41 replies to this topic

[Nightshade24]

Clan nerfs < IS 'nerfs'
Clan tech > IS tech
Clan quirks < IS quirks.
Omnimech =/= battlemech
Clan Omnimechs > IS omnimechs
Clan ER PPC < IS ER PPC/ PPC

So many problems with the ballance, and the main problem is due to the fact that Clans are cursed and blessed with Omnimechs, while IS got battlemechs.

It's hard to ballance clan tech when you can't change your engine type or rating, location or use of ferro or endo or standard, or where those heatsinks should be.

Then how those equipment reflect the mech it is on. There's a difference between a nova and stormcrow. A Gargoyle and Timberwolf, etc...

I can tell you know that clan tech should and would peform differently on IIC's (battlemechs) then normal clan mechs. For eg some ideas would be clan battlemecsh would have SRM's and streaks go out in a stream. different ghost heat, different rules for Clan XL engine, etc...

I personally just wish we started off as battlemech and battlemech for both factions, and worked our way up from there... introducign the raptor aka IS light omnimech from 3052 could provide ballance statistical data... Just a vague idea on how omnimechs function...

however perspective is a bit skewed and different from the community... such as how some tech peform... ie


IS medium laser = Clan ER medium laser (common view of most clan pilots)
Clan ER medium laser = IS Large laser (common view of most IS pilots)
IS large laser = Clan ER large laser (common view of most clan pilots)
Clan ER large laser > IS large pulse laser.

Etc... IS see ER mediums as a large laser that's 1 ton, 1 slot, and cold.
Clans see ER mediums as hotter medium lasers with more range, slightly more damage for longer duration time, etc.

of course I am using a bit of a blank term for IS and Clan pilot views as mostly everyone are a bit more varied then that and isn't a true statement for all. But the point does go across... I am surprised PGI are still up... guess the main problem is not that clans are overall OP, or overall UP. but the fact there is huge spikes of what is and isn't, and what mechs are and are not.. PGI kinda needs a way to equalise the clan mechs first and balance clan mechs with other clan mechs Before balancing IS with clan mechs.

[Nightshade24]

Alek Ituin, on 25 July 2015 - 09:26 PM, said:

Nothing. Not a god damned thing.

People, as a rule, will never be happy with anything that isn't exactly as they want it. You'd even have people b*tching about balance if everything was exactly the same. You'd have people complaining about balance if the only weapons were Small Lasers, and the only Mechs were Locust 1E's!

At no point will you ever get people to STFU and be happy.

"That guy has 5 more ping then me and that is obviously an advantage!"
"F*ck off, I can't drive this thing and teleport because I got higher ping!"
"you know this is all his fault for having the colour red, red makes him superior #psychology"
"Maybe it is because you are on the OP side of the spawn scrub, stop using crutches"
"Lol, that guy is using AMS and there is only small lasers now. Scrub"

<- the universe that there is only small lasers and locusts.

[Xetelian]

I'd love to see a STD engine give +10% armor +10% Structure to the torsos and make FerroFib +10% Armor (-TBR-SCR) giving it a reason for use and it would help the mechs that get it over endo and can't change it.

[Nightshade24]

Xetelian, on 25 July 2015 - 11:38 PM, said:

I'd love to see a STD engine give +10% armor +10% Structure to the torsos and make FerroFib +10% Armor (-TBR-SCR) giving it a reason for use and it would help the mechs that get it over endo and can't change it.

eh... those are a bit to much of a problem... that would mean +20% armour if you stack STD and Ferro...

Giving light mechs basicly nothing while some assaults get nearly 100 total free armour... which would have been otherwise many tons...

There was a suggestion earlier like if you use ferro, standard heatsinks, standard engine, etc gives a c-bill bonus.
while things like endo take away from that bonus.

Also due to the fact clan mechs have no choice I had an idea earlier that they do a minor Heatsink buff for each thing they are missing...

No endo = +0.2 to HS
No ferro = +0.1 to HS
Hardwired heatsinks = those are true dubs. (nova and warhawk would love)

Etc...

So a mech like the Nova will get there DHS working at 1.7 instead of 1.4 ,

Maybe cutting those numbers by half could work... or maybe make it only work on say dissipation ...

Speaking of making heatsinks better in only 1 way...

