33 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

I guess because you can't target a specific component with your weapons barring a special condition (shutdown etc.), they are as deadly as any other weapon. Also their flight time doesn't matter. Am I correct in my assumption?

[Egomane]

It depends.

You are correct in your assumption that flight time doesn't matter. Everything hits or misses immediatly.

In 3025 gameplay, if you are working with lots of LRMs and a few well placed spotters (who don't need TAG, C3 or other such stuff, against the common believe of some of MWOs player base) and harrasers, they can be a game changer. At the same time it is easy to get below their minimum range and render them mostly useless. Units carrying large amounts of LRM are usually weak in close defense, because of how heavy those launchers and their ammunition are.

LRMs can't target specific locations under any circumstances. Even against shutdown mechs or those with an unconcious pilot they will still spread their damage and the amount of missles hitting the target is decided by a roll of the dice.

All the above applies to the inner sphere version of LRM.

Clan LRM which come with half the weight and no minimum range are also usefull as brawling weapons. Though they still spread their damage all over the target and how much damage they deal is as random the inner sphere version. In this timeline though their effectivness is somewhat reduced, due to the fact that there are several other weapons with more range then the LRMs (the various Gauss, ER-PPCs, ATMs and more).

Of course it always also depends on the terrain you are playing. If the terrain offers lots of cover while closing to the LRM units, you can try a slow aproach, moving from cover to cover. Just make sure, no spotter is seeing you. If it is a mostly open map, rush them as fast as you can. If you try to rush them through difficult terrain, they will annihilate you. If you move carefully through the open, you won't make it either.

Edited by Egomane, 29 July 2015 - 05:11 AM.

[SnagaDance]

Also in TT many of the stock chassis are hampered by a serious lack of ammo, often only carrying a single ton of ammo for each launchers. With the number of volleys being determined by 120/launcher size. So an Lrm20 would only be able to fire 6 times.

If an Lrm-mech isn't carrying 2 tons/launcher (Lrm5's being the exception) I tend not to bother with them in TT unless I've got no better options.

[draiocht]

Also worth noting that critical damage in TT is far more dangerous from any hit once armor is compromised. Large-damage pinpoint weapons to breach armor, then splatter weapons (such as LRMs) to attempt critical damage.

Of course, in MWO, internal equipment is far more durable. Generally more likely for LRMs to destroy the body part with raw damage before its stored equipment suffers.

[RedDevil]

Imagine LRMs in TT acting like LBX autocannons in MWO, except hitting locations in clusters of 5 or part thereof. That's a pretty close comparisons.

Edited by RedDevil, 08 August 2015 - 05:01 PM.

[SpiralFace]

LRM's in TT are considered "Jack of all trades master of none" weapons in the game.

Before you understand why, you have to learn that TT revolves around 3 major weapon concepts as far as the tournament mentality goes:

• Hole Puncher weapons offer large damage to single locations in an effort to instantly "core" or blow off single components but are subjugated to the random allocation chart and can potentially hit a location you do not intend on hitting.
  
• Crit seeker or "cluster" weapons are weapons with the intention of "spreading" the damage across multiple locations in an effort to hit "exposed" components and trigger critical effects that impede the mech in combat (engine / gyro hits, ammo bin destruction.)
  
• Battery fired weapons. Clusters of multiple "smaller" caliber weapons that get you the most "to hit" roles in an effort to hit fast moving targets. (30% chance to hit with an AC 20 is terrible, but 6 ML's with a 30% chance to hit each statistically nets you 10 damage you didn't have.)

LRM's as a weapon system occupy a unique but weird space as far as the weapons in BT are concerned.

• They are one of the most "weight efficient" long range weapon in the game.
  
• But they are ammo hogs and require a large amount of ammo bins to keep going.
  
• They have some of the best range out of any weapon in the game.
  
• But their minimum range restricts them from being really handy in a knife fight, and even though the clans don't have a min range, they aren't that "damage" efficient for what you get.
  
• They are generally regarded as fairly "meahhh..." heat efficient weapons for the damage you get. Better then PPC's, but worse then all Auto canons.
  
