264 replies to this topic

[xXBagheeraXx]

Richter Kerensky, on 27 July 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

ECM is not required to defeat LRMs.

That is usually the only thing that defeats me when i drive mine. I spot my own targets, and one of my builds packs a narc and has narc quirks. Its absolutely fatal if I just get an enemy team that isnt drowning in ECM mechs. Most people dont expect LRM warhawks to pack thier own Narc, so they will try the usuall "Im gonna peekaboo and duck this Lurmhawk before his missiles hit me! HUE HUE HUE" Cept they get 2 erl large lasers and a ninja narc for thier troubles...then when they back behind cover the missiles keep coming for the duration of the narc. Added bonus, anyone on my team that has LRMS usually focuses whatever i just hit so...yeah.

I remember one Caldera game where I was probably the biggest mech we had. We had 3 other lrm stalkers. enemy team was nothing but Atlases and king crabs....Exactly what I described above happened and every single person i narced died before the narcs duration ran out.

[Mavairo]

Bush Hopper, on 27 July 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

Weird I saw those prose die to LRMs. But hey... no pro ever dies to LRM, right?

Point is: BS, sorry

Which "pros" have you watched die to LRMS?

Also dying once in a while to LRMs, happens. The only weapon in this game, no one has ever died to ever is the Flamer.
That doesn't mean that it's an effective weapon system.
LRMs don't kill people consistently who are better than Terrible at this game. And that's exactly why they have not been Meta in Years.

Also here's a quick test of your ELO
Do you see the following mechs often
Awesomes
Catapult
Orions
Quickdraws
Trebuchets

Edited by Mavairo, 27 July 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[Lorian Sunrider]

LRM's are fairly easy to counter. Good positional awareness in regards to cover, keep an eye out for UAV's, and even Radar Deprivation are all options outside of ECM.

Generally speaking until I bought three Wolverines when they were on sale I stuck to always SRM's. Mostly because I play hit and run light builds or brawler medium builds (Hunchies especially). With Wolverines I found myself not getting as close so I would load up a few LRM 5's depending on the build and I found it was nice to be able to either soften up my targets or contribute when I'm not close enough to help with my lasers/AC's.

Granted that all went to hell when Shadow Cat came out. Now its back to SRM's for a while.

But LRM's should only really be used as a complimentary weapon in most cases in my humble opinion.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Jman5, on 27 July 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

It's always interesting how polarizing LRMs are in this community. How come we never have heated discussions about Small lasers?

LRMS are to this game what Artillery is to World of Tanks....

Cept i cant one shot you by clicking on you from across the map while i eat a sand witch and watch porn between reloads.

People still have a nasty taste in thier mouths from the pre ECM days when LRM builds where king. Im sure everyone also remembers the many Lurmagheedons when lrms where one shotting you, or legging you, or headshotting you, or doing unholy amounts of CT damage, or flying at mach 3.5...through the many iterations of LRMS we have had.

The only small laser hate you will see would probably be the Small pulse laser Firestarter, and I belive that finally got fixed when they redid its quirks.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 27 July 2015 - 11:46 AM.

[Mavairo]

Jman5, on 27 July 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

It's always interesting how polarizing LRMs are in this community. How come we never have heated discussions about Small lasers?

The only reason they are "polarizing" is the forums exist.
People don't like the fact that they can't just stand in the open, and face tank each other's gunfire in peace.

[Lorian Sunrider]

xXBagheeraXx, on 27 July 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

LRMS are to this game what Artillery is to World of Tanks....

Cept i cant one shot you by clicking on you from across the map while i eat a sand witch and watch porn between reloads.

People still have a nasty taste in thier mouths from the pre ECM days when LRM builds where king. Im sure everyone also remembers the many Lurmagheedons when lrms where one shotting you, or legging you, or headshotting you, or doing unholy amounts of CT damage, or flying at mach 3.5...through the many iterations of LRMS we have had.

The only small laser hate you will see would probably be the Small pulse laser Firestarter, and I belive that finally got fixed when they redid its quirks.

This.