I had an idea that say Clan mechs can dissipate more heat with there Heatsinks while the IS counterparts have much more higher threshold.

This way it'll slightly push for different playstyles of different mechs.

Especially the warhawk vs awesome debate. the warhawk will fire and wait till it cools down then fires.
While awesome will just fire barrages of ER/PPC's until it's hot and pull out to wait a bit.

just an idea...

[Duke Nedo]

Nightshade24, on 25 July 2015 - 11:32 PM, said:

Clan nerfs &lt; IS 'nerfs'
Clan tech &gt; IS tech
Clan quirks &lt; IS quirks.
Omnimech =/= battlemech
Clan Omnimechs &gt; IS omnimechs
Clan ER PPC &lt; IS ER PPC/ PPC

So many problems with the ballance, and the main problem is due to the fact that Clans are cursed and blessed with Omnimechs, while IS got battlemechs.

It's hard to ballance clan tech when you can't change your engine type or rating, location or use of ferro or endo or standard, or where those heatsinks should be.

Then how those equipment reflect the mech it is on. There's a difference between a nova and stormcrow. A Gargoyle and Timberwolf, etc...

I can tell you know that clan tech should and would peform differently on IIC's (battlemechs) then normal clan mechs. For eg some ideas would be clan battlemecsh would have SRM's and streaks go out in a stream. different ghost heat, different rules for Clan XL engine, etc...

I personally just wish we started off as battlemech and battlemech for both factions, and worked our way up from there... introducign the raptor aka IS light omnimech from 3052 could provide ballance statistical data... Just a vague idea on how omnimechs function...

however perspective is a bit skewed and different from the community... such as how some tech peform... ie


IS medium laser = Clan ER medium laser (common view of most clan pilots)
Clan ER medium laser = IS Large laser (common view of most IS pilots)
IS large laser = Clan ER large laser (common view of most clan pilots)
Clan ER large laser &gt; IS large pulse laser.

Etc... IS see ER mediums as a large laser that's 1 ton, 1 slot, and cold.
Clans see ER mediums as hotter medium lasers with more range, slightly more damage for longer duration time, etc.

of course I am using a bit of a blank term for IS and Clan pilot views as mostly everyone are a bit more varied then that and isn't a true statement for all. But the point does go across... I am surprised PGI are still up... guess the main problem is not that clans are overall OP, or overall UP. but the fact there is huge spikes of what is and isn't, and what mechs are and are not.. PGI kinda needs a way to equalise the clan mechs first and balance clan mechs with other clan mechs Before balancing IS with clan mechs.

Firstly, you have to Balance vs the best omnimechs, i.e. the ones With endo/ff/optimal engine size, i.e. SCR or EBJ. Just pointing at the Summoner wont Balance SCRs.

Secondly, you are really comparing the wrong Things. If you just ignore the names of the weapons and instead look at performance you'll see that more relevant comparisons are:

4x cERML (4 tons) vs 3x ISLL (15 tons)
4x cMPL (8 tons) vs 3x ISLPL (21 tons)
cGauss (12 tons) vs isGauss (15 tons)

one could even argue cSPL (1 ton) vs ISMPL (2 tons), though there is a range difference. Though it's a 50% tonnage gain that will more than make up for it.

Run these numbers and add clan XL survivability and then you'll see the big elephant...
I run both clans and IS and I just want a better balanced game for more fun and more future for the game. Steam players wont give dime about lore, they will want a fun and balanced game.

XL engines needs to be more balanced to each other, and something probably needs to be done about clan laser weight efficiency too at some point. Then we can use quirks to help Quickdraws, Awesomes, Dragons, Mist Lynxs, Summoners etc.

If the New quirk overhaul now ignores the elephants and just use durability quirks of various sizes (for heavies, I am guessing they will have a few branches of quirk-sets for different roles) it's only changing one band-aid for another imo.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 26 July 2015 - 01:59 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

People coming into a balance thread complaining about the fact that certain people will always want to improve balance.

"Why can't people just STFU and be happy?" Because there's no such thing as a perfect game. And people enjoy dissecting games and discussing them. Same thing with music, movies, paintings and sports. If that really strikes you as sad, then maybe this kind of forum isn't the best place to hang out?

