264 replies to this topic

[Mavairo]

Wintersdark, on 27 July 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

Wait, what's wrong with wanting them to be better, to be a weapon that is actually good or worth using? I want flamers to be worth using too. That's even less likely though.

The day Flamers are worth using, is the day this game closes down. I'd say you committed a sin by speaking of flamers, but I already did it once in this thread too.

[CygnusX7]

I'm laughing a little bit.. on the inside.

[Richter Kerensky]

Mavairo, on 27 July 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

You think this game requires aiming? There's no windage, no inertia added to your rounds from your own movement, no true bullet drop worth mentioning, and miraculously every direct fire weapon you have goes -exactly- where you are pointing them, even inspite of being mounted meters apart, no matter how close or far away the target is, with perfect convergence every time.

Given that lurms spread their dmg everywhere and anywhere, they'll never be favorable weapons. Infact, the problem is, for the effort required, their dmg both in DPS and most importantly of all Burst, is so low, that it's not worth fielding them. This is exactly why even more so than the presence of ECM, Derp and AMS, their presence is non existent in tournament play. You have to maintain the lock, full time, everytime unless the guy you are shooting is a complete mook. And or someone has to narc them for you and waste at least 4 tons of their own mech's armament, (and this is usually on a Light, where 3 tons is either near ten percent, or ten percent or more of their total mass for a Assist Weapon that might not even be of use) plus a consumable, and or BAP (which is 1 or 1.5 tons... Again on light mechs)

This game doesn't have aiming. It has point, click fire, and watch it hit your center point of where ever your targeter is.
The myth of other weapons requiring more skill is just that.

If Lurm use were no skill required, everyone would be using them, as it would be very little risk for high rewards.

Okay sure the weapon that only requires you to point your view in the general direction of an enemy is definitely not the noob trap weapon, because what this game REALLY needs is you having to do a bunch of pre-calculus nonsense in order to fire your gun. Why did this suddenly become a semantic argument about what "aiming" really means?

Wintersdark, on 27 July 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

Wait, what's wrong with wanting them to be better, to be a weapon that is actually good or worth using? I want flamers to be worth using too. That's even less likely though.

I think Scoops means just giving them some blanket buff like increased damage, or faster travel or lock time and not redesigning them from the ground up would be a lame "fix" for them being bad.

Edited by Richter Kerensky, 27 July 2015 - 12:42 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Richter Kerensky, on 27 July 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

I think Scoops means just giving them some blanket buff like increased damage, travel or lock time and not redesigning them from the ground up would be a lame "fix" for them being bad.

Ah, yeah, fair enough.

You certainly can't fix them by buffing the current stats, as even if they did absurd damage etc, they'd still be grossly unreliable and be even worse newbie-smashers than they currently are.

Sadly, I've never seen PGI ever acknowledge that LRM's need a complete redesign. I suspect they're just going to leave them be.

[Revis Volek]

Mcgral18, on 27 July 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

There were 3 proper ones, if I remember correctly.


1.8 damage LRMs with splash damage that caused an additional 1.8 damage for each hitbox in the radius. Headshotting most mechs after 20 missiles hitting the area.

Artemis might have been related to that. Then there was the separate Artemis where it was CT coring everything and coming in at roughly 80 degrees? Very little cover worked.


Then there was something else...don't think it was LRMs turning 180 degrees by firing, then then sequentially locking a target AFTER the missiles had passed their target...but it might have been.




Some people whined the 165 speed was the 4th Lurmageddon...I laughed at them. I seem to remember them being much faster than that at one point...perhaps that along with 1.8 damage +splash was one of the Lurmageddons.


We haven't had one in years.

Splashageddon LRMS

Speedaggedon LRMS

Trajectoryageddon coupled with Mega Cluster quirks LRMS


Did we miss any?


I assure you this is not one of those times tho OP....I cant remember the last time i died to LRMS when i wasn't already dead due to mistakes on my parts, being legged or a team of mechs finding me being not so sneaky.

Edited by DarthRevis, 27 July 2015 - 12:45 PM.

[Yosharian]

PGI I have a problem

LRMs too powerful when there's no ECM

I am unwilling to run an ECM mech myself

Please fix

[Scar Glamour]

LRMs are just fine. They take skill to avoid and skill to use effectively. They are not competitive, sure, but what is except for rainbow boating these days...

[Hobotorius Augustus Kerensky]

*said while stacking enormous piles of CBills earned from murdering 12 mans and pugs in CW who consistently bring LRMs*
Oh no...don't bring LRMs, they are really really good and not at all easily countered, you will surely beat us next time if those jerks on your team just hold locks and don't die from the concentrated laser fire the moment they pop out.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

RedDevil, on 26 July 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

See what I mean? Everyone will pile on to you not matter how reasonable an argument you make for changing ECM in exchange for making LRMs LoS. The best arguments are they'll say you're just bad if you get hit by LRM's.