• The fact that they cluster in groups of "5" put them in an odd spot as a weapon. "5" is generally regarded as a "battery fire" or the low spectrum of a "hole puncher" number, but because they cluster, they can also be seen as quasi "cluster" shot weapons.
  
• People make a big deal about the Indirect fire, but in all honesty, indirect fire is TERRIBLE on them unless you are utilizing combined arms.
  
• You see, indirect fire means that a spotter has to spot for you in lieu of shooting for the turn, and the modifiers you accumulate on the indirect fire is added as a COMBINATION between both the spotters and the firing mech's movement and range profiles. So the only real way you can ever really be "efficient" with this is if you utilize something like infantry. Who never accumulate movement penalties, and who probably wouldn't be in range to shoot themselves if they got within the 7 hexes usually needed for indirect fire.
  
• Because of this, indirect fire in a mech on mech engagement in the TT typically tends to be a TERRIBLE idea, because you are sacrificing someone from shooting just for the CHANCE of winging them indirectly.

All of this puts them in a weird spot. They don't do enough direct damage to single spots to really be considered true "hole punchers," they don't get enough to hit roles to be considered "crit seekers," and larger launchers don't get enough to hit rolls to really be a good "battery fire" weapon (although LRM5's can be spammed for a good battery fire solution.) But that being said, they kinda do "all of this" on the low end of the spectrum.

• 5 damage clusters is nothing to scoff at, and is essentially a ML hit.
  
• Having at least SOME cluster rolls is better then only a single hit that is dependent on lucky roles to contact where you want it to.
  
• LRM 5's and 10's can typically be spammed to give some of the longest ranged battery fire solutions out there.

So overall, its a MUCH more general "jack of all trades" weapon compared to what you see in MWO. It has its uses,

[Wrayeth]

SpiralFace, on 09 August 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

• People make a big deal about the Indirect fire, but in all honesty, indirect fire is TERRIBLE on them unless you are utilizing combined arms.
  
• You see, indirect fire means that a spotter has to spot for you in lieu of shooting for the turn, and the modifiers you accumulate on the indirect fire is added as a COMBINATION between both the spotters and the firing mech's movement and range profiles. So the only real way you can ever really be "efficient" with this is if you utilize something like infantry. Who never accumulate movement penalties, and who probably wouldn't be in range to shoot themselves if they got within the 7 hexes usually needed for indirect fire.
  
• Because of this, indirect fire in a mech on mech engagement in the TT typically tends to be a TERRIBLE idea, because you are sacrificing someone from shooting just for the CHANCE of winging them indirectly.

Indirect fire can be useful when one of your mechs or vees is crippled and unable to move or fight effectively, especially if you have a LOT of LRMs at the ready such as a couple of LRM Carriers, a Salamander or a Longbow or two (the 2 x LRM20, 2 x LRM 15 variant). That crippled mech can then spot for indirect fire and still contribute.

However, indirect fire becomes MURDEROUS when you add in a TAG laser and Semi-Guided LRM munitions. Once a target is successfully tagged, the TAG-carrying unit's movement modifier doesn't affect indirectly-fired Semi-Guided LRMs, and the LRMs get to ignore the +1 target number modifier for indirect fire. Even better, they ignore the target's target movement modifier. Finally, as the icing on the cake, the unit doing the tagging can fire its weapons in the same turn without hindrance.

There is a BV cost for all of this, but it's often quite worth it. A couple of maneuverable TAG-carrying units, some LRM boats with Semi-Guided, and some heavily-armed and -armored mechs to act as bulwarks to protect the LRM boats, and you've got a vicious little fighting force. Also remember that a C3 Master has built-in TAG.

Oh, and since you're bringing TAG anyway, why not including some units with Arrow IV launchers and homing munitions to act as hole-punchers/outright mech killers?

Pardon me while I start up MegaMek and go play a game with this force; it's been too long since I've played with Semi-Guided LRMs.

EDIT: Two and a half lances from the Magistracy of Canopus (me) just crushed a reinforced company of Marian Hegemony troops (the bot).

