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Pts Radar Change Test


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#1 Wild Kadabra

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 05:25 PM

It is no secret to the community that ECM is a controversial thing at best, and there has been many discussions as to how to balance it. But like me some other players think that ECM is just a symptom of a greater issue which is the way radar works in MWO.

In MWO basically all mechs, share radar info, which mean that most games (at the very least in PUB level) turn down to SWARM THE CLOSEST DORITO AS A DEATHBALL. There have been many threads about ECM, and deathballing and ppl wanting more strategic gameplay.

My proposition is taking baby steps into changing how information warfare works in the game, and for instance allow one weekened where in the PTS, you only share dorito info with members of your own lance. This would create a need to work closely with members of your own lance, while allowing some flanking and strategic opportunities, as not everyone in the enemy team will instantly know your location if u get spotted.

So how would the community welcome such a weekend event on the PTS?

Edited by Wild Kadabra, 26 July 2015 - 08:06 AM.


#2 Mcgral18

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 05:44 PM

PSST....that's not how C3 works.


But yes, Test Servers should be used more often. Perhaps for radical balance changes.

#3 Xetelian

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 05:45 PM

Down grading the tech is probably not going to happen, even if it would solve some problems. Nothing would be better than having a system that is as high tech as we can get without breaking the game.

Not something I'm an expert in.

#4 Throat Punch

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 05:47 PM

Mechs do not have C-3 in MWO.

#5 Kodiak Jorgensson

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 06:07 PM

my friend here is talking about the targeting info that is shared via a c3 network. since MWO already has this feature implemented (with out the actual equipment being present), i think it would be fairly interesting to limit it to lance members only, which could impact the game in multiple ways hopefully positive ones. :P

#6 Throat Punch

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 06:23 PM

View PostKodiak Jorgensson, on 25 July 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

my friend here is talking about the targeting info that is shared via a c3 network. since MWO already has this feature implemented (with out the actual equipment being present), i think it would be fairly interesting to limit it to lance members only, which could impact the game in multiple ways hopefully positive ones. :P


All mechs share target info regardless of if they have a c3 equipped. All c3 does is give a main and up to three slaves range to target bonuses. The closest C3 equipped mech determines the range used by everyone. It has nothing to do with target sharing.

#7 Hans Von Lohman

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 12:36 AM

For me the problem isn't that you get a target indicator (Dorrito) or not, but that it is either there, or it isn't. I needs to have another variable. Time.

Instead of getting a red arrow and can lock, or never getting that because the enemy is under ECM, the real issue isn't if you get a lock on option, but rather when you get it.

If a mech walks out into the open, you shouldn't get a red arrow over his head until after a few seconds, and those few seconds can be longer for smaller mechs. ECM doesn't stop a lock, but instead it will just make it take longer to get the red arrow and a lock, while Active Probes shorten the time.

Quirks for lock on time can be added to mechs to also make certain designs take longer or shorter times to get a lock on them.

I know the game has a variable time on getting locks already, but you see it for LRM missiles and for target information readouts. Whatever that code is, just apply it to the red arrow and lock on in the first place.

As odd as this sounds, I think the main benefit of ECM shouldn't be stopping enemies from getting a lock on the ECM mech, but instead it should stop the enemy from ever getting your weapon and armor readout.

Imagine every mech can equip ECM, but it isn't nearly as god-like ECM we have now. You move along and an enemy Catapult with ECM steps out. Lets say the "sensor profile" for a Catapult is a 3 second delay before you get the red arrow and can lock onto him. ECM doubles this, and so it takes a full 6 seconds before you can lock onto him. As he has ECM equipped, you never get his weapon and armor readout. You will never know if the Cat has just a pair of LRM-20's or if he has six SRM-6's "splat-cat" build. You also have no idea if he has a cherry red Center Torso tempting you to just dive after him and finish him off, or full health.

Edited by Hans Von Lohman, 26 July 2015 - 12:39 AM.


#8 Thunder Child

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 01:25 AM

I agree that they need to use the PTS more often, and that something needs to be done regarding Information Warfare, however.....

http://mwomercs.com/...20#entry4582387

I just need to post that, because everyone always seems to get confused regarding C3 and what it ACTUALLY does.

#9 Alistair Winter

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 01:41 AM

View PostMcgral18, on 25 July 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

PSST....that's not how C3 works.
But yes, Test Servers should be used more often. Perhaps for radical balance changes.

For sure! There are still so many unanswered questions about gameplay balance. So many ideas about ECMs, LRM, passive / active radar, heat scale, convergence, etc.

I know a lot of players and devs are looking forward to pushing the timeline and I admit that the current content is getting a bit stale. But shaking up the gameplay with some radical balance changes would have just as good effect as adding MRMs and light gauss to the game, and probably more.

#10 STEF_

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 01:55 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 26 July 2015 - 01:41 AM, said:

For sure! There are still so many unanswered questions about gameplay balance. So many ideas about ECMs, LRM, passive / active radar, heat scale, convergence, etc.



.... and the test server is still there, useless.
What about to test changes, for instance, one every 10 days (so to have at least 10 days of data each).