Truth is, you're bad if you get hit by LRM's, i say this as an LRM boat user [Founders Cat. Timberwolf Prime, Mad Dog Prime.] and as someone who's lived through every iteration of LRMpoclypse, AND someone who utilizes ECM.

That being said, I do agree that the "MAGIC JESUS BOX OF JESUSNESS!" needs a huge adjustment. I agree that I shouldn't beable to target you indirect without TAG/NARC assistance, and I agree that radar needs to be LOS based like prior Mechwarrior titles [hell take the Advanced Radar idea from MekTek's MW4Mercs free release.]

but as the game sits right now, it's too easy to use LRM's, always has been. On the same token, they are the most easily countered weapon in the game, with quite literally, the most hard counters that exist vs any 1 singular weapon type. ECM blocks it, AMS blocks it, LOS blocks it, at least lasers, and AC's don't have to worry about 2 of those 3.

[Averen]

Is it really so hard to see the issues with LRM? Should be pretty easy to spot (huehuehue).
Yeah, assume 3 lances of your team might be protected by ECM at the same time. But what's with that one mech outside the bubble, which is fighting with a light? He can be foccused by every single LRM boat in 180 to 1000m distance.
And that's the problem, it allows foccused fire without line of sight. It makes the simple act of peaking out of cover to a potentially suicidal issue, especially with Narc, UAVs and ECM lights. Yeah, they can actually make the problem worse since it's nearly impossible to actually deal with an ECM equipped spotter somewhere in 600m distance. Even noticing UAV is a matter of luck, since the vertical FoV is to narrow, many mechs have cockpits incapable of looking upwards, and being engagend in a simple peaker-duell already makes it hard to keep a look out.

LRMs are weapons designed for beginners. It's very easy to have a bunch of lucky hits. Someone will make a mistake or just have bad luck, and then he'll get foccused down by indirect fire.

And that's about it: Luck. Skill is absolutely secondary. You can't just take cover when you're engaged in combat, and avoiding spotters might be impossible. The high missile trajectorie also makes most cover useless.
The amount of bad players using LRM boats should speak for themselves. A bunch of ECM mechs didn't stop them for more than a few days.

Edited by Averen, 27 July 2015 - 12:51 PM.

[AssaultPig]

lol, of all the things that could be pointed at you when you break cover, LRMs are by far the least frightening

LRMs need buffed if anything; they're being helped a bit atm by all the free UAVs flying around, but that'll die out pretty soon

[Mavairo]

Richter Kerensky, on 27 July 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Okay sure the weapon that only requires you to point your view in the general direction of an enemy is definitely not the noob trap weapon, because what this game REALLY needs is you having to do a bunch of pre-calculus **** in order to fire your gun.

Which is exactly the equivalent that is going on with LRMs against anything other than the steeringwheel underhive, and rookies.

They break LOS even for a second and they have Derp onboard? Now you have to reacquire lock all over again, and your previous salvo is wasted, while you ate their direct fire.

They run into ECM? There goes the lock.

They run towards friendlies, that have AMS in multiples? Well there goes the 30 damage (fun fact, most of the missiles actually miss their target in this game) that you were likely to score.

They get more than 500 meters away from you? Well now, unless they're traveling at like 55 kph, and were WAY away from cover, chances are, they'll actually be able to get to cover before most of the lrms even finish hitting the target..IF any hit at all.

I'll fully admit, I play EZ mode. I use weapons that provide me with the least resistance to getting results. And guess what I don't use? LRMs. Because against most of the people I'm going to be playing against, they require the most effort, versus Alpha Strike into someones ST, blow it out, switch to the other one Blow It Out Too, or if their CT is especially large, Blow Out CT and move on.

Yes, using direct fire needs to be more difficult in this game. Even just adding your mechs motion to your ballistic inertia would be fantastic. Gyros, aren't THAT good. Especially with a bipedal robot.
Weapons and hardpoints should have a set convergence distance, hell you wouldn't even need to do any equations to figure out what distance that you need to be at. The damn HUD could do it for you, if this game had a UI worth mentioning, it could also tell you how long it'll take for your ballistics to travel to whatever you are aiming at. For figuring in how much lead you need, there could be a bar, with hash marks going left to right across whatever altitude you are aiming your targeter at. And again this is all something that could EASILY be done. Hell if Wargaming can do it, I know damn well PGI can.