Defeating the bot's not exactly the hardest thing to do under normal circumstances, but it did have a significant numbers and tonnage advantage. I want to say I was running something like 650 tons, 7 mechs, and 3 vees, where the bot had 900-something tons and 16 mechs. I did have a significant advantage of my own: modern tech. There were only a few modern tech units in the bot's ToE, whereas all of mine were modern tech. I had:

• 3 LRM Carriers (WoB model, but only because MegaMek wouldn't allow me to to use Semi-Guided on two standard Heavy LRM Carriers instead)
  
• A Longbow LGB-7V as their bodyguard/additional fire support (2 x LRM20 with Semi-Guided, an ER Large Laser, and 5 medium pulse)
  
• 2 Agrotera TAG spotters/unhittable jumpers (6/9/8 movement, TAG, ER PPC for long range, lots of pulse lasers for short)
  
• A Cataphract -4L
  
• A Warhammer -8D (on the Magistracy list for some reason in the Early Republic era)
  
• A Penthesilea -2MAF
  
• A Pillager -3Z (because Pillager!)

The Marians had a lance each of assaults, heavies, mediums, and lights from the Marian Hegemony RAT.

With 3-gunners in the LRM Carriers, Longbow, and Agroteras, I usually got at least one TAG hit a turn, then indirectly fired 11 LRM20's on such difficult to-hit numbers as 5 and 7 (and, once, 3). I was crippling or outright killing a mech each turn with focused fire from the LRM boats, which didn't have to worry about intervening terrain or TMMs.

End result in this 18.6k BV (Magistracy) vs. 18.9k (Marian) BV match was 16 dead Marian mechs. The Magistracy forces, on the other hand, all survived, though the Penthesilea and Warhammer were badly shot up.

So yeah, indirect LRMs: freakin' awesome if you have Semi-Guided.

Edited by Wrayeth, 09 August 2015 - 10:14 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Wrayeth, on 09 August 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

....
So yeah, indirect LRMs: freakin' awesome if you have Semi-Guided.

What's the difference between that and Streak LRMs?

[Nightshade24]

Hit the Deck, on 10 August 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:

What's the difference between that and Streak LRMs?

not heavy into TT.. but I believe Streaks require line of sight and are fire and forget weapons... if added into MW: O so to say- all you have to do is point, click, and forget. (however judging by streak SRM handling... you probably need a lock first)

TT guys, how wrong am I here on a scale of 1 to 10? ^^;

[Juodas Varnas]

Nightshade24, on 10 August 2015 - 02:04 AM, said:

not heavy into TT.. but I believe Streaks require line of sight and are fire and forget weapons... if added into MW: O so to say- all you have to do is point, click, and forget. (however judging by streak SRM handling... you probably need a lock first)

TT guys, how wrong am I here on a scale of 1 to 10? ^^;

You're pretty right, as far as i recall.
They were Clan weapons, i think.

However they did weigh as much as IS LRMs and couldn't shoot indirectly (AT ALL), so in MWO, nobody would use them

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 10 August 2015 - 02:09 AM.

[SnagaDance]

Streaks in TT are Inner Sphere or Clan weapons (Clan has the whole bunch, IS only the SSRM2, developing the other 2 at a later time).

In TT they only fire when 'a lock is acquired'. Which meant that if you missed your to-hit roll on the dice the weapon simply did not fire. Very ammo efficient.

(the actual number of missiles subsequently hitting was still randomized)

[Nightshade24]

Juodas Varnas, on 10 August 2015 - 02:08 AM, said:

You're pretty right, as far as i recall.
They were Clan weapons, i think.

However they did weigh as much as IS LRMs and couldn't shoot indirectly (AT ALL), so in MWO, nobody would use them

Eh... there are trade ofs... possibly will be higher velocity and lower missile arc if it's in MW: O, thus being more of a direct fire weapon so to say and with the fire and forget nature could hold some strength, As well as possibly having no stream and more of a tighter cloud due to the mass of it compared to IS...