[El Bandito]

Nightshade24, on 25 July 2015 - 11:32 PM, said:

Clan ER PPC < IS ER PPC/ PPC

The rest of your thread aside, how did you ever reach this conclusion? IS ERPPC is flat out inferior than the CERPPC.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 July 2015 - 04:12 AM.

[Sjorpha]

El Bandito, on 26 July 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

The rest of your thread aside, how did you ever reach this conclusion? IS ERPPC is flat out inferior than the CERPPC.

I was wondering the same, but it's not the first time I've seen this weird misconception. It seems to be one of those myths/truisms floating around in the balance discussion refusing to die.

[Lord0fHats]

El Bandito, on 26 July 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

The rest of your thread aside, how did you ever reach this conclusion? IS ERPPC is flat out inferior than the CERPPC.

Obvious reasons?

The CERPPC generates 15 heat so that it can do 2.5 damage to 2 adjacent components (total of 5 damage). I.E. The weapon pays 50% more heat, so that it can deal worthless spash damage. I want to blow out a Black Jack's Right Torso, and assuming I can aim worth a damn, that 5 splash damage on an arm and a CT is worthless to me and I pay 50% more heat for it.

CERPPC is a horrible weapon at the moment. Even on quirked platforms, it's just not worth it unless you really enjoy PPCs. EDIT: I admit, I enjoy punishing foolish light mechs that decide to stand still. Quad PPC Warhawk + dead light mech that decided to stand still. That'll teach um to forget SPEED IS LIFE!

Edited by Lord0fHats, 26 July 2015 - 05:14 AM.

[ZippySpeedMonkey]

Gah...

I just said this 5 minutes ago in another post and I'll say it again....

Clan Tech is supposed to be Superior

Read the Lore...

The biggest issue is PGI's refusal to create a mode that allows only Inner Sphere vs. Clan.

P.s. I do not count community warfare as most of us don't play it..

[El Bandito]

Lord0fHats, on 26 July 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

Obvious reasons?

The CERPPC generates 15 heat so that it can do 2.5 damage to 2 adjacent components (total of 5 damage). I.E. The weapon pays 50% more heat, so that it can deal worthless spash damage. I want to blow out a Black Jack's Right Torso, and assuming I can aim worth a damn, that 5 splash damage on an arm and a CT is worthless to me and I pay 50% more heat for it.

CERPPC is a horrible weapon at the moment. Even on quirked platforms, it's just not worth it unless you really enjoy PPCs.

Did you even read my comment carefully? I asked why IS ERPPC is superior than CERPPC. IS ERPPC is basically CERPPC, without the splash and one ton heavier AND one slot larger. You can't mount ERPPC on IS mechs' CTs while you can mount CERPPC on Clan CT.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 July 2015 - 05:14 AM.

[Lord0fHats]

El Bandito, on 26 July 2015 - 05:13 AM, said:

Did you even read my comment carefully? I asked why IS ERPPC is superior than CERPPC. IS ERPPC is basically CERPPC, without the splash and one ton heavier AND one slot larger.

And only 10 heat. < That makes all the difference in the world. The splash damage is utterly worthless. Saving a ton and a slot doesn't really make up for paying 15 heat per shot.

Quote

You can't mount ERPPC on IS mechs' CTs while you can mount CERPPC on Clan CT.

... And? What? Afraid those mean Clan mechs are going to zombie?

[LORD ORION]

Quick balance is easy.

Decide on a PPFLD vs DPS weapon ratios.
Decide on these average values at long, medium, and short ranges.

Give quirks that allow different variants of a mech to perform similarly in damage at the different ranges.

[El Bandito]

Lord0fHats, on 26 July 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

And only 10 heat. < That makes all the difference in the world. The splash damage is utterly worthless. Saving a ton and a slot doesn't really make up for paying 15 heat per shot.



... And? What? Afraid those mean Clan mechs are going to zombie?

IS ERPPC has FIFTEEN heat, you boob! Do you even play the game?

[Lord0fHats]

El Bandito, on 26 July 2015 - 05:21 AM, said:

IS ERPPC has FIFTEEN heat, you boob! Do you even play the game?

I actually thought the ERPPC did 10 and the PPC did 8

[Sjorpha]

Lord0fHats, on 26 July 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

And only 10 heat. < That makes all the difference in the world. The splash damage is utterly worthless. Saving a ton and a slot doesn't really make up for paying 15 heat per shot.