I left the game for a while because of LRMGeddon.

Comparatively LRM's are throwing Nerf Darts at people compared to what they used to be.

Edited by Lorian Sunrider, 27 July 2015 - 11:55 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

its not the missiles fault its the event, everyone spreads the lrm love and hopes the rest of the team will take the hits and win the game for them, simple tactic, poke and duck let the 3000 missile boat exhaust its supply and then you kill them

[MeiSooHaityu]

LRMs are a huge issue for many because it is a weapon that doesn't require a LoS to use (mostly) and when they are damaged or caught in the open, all they see is this rain of warheads falling from the sky and no enemy they can strike back at. They are often stripped of armor or killed before they can get back into cover or spot the offending UAV above them and have a chance to destroy it.

Pros tend not to use them because they are too unreliable. If an enemy drops with ECM and offers proper coverage, a LRM heavy build can be a problem. Even with TAG, that LRM build has to now poke his head out to point the TAG laser and is now vulnerable to high alpha return fire.

LRMs are not that much of an issue under a lot of circumstances (especially more seasoned players), but this game is always getting new players that haven't learned how to avoid them, or experienced players who get caught in a vulnerable spot and can't get to cover. To these players LRMs are a weapon that hones in and strikes them without them being able to do a thing about it. It can feel cheap and make them feel helpless, and that is why I think LRMs will never go away as a topic on the forums.

[Shae Starfyre]

Mavairo, on 27 July 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

The only reason they are "polarizing" is the forums exist.
People don't like the fact that they can't just stand in the open, and face tank each other's gunfire in peace.

This reminds me of Roman Gladiators tied to a block of marble, knees to knees, with sticky bandages full of broken glass pummeling each other.

Imagine the banality of the connotations.

Edited by Aphoticus, 27 July 2015 - 12:02 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Bush Hopper, on 27 July 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

Not only that...people forget that it is not just the damage. Missiles are supression weapons and their slow flight is in this case a blessing because people sit longer behind their cover until the swarm hist.

Err, no. This is just wrong.

Me, in any direct fire mech vs. LRM mech. We see each other, we both open fire. I stand about, in full view, firing for a second or two, while the LRM mech is already taking damage. Then, I leisurely move into cover, walking backwards and turning as the LRM's impact. I'm in cover just long enough for the LRM's to impact, then I'm out again. Before the LRM mech can get another lock, I'm already hitting him - despite having taken either zero damage or 3-4 missiles that happen to luckily skip over cover, randomly distributed. This is a terribly unfair exchange for the LRM mech. He's taking damage before he can even start firing, while he's firing, while his missiles are in flight... and then he's doing little to no damage when they finally get to me.

Quote

What these oh-so-pro guys who bleat "lrms never kill me. You suck lolol" forget is - when they hunker down smiling in their cover, the others of their team can be ganged on by the enemy. Or the enemy can come for them because they are pinned.

I'm not "oh so pro". I'm an experienced, but average pilot.

That's my point. As long as you don't suck (you know you suck if you die to LRM's regularly) then it's trivial to negate them. Opponents with any other weapon system except flamers are more dangerous. At no point am I "pinned" - I can peek out, fire, be back in cover before the LRM mech can have missiles on me. Because I'm not a half-wit Rambo wanna be, I'm close to the rest of my team too, so my peek-fire-cover that draws a lot of the LRM mechs time is utilizing one enemy mechs firepower, WHILE I'm doing damage and he isn't.

This is why I'm so adamant about this. LRM's are very poor weapons, and need to be better so they're actually worth using. However, because of their NOOB TUBE status, where they crush newbies, PGI isn't willing to buff them so they're usable by anyone other than those rookies. This makes me sad.

I'd like to see LRM's in play. I'd like to see them be at least close to as usable a choice as other weapon types. But right now, it's not a "optimal vs. viable" discussion; LRM's are not even viable weapon systems in normal average non-rookie play.

It's not just ECM, but ECM is a strong factor. It doesn't matter how good you are at lurming, if there are 3+ ECM mechs on the opposing team and they have half a freaking clue, you will be 100% unable to obtain locks at all, and thus all those tons and slots of weapons on your mech may as well not be there at all.

