264 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

DuoAngel, on 27 July 2015 - 11:56 PM, said:

I can bring 5C-SPLs plus 2-3 heatsinks (that worth of 8 tons of weapons) in my ACH. Will you challenge me in your LRM stalker that way?
I can expose myself all day long on this occasion

No. LRM Mechs are made for supporting and not for dueling.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 28 July 2015 - 03:05 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hit the Deck, on 27 July 2015 - 11:59 PM, said:

No. LRM Mechs are not made for supporting and not for dueling.

Then why are LRM Mechs normally assigned to Fire SUPPORT lances in Canon???

[VinJade]

I can counter the LRM rain being too powerful with this,
ECMs are too powerful giving the mech the (now illegal) Phantom mech ability which makes the mech vanish from being seen up close & how badly it unbalances the game.

By the way LRMs are designed to be lobbed over walls and other indirect fire long before Tags.

want to mess with one then you best mess with the other.

[Hit the Deck]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 July 2015 - 02:40 AM, said:

Then why are LRM Mechs normally assigned to Fire SUPPORT lances in Canon???

Sorry, I had a brain fart and typed too many "not" I'll correct it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hit the Deck, on 27 July 2015 - 11:59 PM, said:

No. LRM Mechs are made for supporting and not for dueling.

Fire SUPPORT Mechs are STILL usually LRM carriers.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 July 2015 - 03:06 AM.

[El Bandito]

Hit the Deck, on 27 July 2015 - 11:59 PM, said:

No. LRM Mechs are made for supporting and not for dueling.

I had missile duels with other LRM boats. It was glorious.

[Joseph Mallan]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 July 2015 - 03:06 AM, said:

Fire SUPPORT Mechs are STILL usually LRM carriers.

I swear I still saw the NOT for support... Getting tired from working so much I guess.

[PurpleNinja]

Yellonet, on 26 July 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

The last few days I've been playing in the rain... of missiles.

Quite some time now.

Yellonet, on 26 July 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

I'd say that in half the matches I've played recently, LRM boats have been the deciding factor of which team wins the fight.

I guess MM puts all LRMs boats in one team and all the slow fatties on the other. No?

Yellonet, on 26 July 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

In some matches there is literally a constant downpour of LRM's, and as ECM is pretty rare and avoiding LRM's in a slow mech is nigh impossible I'd say that right now LRM's are overpowered.

Rare, are you out of your mind? We're not playing the same game. Since Shadow Cat and Artic Cheetah, my average game has at least 10 ECM.

Yellonet, on 26 July 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

It just makes for very boring gameplay when you spend several minutes getting into position, then all of the sudden a light mech runs past and spots you, then the rain begins and if you're not near some cover you're dead.

Light spotter. Must not be pugland.

Yellonet, on 26 July 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

Also, AMS isn't all that effective when you have a hundred missiles coming your way.

I think they works all the same regardless of the number of missiles.

Yellonet, on 26 July 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

Using LRM's shouldn't be as easy to use as it is now, just wait for someone to lock a target, then spam away with missiles.

It's not that easy, unless it's Caustic.

Yellonet, on 26 July 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

Either ECM should be made available for many more mech models or the use of LRM's should be made more difficult. I'd say that the latter is the better alternative.

More ECM mechs? Really?

Yellonet, on 26 July 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

My suggestion would be to make LRM's unable to lock on target unless you have either visual contact with the target or if you have visual contact (think of it as a line of sight data link) with the spotter. This would make spotting for LRM boats more of a skill as you will have to have both the LRM boat and the target in light of sight, also positioning of the LRM mech would become more important.

Are you suggesting some tabletop Battletech rules? That's insane.

[GeistHrafn]

PurpleNinja, on 28 July 2015 - 03:52 AM, said:

Light spotter. Must not be pugland.

Hey, I resemble that remark. I drive a Raven Narc spotter on a pretty regular basis in Pugland.

[VinJade]

I have to wonder, those that gripe about LRMs not have access to AMS?
one AMS chews through LRMs like a kid after Halloween so can you imagine a couple of mechs with one or two each?

they alone can thin out LRM rain.