IS ERPPC is 15 heat. It is strictly inferior to CERPPC.

ZippySpeedMonkey, on 26 July 2015 - 05:11 AM, said:

Gah...

I just said this 5 minutes ago in another post and I'll say it again....

Clan Tech is supposed to be Superior

Read the Lore...

The biggest issue is PGI's refusal to create a mode that allows only Inner Sphere vs. Clan.

P.s. I do not count community warfare as most of us don't play it..

It doesn't matter how many times you state your opinion if people just don't agree with it.

It's not that people don't know about clans being superior in lore, it's that they don't care about bad design from the past.

[Alek Ituin]

Alistair Winter, on 26 July 2015 - 02:02 AM, said:

People coming into a balance thread complaining about the fact that certain people will always want to improve balance.

"Why can't people just STFU and be happy?" Because there's no such thing as a perfect game. And people enjoy dissecting games and discussing them. Same thing with music, movies, paintings and sports. If that really strikes you as sad, then maybe this kind of forum isn't the best place to hang out?

"improve balance"

Yeah, sure, just constantly complaining about things you don't like counts as "improving balance". I mean, it's not like that does exactly the opposite, and that games kowtowing to whiners end up in the trash bin. Come back to me when you find a balance thread that isn't "Clans OP because reasons", "IS quirks OP", or the ever ubiquitous "Clan Lasers OP". I'm sure we'll all be dead well before then, but hey, you can always try.

If, for instance, a thread provided evidence, logical arguments, and objective facts... It would be a legitimate balance thread. Anything else is just "I don't like this aspect so I'm going to complain until everything caters to ME, and ME alone."

Edited by Alek Ituin, 26 July 2015 - 08:17 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Duke Nedo, on 26 July 2015 - 01:45 AM, said:

-snip-

Thank you for basicly saying the exact same thing as I said and perform as a good example to what I said above on peoples perspectives.

[Aresye]

The biggest problem with balance discussions is you have 2 groups looking at different things.

Clans look at quirks.
IS look at stats.
Both sides are wrong.

Why are both sides wrong? Because things that are outside the normal stats are often ignored. Clans mainly use lasers because they're mainly the only effective weapons they have aside from gauss. The side torso heat penalty you get from losing a side torso is a lot more crippling than people realize, especially with asymmetric builds.

Then there's the whole thing about laser duration. I use a DPI shift on my mouse so I can focus shots easier when zoomed in, but even with that I've completely foregone the CERLL. A 1.5s beam duration (without negative quirks) is useless against any opponents that know what they're doing. I've been in many 4 CERLL vs STK-4N battles, where the only winning move is not to play. The 4N's hitboxes, quirks, and hardpoint locations are flat out superior to the point any advantages the CERLL has in range and damage output is completely negated.

I've played the top of the line quirked IS mechs, and I've played the meta Clan trinity. Both have huge balance problems. In the background you have all the other IS and Clan mechs that are completely underpowered compared to both of these groups.

I'm all in favor of a flat out 1:1 balancing pass. It'll at least narrow down the list of reasons for why a player loses. Perhaps one day we'll make the game so bland and devoid of character, that there will exist only one single remaining reason for why a player loses:

They're bad.

Because aside from 2 competitive teams near even in skill going up against each other, most of what people think is a tech-gap is really a skill-gap. A player blames weapon balance for the reason they died so quick, completely ignoring the fact that it was probably more of the, "Standing still on a ledge overlooking the entire enemy team," thing that got them killed.

Doesn't mean there aren't balance problems in the quirks and Clan trinity. People need to stop looking at what they get killed by, because it's going to be biased and often with a multitude of factors. Instead players need to look at what they DON'T play, or HAVE to play, in order to do well. Chances are, if you HAVE to play a particular mech and/or build, it's probably out of balance.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 26 July 2015 - 11:09 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Aresye Kerensky, on 26 July 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:

...Clans mainly use lasers because they're mainly the only effective weapons they have aside from gauss.
....

This is also true for IS if you are taking about CW. There are the occasional (ER)PPCs. Thankfully they are buffed now. Some time I'll take my quad ERPPC Warhawk to CW to see how it performs.