#11 Alistair Winter

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 02:00 AM

View PostStefka Kerensky, on 26 July 2015 - 01:55 AM, said:

.... and the test server is still there, useless.
What about to test changes, for instance, one every 10 days (so to have at least 10 days of data each).

I think it would need to be monthly at most. Otherwise you get player fatigue and you probably have more data than you have time to analyse. On top of that, there's the issue of how to sort out XP and C-bill rewards or CW progress for all the people playing on the test servers. Any time spent on the test server has no effect on the normal servers, which means you'd only attract a certain type of player and your data wouldn't be representative.

If you do a monthly test lasting 3-4 days, you'd probably attract all kinds of players and everyone would be excited to try something new every time.

#12 STEF_

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 02:05 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 26 July 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

I think it would need to be monthly at most. Otherwise you get player fatigue and you probably have more data than you have time to analyse. On top of that, there's the issue of how to sort out XP and C-bill rewards or CW progress for all the people playing on the test servers. Any time spent on the test server has no effect on the normal servers, which means you'd only attract a certain type of player and your data wouldn't be representative.

If you do a monthly test lasting 3-4 days, you'd probably attract all kinds of players and everyone would be excited to try something new every time.

It's ok to test one change montly.
I see no issue about xp and c-bills: let's do it for free like playerbase tests now: the players attracted are the ones who really care about this stuff and how to develop mwo. I'm ok with doing it for free.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 26 July 2015 - 02:05 AM.


#13 Weeny Machine

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 02:16 AM

I wouldn't mind testing stuff on the PTS either. At least you can experience the stuff first-hand than and give respective feedback

#14 Tincan Nightmare

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 02:42 AM

View PostMors Draco, on 25 July 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:


All mechs share target info regardless of if they have a c3 equipped. All c3 does is give a main and up to three slaves range to target bonuses. The closest C3 equipped mech determines the range used by everyone. It has nothing to do with target sharing.


Yah here's the quote from TechManual pg. 209

Introduced: 3050 (Draconis Combine)
The Command/Control/Communications (C3) system is easily
among the Inner Sphere’s most potent recent inventions. It is also
one of the most original, considering that it emerged not as the
result of a Star League tech recovery, but as a new application of
technologies. As much a revolution in battlefield technology as one
of combat philosophy for its creators in the Draconis Combine, the
system is essentially an elaborate tight-beam communications suite,
designed to link the sensors and targeting systems of up to a full lance
of friendly units in a single, closed network. The C3 system enables
those within its network to draw targeting data from one another and
coordinate fire with amazing ease. As long as effective weapon ranges
and lines of fire permit, a member of a C3 network can essentially strike
at a target with the same accuracy as the nearest friendly network
member. Moreover, units that mount a C3 master computer—with the
other network members using slave nodes—can use the computer’s
coordination as an improvised TAG system.
The system, of course, has its limits. Only units in the same network—
generally a single lance, though creative deployment of multiple
master computers per unit may allow for networks as large as a
company—may share targeting data in this fashion. Friendly units with
systems outside the network cannot simply “tap in” at will. Further, the
network signals and data streams are susceptible to jamming by enemy
ECMs. Worst of all, the hierarchical nature of the system means that the
loss of the master computer to destruction or ECM interference crashes
the entire network, leaving its surviving units to fend for themselves.
Sad to say, the biggest obstacle to optimum use of the C3 system is
a matter of ego more than technology. Ironically produced by a realm
with a strong sense of personal honor and a warrior’s code, the concept
of a communal targeting and communications network is often lost
on the warriors of the DCMS. Indeed, despite efforts to force a more
widespread distribution of the technology, this mentality has apparently
kept an otherwise powerful system virtually marginalized on the
battlefield, even as other factions adopt similar systems of their own.

Notice the 'communal targeting and communications' part. Yes mechs are described as sharing info, but not to the degree we get to use in MWO. At the very least we should get the 'dorrito' to show an enemies location, but we should not be able to lock onto it, or fire LRM's at them. Even C3, which costs tonnage and slots, doesn't effect LRM targeting, and while indirect LRM fire exists in the TT, it in no way operates like what we have in MWO.

In fact, heres the quote from pg. 39 on standard mech sensors and comm links.

BattleMechs are also not islands unto themselves. They can
share sensor data to some extent, allowing greater sensory
performance than a single ’Mech can achieve. The specialized
equipment of a C3 system takes this to new heights with direct
battlefield applications, but all BattleMechs can at least
receive basic sensory data from a unit mate.

Notice the 'some extent' and that the C3 expands on this. We are pretty much getting free C3, which makes you wonder how they would even implement a MWO version of C3 in the future (which would be necessary if they ever want to put mechs in the game that have stock builds that come with C3).