[Wintersdark]

Hit the Deck, on 27 July 2015 - 11:50 PM, said:

No, because with direct fire weapons you have to expose yourself to the enemies and thus risking yourself and you can miss your shot. Moreover, being hit by LRMs shakes your entire cockpit and blind you so you can't effectively shoot back. Not to mention that with direct fire weapons you can't physically shoot the enemies while with LRMs you can and that's why LRMs are useful. At 800m Gauss is obviously better than LRM at hitting the enemies if you can see them.

For the LRM mechs, someone has to expose themselves. So, there is a good, valid target to fire at. And if it's a direct fire mech, it's a better target to kill, because it's actually dangerous.

LRM cockpit shake is irrelevant because you can't reliably hit people with LRM's who don't want to be hit, LRM's are hardly the only weapon that shakes cockpits when hit, and cockpit shake is a purely visual effect that you can fire through just fine if you have two brain cells to rub together.

But, good job totally missing the point.

It's not about dual gauss in particular, but that's just a very significant example.

Autocannons, lasers, PPC's, whatever. In order to fire LRM's at someone (and have any chance of hitting them) you need a lock, then travel time. At 500m, (generally the long range limit for effectiveness at all with LRM's) you're looking at a 2s lock time followed by a 3 second flight time, IF the LRM mech can pick up and lock you the MOMENT you move out of cover. 5 seconds, and that's an ideal situation. Those LRM's aren't hitting anything.

And that isn't "play forced by LRM's", that's how people are going to act much of the time vs. direct fire mechs anyways.

Also, 5 seconds is plenty of time to advance from cover to cover; add a few seconds if you're fine with eating a volley or two on the way (which is OK, LRM's do laughably low damage and it's spread everywhere).

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Also why people often bring dual GAwssss into discussion?! It's 24 tons for the Clans and 30 for the IS, just for the weapons alone! And like every 'Mech can mount them.

*shrugs* It's a much more dangerous fire support setup. Not every mech can mount it, but lots of them can - and do.

Regardless, the same applies to any other direct fire setup.

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EDIT: Also, you are talking about advancing into LRM Mechs and make their weapons useless in short range. Obviously he/she is in the middle of the enemy force. I guess that wouldn't work well.

So if they're all together, then at least the LRM's are coming from a very predictable direction and as such are easily anticipated and intercepted with cover. Again, that LRM mech is dealing less damage than it's direct fire comrades, and it's spreading that damage too. It's not, baring the most aggressive and rare good LRM pilot, absorbing any damage so it's more dangerous direct fire comrades are eating 100% of the incoming fire so it can lob missiles ineffectively.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wintersdark, on 28 July 2015 - 05:49 AM, said:

For the LRM mechs, someone has to expose themselves. So, there is a good, valid target to fire at. And if it's a direct fire So if they're all together, then at least the LRM's are coming from a very predictable direction and as such are easily anticipated and intercepted with cover. Again, that LRM mech is dealing less damage than it's direct fire comrades, and it's spreading that damage too. It's not, baring the most aggressive and rare good LRM pilot, absorbing any damage so it's more dangerous direct fire comrades are eating 100% of the incoming fire so it can lob missiles ineffectively.

I see this in a different light. Not everyone NEEDS to be in the shi... And an extra 40-70 damage hitting my target every few seconds ends him faster than me beating him by myself. So I willingly put myself in harms way so Missiles can rain with less to worry about.

[Weeny Machine]

DuoAngel, on 27 July 2015 - 11:56 PM, said:

I can bring 5C-SPLs plus 2-3 heatsinks (that worth of 8 tons of weapons) in my ACH. Will you challenge me in your LRM stalker that way?
I can expose myself all day long on this occasion

Two things...

1. Now I see which kind of people think LRM lock mechanics are balanced...

2. Honestly...you even need an ECM to 1 vs 1 an LRM mech. I mean...seriously? Which brings me back to no.1

[Lugh]

Bush Hopper, on 28 July 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

Two things...

1. Now I see which kind of people think LRM lock mechanics are balanced...

2. Honestly...you even need an ECM to 1 vs 1 an LRM mech. I mean...seriously? Which brings me back to no.1

You don't need Anything but sense to 1 v 1 an LRM mech. ECM makes you able to derp your entire course to get to it.

Just get under 180m and profit.

And if their team isn't covering them? Easy kill.

[Mister Blastman]

Why is this thread still here?

[Pika]

Another day, another LRM thread.

