauder (75t) - Shadow Hawk "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 5: Valkyrie (30t) - Griffon "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 6: Rifleman (60t) - Wolverine "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 7: Warhammer (70t) - Thunderbolt "Unseen" (U) variant reward.
Tier 8: Longbow (85t) - Battlemaster "Unseen" (U) variant reward.

Reinforcements available with purchase of any tier of package
Tier 1: Stinger (20t)
Tier 2: Crusader (65t)

Price . . . $20 per tier, just like any other standard Battlemech (non Omni) pack.

Even if they don't do any special variants for the old Project Phoenix mechs, that'd still make a great package model for an "Unseen" mech pack.

My personal opinion/thoughts: I think the Project Phoenix mechs look awesome as is. I also think some of the mechs (like the Thunderbolt) would have a very difficult time getting special geometry that makes them appear more like their unseen brethren. I don't see it as being very doable, but I also don't see it as being utterly impossible. I had the thought of doing a mock-up package, so I went for it.

EDIT: Removed the "Option 1" from the package system, as I was originally trying to conceive multiple ways of assembling the package, but decided to can that as everyone would nit-pick mech placement to have their favorites the most easily accessible.

I love you and hate you...

It isn't because my fave mech is to far to reach... but the fact this is 160 dollars that I can not resist all at once...

[Alan Davion]

Nightshade24, on 25 July 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

I love you and hate you...

It isn't because my fave mech is to far to reach... but the fact this is 160 dollars that I can not resist all at once...

That's actually $200 if you go for the reinforcement mechs there. Maybe if they dropped the price a bit for a collection like that. Say only $15 a tier. That would make the ultimate cost only $150. Not a huge difference mind you, but enough of a difference for some people.

[MechWarrior5152251]

It does not matter how much PGI "Tweeks" them. As long as they are called the same names as the licensed mechs it is likely HG will sue, and nothing you do can stop a law suit like that. Even if HG goes out of business whoever gets their IP might sue. It all depends on how hard headed they are and how deep their pockets are. At this point in our depressed economy copyright attorneys will line up all day long to file lawsuits at $150 an hour.

[Elizander]

MechWarrior5152251, on 25 July 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

It does not matter how much PGI "Tweeks" them. As long as they are called the same names as the licensed mechs it is likely HG will sue, and nothing you do can stop a law suit like that. Even if HG goes out of business whoever gets their IP might sue. It all depends on how hard headed they are and how deep their pockets are. At this point in our depressed economy copyright attorneys will line up all day long to file lawsuits at $150 an hour.

I already suggested naming them differently and using the excuse as an earlier prototype or something to release them with minimal fuss.

[Alan Davion]

MechWarrior5152251, on 25 July 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

It does not matter how much PGI "Tweeks" them. As long as they are called the same names as the licensed mechs it is likely HG will sue, and nothing you do can stop a law suit like that. Even if HG goes out of business whoever gets their IP might sue. It all depends on how hard headed they are and how deep their pockets are. At this point in our depressed economy copyright attorneys will line up all day long to file lawsuits at $150 an hour.

It is not the names, it is the art.

It's always been the art that has been the problem, especially with HG.

[Sereglach]

Nightshade24, on 25 July 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

I love you and hate you...

It isn't because my fave mech is to far to reach... but the fact this is 160 dollars that I can not resist all at once...

I know. There are a lot of mechs I'd want out of the package. I know I'd spring for as large as I could (within reason).

However, because of my play style and personal favorites, I think the only "musts" for me would be the Wasp, Phoenix Hawk, and Crusader. If those were all I could get, then I could live with that.