#15 stjobe

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 03:35 AM

View PostTincan Nightmare, on 26 July 2015 - 02:42 AM, said:


Yah here's the quote from TechManual pg. 209

Here's a screen of it:

Posted Image
(Tech Manual, p.209)

And here's the rules from Total Warfare:

Posted Image
(Total Warfare, p.131)

Finally, here's the Tech Manual text about standard sensors:

Posted Image
(Tech Manual, p.39)

#16 Wild Kadabra

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 07:35 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 26 July 2015 - 01:41 AM, said:

For sure! There are still so many unanswered questions about gameplay balance. So many ideas about ECMs, LRM, passive / active radar, heat scale, convergence, etc.

I know a lot of players and devs are looking forward to pushing the timeline and I admit that the current content is getting a bit stale. But shaking up the gameplay with some radical balance changes would have just as good effect as adding MRMs and light gauss to the game, and probably more.


that's why the idea is having a PTS weekend to test lance only share info, and see community feedback, if nobody liked it then it was just a weekend of some fun with something new, if ppl react positive to it then it can be looked into to be implemented into regular game

#17 Khobai

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 07:37 AM

Quote

In MWO basically all mechs, have C3 system installed,


nope. they dont.

mechs can share sensor and target information without C3.

what C3 does is entirely different. it analyzes the sensor/target information for the entire lance and uses complex computer models to generate firing solutions to make mechs in the lance hit more accurately.

Quote

We are pretty much getting free C3


nope we arnt.

again mechs can share sensor info without C3. What C3 does is take all the sensor info, and uses it to create firing vectors to make your lance's weapons more accurate.

Its like how all the ships in a US carrier battlegroup can share eachothers radars when shooting down missiles with Phalanx CIWS. That would be a real life analogy to what C3 does. And theres nothing like that in MWO.

Quote

which makes you wonder how they would even implement a MWO version of C3 in the future


It really wouldnt be that hard... it could just work like the clan targeting computer but with a few key differences:

1) C3 master computer would cost 5 tons and 5 crits and include a free integrated TAG. And as long as the C3 master computer is intact, all IS mechs in the lance would gain the benefit of having Level 3 Targeting computers.

2) C3 slaves would cost 0 tons/crits and be built-in to all IS mechs (but Clan mechs couldnt use them) The reason for making C3 slaves free on all IS mechs is because pugs would never use them if they werent free. Otherwise it would be a premade equipment only and premades dont need more reasons to be better than pugs.

So basically the master computer would give the equivalent of 13 tons/13 crits for the low price 5 tons/5 crits. But with the restrictions that the master computer has to be functioning and only IS mechs in the lance benefit from it. Also the bonuses from the master/slave computers could be disrupted by ECM.

It also differentiates IS and Clan more by giving IS more efficient/centralized buffs while clans get less efficient/decentralized buffs.

Edited by Khobai, 26 July 2015 - 08:05 AM.


#18 Wild Kadabra

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 08:09 AM

edited original thread, since i think the C3 discussion is taking away from the general point of the thread, my apologies if i misunderstood how C3 does, but the general point is whether or not a more limited, lance only data sharing information is something ppl would like to test in PTS server for one weekend, to see the community feedback after having tested it and viability of having it as a more strategic information warfare option.

I'm pretty sure there are many other options that could possibly be better for information warfare, but i believe the best approach is taking baby steps and making use of that PTS server to gather community feedback.

#19 Astrocanis

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 08:26 AM

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:


nope. they dont.

mechs can share sensor and target information without C3.

what C3 does is entirely different. it analyzes the sensor/target information for the entire lance and uses complex computer models to generate firing solutions to make mechs in the lance hit more accurately.



nope we arnt.

again mechs can share sensor info without C3. What C3 does is take all the sensor info, and uses it to create firing vectors to make your lance's weapons more accurate.

Its like how all the ships in a US carrier battlegroup can share eachothers radars when shooting down missiles with Phalanx CIWS. That would be a real life analogy to what C3 does. And theres nothing like that in MWO.



It really wouldnt be that hard... it could just work like the clan targeting computer but with a few key differences:

1) C3 master computer would cost 5 tons and 5 crits and include a free integrated TAG. And as long as the C3 master computer is intact, all IS mechs in the lance would gain the benefit of having Level 3 Targeting computers.

2) C3 slaves would cost 0 tons/crits and be built-in to all IS mechs (but Clan mechs couldnt use them) The reason for making C3 slaves free on all IS mechs is because pugs would never use them if they werent free. Otherwise it would be a premade equipment only and premades dont need more reasons to be better than pugs.

So basically the master computer would give the equivalent of 13 tons/13 crits for the low price 5 tons/5 crits. But with the restrictions that the master computer has to be functioning and only IS mechs in the lance benefit from it. Also the bonuses from the master/slave computers could be disrupted by ECM.

It also differentiates IS and Clan more by giving IS more efficient/centralized buffs while clans get less efficient/decentralized buffs.


And this gives a reason to include the Cyclops in IS mechbays. One of my favorite C&C mechs from TT.

#20 Rebas Kradd

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 08:51 AM

View Poststjobe, on 26 July 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

Here's a screen of it:

Posted Image
(Tech Manual, p.209)


Now there's a way to balance the game. Implement C3 with targeting and accuracy bonuses, but don't let the Clans use it. ;)





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