How many more times do people have to shown that LRMs are - by far - the worst weapon in the game? And now you want to nerf them further? (Alright Mgs and Flamethrowers might be worse but they don't count, right? >.>)

Can they be frustrating? Yes. Are the powerful? Good god no. Unless you get NARCed. In which case you made a mistake and then team work killed you. Which is what you want.

Edited by Pika, 28 July 2015 - 06:54 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Wintersdark, on 28 July 2015 - 05:49 AM, said:

-long post-

You are talking about cover and that everyone doesn't want to get hit... Of course LRMs doesn't work if the OPFOR is well covered!

The point of LRMs is that they can fire indirectly and thus can deny your team's advance by suppressing your movement. What the LRM Mech has to do is fire a single NARC and gets back to cover. To advance, all of you have to get out from cover and coming towards the opposing team. The OPFOR's LRM Mechs can stay hidden while lobbing missiles at your team. In group/team drops, the advancing team can stay under fire and keep advancing if the commander thinks that it's worth the risk but in PUG/solo drop this will quickly break their formation because there's no command.

So you wanna say that you can predict the incoming missiles and move from cover to cover because there are conveniently placed giant rocks between your team's position and mine. Then of course my team LRMs won't work! Duh.... The bane of LRMs are cover and AMS, just like I've said earlier on the second page. ECM can work if the enemies work together as a team. This is often not the case in PUG/solo drops.

[Wintersdark]

Hit the Deck, on 28 July 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

You are talking about cover and that everyone doesn't want to get hit... Of course LRMs doesn't work if the OPFOR is well covered!

The point of LRMs is that they can fire indirectly and thus can deny your team's advance by suppressing your movement. What the LRM Mech has to do is fire a single NARC and gets back to cover. To advance, all of you have to get out from cover and coming towards the opposing team. The OPFOR's LRM Mechs can stay hidden while lobbing missiles at your team. In group/team drops, the advancing team can stay under fire and keep advancing if the commander thinks that it's worth the risk but in PUG/solo drop this will quickly break their formation because there's no command.

direct fire is still much better at disrupting an advance and keeping people in cover. Much, much better. NARC is pretty short ranged, too. If you're in narcing range, chances are the opposing team is close enough. Even if not, though, a short delay isn't going to matter.

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So you wanna say that you can predict the incoming missiles and move from cover to cover because there are conveniently placed giant rocks between your team's position and mine. Then of course my team LRMs won't work! Duh.... The bane of LRMs are cover and AMS, just like I've said earlier on the second page. ECM can work if the enemies work together as a team. This is often not the case in PUG/solo drops.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. And there are ALWAYS (Caustic excepted) conveniently placed rocks(or whatever map specific equivalent). On every map. They even added them to River City.

This is the whole freaking point. If the players aren't bad, LRM's won't work. And you know what? Unless you're in low Elo scrub land, LRM'S DON'T WORK. For that very reason. There are so very many hard and soft counters, it's trivial to completely negate enemy LRM's.

It's a weapon system whose usefulness is entirely dependant on your opponents being very bad, AND not bringing any ECM mechs so they don't have to even bother trying.

Edited by Wintersdark, 28 July 2015 - 07:18 AM.

[Praehotec8]

Why do so many people seem to feel that LRMs should not do any damage and not get any kills?

If you get killed by LRMs (especially from a distance) then you either wandered out into the open and stood around where you ought not to, or you were out-maneuvered by an enemy LRM mech and did not respond. In either case, any other weapon system would have killed you just as easily, if not more so.

In PUG play, LRMs can be useful, especially when used in conjunction with direct fire weapons. If I focus-fire on an enemy engaged with one of my teammates, that enemy is getting rocked and will fire less effectively back, resulting in less damage to my team, and a quicker kill. What part of that is not fair? Group fire exceeds solo fire any day. However, direct fire from other weapons would STILL likely be more efficient than LRM fire. LRMs only current benefit is the ability to indirect fire and add damage without direct LOS. Take away or nerf indirect fire and you are left with a less powerful LB-X that is essentially useless up close.

I do not enjoy getting cored by a dual gauss sniper from 1.5km away who has turned off depth of field such that he can fire on me while I cannot even visualize him, but I would not complain that it is ruining the game...

[Throat Punch]

Mister Blastman, on 28 July 2015 - 06:50 AM, said:

Why is this thread still here?

Because its educational...or something