The reason this would honestly be better, is to give armor a purpose in this game. Let's be honest, when we see an Assault Mech, we don't see 80+ tons of death incarnate. We see Cbill and XP Pinatas. Why? Because it's too easy to blow them out. Their armor is inneffective because all of our guns are going to hit whatever we point at every time, and they are neither fast enough to effectively spread damage, (especially due to their size) or avoid getting hit in the first place once exposed.

People griped about how "hard" that hero mech challenge was, and that you had to overfarrm.. I played less than 45 matches in my Fang, and finished second in the Fang. And I'm hardly a pro pilot.

Edited by Mavairo, 27 July 2015 - 12:54 PM.

[Lorian Sunrider]

Mavairo, on 27 July 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

Except unless you are shooting at an idiot, you pretty much need LOS in the first place to effectively use LRMs. Someone who just sits behind some rocks, is going to end a match doing -maybe- 300 damage with LRMs, against average or better pilots.

I crap 300 damage in like 6 alphas in my brawlers, and mid range direct fire mechs. And usually by the 3rd alpha, tops someone on the other end of my guns has died.

For LRMS to be effective against decent pilots, the user has to constantly shift, and move positions, and fire from no more than 500 meters away, while equipped with a TAG, and probably with the help of Narc, and UAVs. Anymore than that or any other circumstances, and the nerf darts, most likely won't even hit the target.

Wintersdark, on 27 July 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

This wouldn't make them better. They are totally garbage fired indirectly; LRM boats NEED to get into the fight, and fire from close range, to have any chance of hitting pilots who aren't terrible.

It wouldn't help rookies, either, who'd still get lurmed to death.

Fair enough gentlefolk. I appreciate the input. Was just a random idea. As I said I only ever use them on mechs that have extra tonnage free and don't need the heat sinks (Wolverines). Otherwise give me SRM's like crazy so I can harass you to death.

Edited by Rhazien, 27 July 2015 - 03:05 PM.
Doublepost

[Richter Kerensky]

Generally speaking, it's very easy to make favorable trades with an LRM mech at almost any distance assuming you're driving a decent mech and didn't put a bunch of terrible weapons on it.

[BigJimJack]

I run everyone of my LRM boats with TAG. If you want to stand in the open while I lock in quickly and launch 50 LRM's then that is on you. A good pilot is running back under cover the moment they hear incoming missiles and yes once they are out of sight I no longer have a lock. So what is the problem. I don't let ECM be my crutch for OR against me.

[Lyoto Machida]

Yellonet, on 26 July 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

I might try it some day, do I need any skills or do I just sit in cover and press a button?

Learn to play and you shouldn't have issues with LRMs. Or post your LRM stats if you're so good at them...

[Novakaine]

Mavairo, on 27 July 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

Who hunkers? I see LRMs and I chuckle, and keep moving. 2 minutes later there's an LRM pilot dying horrendously to gunfire to his rear CT, or better yet if he's IS his rear ST and out goes his XL engine.

The better than average players, see LRMs, and continue in the routes they were going to anyway, and engage, or alter course slightly, blow the LRMs off the map with gunfire, and move on.

The Real Pros, don't even see LRMs because they're that terrible, unless it's a dead hour and there aren't enough players in their ELO brackets.

Let me bash that theory right now.
Haters gonna hate.
Good Rocketeer's just gonna lurm.
Dun be Hatin.
Oh and you probably believe teamwork is op also?

Edited by Novakaine, 27 July 2015 - 01:18 PM.

[Richter Kerensky]

Congratulations on making nine people's arms and torso armor orange and KSing that Timberwolf probably.

Edited by Richter Kerensky, 27 July 2015 - 01:20 PM.

[Mavairo]

Novakaine, on 27 July 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

Let me bash that theory right now.
Haters gonna hate.
Good Rocketeer's just gonna lurm.
Dun be Hatin.
Oh and you probably believe teamwork is op also?

441? You're going to brag about 441dmg?

I think you misread my post there.
LRMS suck as weapons.
I said the pros don't even see them on the field, because their ELOs are too high, unless it's dead time.

By the way Teamwork is OP, and that's a good thing.

441 and 7 kills means you simply landed the last hits, on already toast mechs.

THIS is more like 7 kills and actual work done.

Edited by Mavairo, 27 July 2015 - 01:22 PM.

[Richter Kerensky]

Oh, sorry, I didn't realize you were the Hunchback. Congrats on KSing 7 targets in a game where a 228 guy did over 1100 damage. I just assumed you were him because I figured no one would actually brag about dealing 441 damage, much less with LRMs.

Edited by Richter Kerensky, 27 July 2015 - 01:25 PM.