But even with NO ECM AT ALL, LRM's are still unreliable weapons at the best of times.

They aren't "feast or famine". There is no feast, unless you're firing at bad players. This isn't even an argument - the only way to say that LRM's are overpowered at all is to acknowledge that you're bad at the game; that's fine, if you can accept that and pay attention to people when they try to tell you how to get better, how to learn to negate LRM's. But so often people sit and insist that no, they are really good at the game but they still just die to some random newbie sitting behind a rock with no LOS firing LRM's indirectly.

No.

If that happens - if you die to that - you are bad. Not, "you're not comp level good", no, you're bad at the game, basically a raw rookie mechwarrior. Stop crying, and learn to be better, or if that's too hard, just spend a couple cbills and buy either an ECM mech, a multi-AMS mech, and equip a radar derp module and call it a day.


As I said, I'm not an exceptional pilot, not particularly good. I don't run AMS, I don't even equip ECM on my ECM mechs (except my D-DC, but I rarely play that). I own one radar derp module, and I don't know what mech it's equipped on.

Despite all of that, I don't fear LRM's at all. Not at all. The only case where I'm even cautious is if I see a very good pilot who's also very good with LRM's - and even then, it's a pilot I know is vastly better than I am, and I'm thankful he's got LRM's and not something more dangerous.

Otherwise? LRM mechs are easy meat. They're score padding.

[Wintersdark]

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 July 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

LRMs are not that much of an issue under a lot of circumstances (especially more seasoned players), but this game is always getting new players that haven't learned how to avoid them, or experienced players who get caught in a vulnerable spot and can't get to cover. To these players LRMs are a weapon that hones in and strikes them without them being able to do a thing about it. It can feel cheap and make them feel helpless, and that is why I think LRMs will never go away as a topic on the forums.

Yeah, LRM's badly need a full overhaul. Because I'd like to see them be a usable weapon outside of rookie stomping, and that will never happen with how they currently are implemented. I'd also like new players to not be randomly slaughtered by them, if for no other reason than never having to listen to another one bursting into tears because he got killed and can't possibly conceive that it was entirely his own fault.

But it won't happen with how LRM's work now. Nor will it happen if they are just nerfed - they're already very poor weapons.

[Lorian Sunrider]

Probably been suggested before, but what if LRM's actually launched more horizontally than how they do their current arc?

Then they would be more of a LoS weapon, and would require LRM boats to actually get in the fight more.

[Richter Kerensky]

Bush Hopper, on 27 July 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

Weird I saw those prose die to LRMs. But hey... no pro ever dies to LRM, right?

Point is: BS, sorry

I've heard this song and dance before. Marik must have a really short memory.

[Mavairo]

Lorian Sunrider, on 27 July 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

Probably been suggested before, but what if LRM's actually launched more horizontally than how they do their current arc?

Then they would be more of a LoS weapon, and would require LRM boats to actually get in the fight more.

Except unless you are shooting at an idiot, you pretty much need LOS in the first place to effectively use LRMs. Someone who just sits behind some rocks, is going to end a match doing -maybe- 300 damage with LRMs, against average or better pilots.

I crap 300 damage in like 6 alphas in my brawlers, and mid range direct fire mechs. And usually by the 3rd alpha, tops someone on the other end of my guns has died.

For LRMS to be effective against decent pilots, the user has to constantly shift, and move positions, and fire from no more than 500 meters away, while equipped with a TAG, and probably with the help of Narc, and UAVs. Anymore than that or any other circumstances, and the nerf darts, most likely won't even hit the target.

Edited by Mavairo, 27 July 2015 - 12:22 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Lorian Sunrider, on 27 July 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

Probably been suggested before, but what if LRM's actually launched more horizontally than how they do their current arc?

Then they would be more of a LoS weapon, and would require LRM boats to actually get in the fight more.

This wouldn't make them better. They are totally garbage fired indirectly; LRM boats NEED to get into the fight, and fire from close range, to have any chance of hitting pilots who aren't terrible.

It wouldn't help rookies, either, who'd still get lurmed to death.

Edited by Wintersdark, 27 July 2015 - 12:24 PM.

[Richter Kerensky]

Wintersdark, on 27 July 2015 - 12:05 PM, said:

Yeah, LRM's badly need a full overhaul. Because I'd like to see them be a usable weapon outside of rookie stomping, and that will never happen with how they currently are implemented. I'd also like new players to not be randomly slaughtered by them, if for no other reason than never having to listen to another one bursting into tears because he got killed and can't possibly conceive that it was entirely his own fault.

But it won't happen with how LRM's work now. Nor will it happen if they are just nerfed - they're already very poor weapons.

LRMs are a very poorly designed weapon for a game like this. If they were actually good the game would be completely unbearable to play because when you're playing an LRM boat you're not even required to aim, really, so why would anyone take anything else? Missiles that home in on where your cursor is pointing, maybe closer to something like the rocket launcher from Half Life 2, would make for a much more interesting weapon system that could also be buffed to be more effective.

[Scoops Kerensky]

When someone tries to tell you LRMs are in any way good, worth using, or should be made better is when you know there's no need to pretend their opinion matters anymore.

Edited by Scoops Kerensky, 27 July 2015 - 12:30 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Jman5, on 27 July 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

It's always interesting how polarizing LRMs are in this community. How come we never have heated discussions about Small lasers?

Because LRM's are unique in that the majority of their effectiveness is tied disproportionately to the skill of the targeted player, rather than the firing player. Not to say you don't need skill to use them effectively but rather that you have to be MUCH better than your target to use them effectively once your target has any sort of experience at all.

Thus, new players get ravaged by LRM's, even fired by other new players, while experienced players practically never die to them at all.

That doesn't happen with lasers. Rookies don't know how to use defensive piloting to spread damage, but they're fighting other Rookies who don't know how to focus their damage either.

[Mavairo]

Richter Kerensky, on 27 July 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

LRMs are a very poorly designed weapon for a game like this. If they were actually good the game would be completely unbearable to play because when you're playing an LRM boat you're not even required to aim, really, so why would anyone take anything else? Missiles that home in on where your cursor is pointing, maybe closer to something like the rocket launcher from Half Life 2, would make for a much more interesting weapon system that could also be buffed to be more effective.

You think this game requires aiming? There's no windage, no inertia added to your rounds from your own movement, no true bullet drop worth mentioning, and miraculously every direct fire weapon you have goes -exactly- where you are pointing them, even inspite of being mounted meters apart, no matter how close or far away the target is, with perfect convergence every time.

Given that lurms spread their dmg everywhere and anywhere, they'll never be favorable weapons. Infact, the problem is, for the effort required, their dmg both in DPS and most importantly of all Burst, is so low, that it's not worth fielding them. This is exactly why even more so than the presence of ECM, Derp and AMS, their presence is non existent in tournament play. You have to maintain the lock, full time, everytime unless the guy you are shooting is a complete mook. And or someone has to narc them for you and waste at least 4 tons of their own mech's armament, (and this is usually on a Light, where 3 tons is either near ten percent, or ten percent or more of their total mass for a Assist Weapon that might not even be of use) plus a consumable, and or BAP (which is 1 or 1.5 tons... Again on light mechs)

This game doesn't have aiming. It has point, click fire, and watch it hit your center point of where ever your targeter is.
The myth of other weapons requiring more skill is just that.

If Lurm use were no skill required, everyone would be using them, as it would be very little risk for high rewards. Even at their current damage and flight speed.
You'd see Lurm on Every Mech, even if it were a single LRM 10 or pair of 5s.

Edited by Mavairo, 27 July 2015 - 12:37 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Scoops Kerensky, on 27 July 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

When someone tries to tell you LRMs are in any way good, worth using, or should be made better is when you know there's no need to pretend their opinion matters anymore.

Wait, what's wrong with wanting them to be better, to be a weapon that is actually good or worth using? I want flamers to be worth using too. That's even less likely though.