"but it's a missile, we do not need it" -meta 2013 to 2015

[Juodas Varnas]

Nightshade24, on 10 August 2015 - 03:43 AM, said:

Eh... there are trade ofs... possibly will be higher velocity and lower missile arc if it's in MW: O, thus being more of a direct fire weapon so to say and with the fire and forget nature could hold some strength, As well as possibly having no stream and more of a tighter cloud due to the mass of it compared to IS...

"but it's a missile, we do not need it" -meta 2013 to 2015

I'd rather get MRMs.
No lock-on, just a whole f*ckton (up to 40 missiles per salvo) of missiles.

Volume of fire, motherf*ckers.

[Wrayeth]

SnagaDance, on 10 August 2015 - 03:40 AM, said:

Streaks in TT are Inner Sphere or Clan weapons (Clan has the whole bunch, IS only the SSRM2, developing the other 2 at a later time).

In TT they only fire when 'a lock is acquired'. Which meant that if you missed your to-hit roll on the dice the weapon simply did not fire. Very ammo efficient.

(the actual number of missiles subsequently hitting was still randomized)

Pretty much accurate except for the last bit. Basically, like normal streak SRMs, streak LRMs are an all-or-nothing proposition. Barring AMS, if they achieve lock, then ALL of the missiles will hit, no rolling on the cluster hits table to determine how many actually impact the target. However, they do still inflict damage in 5-point groups just like standard LRMs.

Streak LRMs can't use any special munitions and can only fire directly. Like all Clan LRMs, they have no minimum range.

Juodas Varnas, on 10 August 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

I'd rather get MRMs.
No lock-on, just a whole f*ckton (up to 40 missiles per salvo) of missiles.

Volume of fire, motherf*ckers.

Personally, I've found MRMs to be less than stellar. There are two reasons for this:

The first is that, like rocket launchers, MRMs are dumbfire weapons and impose a +1 penalty to the target number to hit. I've found that, unless you're using veteran or elite pilots, this causes far too many misses. This can be mitigated by Apollo fire control (it attaches to MRM launchers like Artemis for SRMs and LRMs), but that has a drawback of its own: it gives you a penalty on the cluster hits roll, meaning you're giving up some of your throw weight for accuracy. Since the massive number of missiles is one of the selling points for LRMs, well...

The other issue is the range brackets. Short range for MRMs is only out to 3 hexes (90 meters). Unless you've managed to close to point-blank with your opponent without getting shot up, you're almost always going to find yourself using medium or long range modifiers, resulting in fewer hits (especially if you're also taking the +1 modifier for the MRMs themselves).

There is one special case in which I think MRMs are viable and even good: in a C3 lance/company. If the C3 spotter can get within 3 hexes of the enemy, then suddenly MRMs become much more vicious. The MRM-boating unit can be up to 15 hexes out and still get short range modifiers while unleashing hell.

Edited by Wrayeth, 10 August 2015 - 08:09 AM.

[Nightshade24]

Juodas Varnas, on 10 August 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

I'd rather get MRMs.
No lock-on, just a whole f*ckton (up to 40 missiles per salvo) of missiles.

Volume of fire, motherf*ckers.

What about clan Streak MRM's? .=P

[Juodas Varnas]

Nightshade24, on 10 August 2015 - 06:09 PM, said:

What about clan Streak MRM's? .=P

Non-existent.
Anyone who says otherwise is wrong and will get a chair thrown at them.

[Nightshade24]

Juodas Varnas, on 10 August 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

Non-existent.
Anyone who says otherwise is wrong and will get a chair thrown at them.

ah... the jokes of 2001 slips by... should remember it's 2015 now =l.

"Streak MRM's is an old MW2-4 inside joke in NZ on what an ATM with only HE ammo is. Technically it would be an artemis MRM but that is less fun to say...


Speaking of which... are rocket launchers ever gonna be added to MW: O? I want to 1 shot kill assaults in my locust....

[Kinski Orlawisch]

One of the best TT gamer I know used the Archer with 2 LRM20 in all games.

[ice trey]

LRMs have the following:

-Flight time is irrelevant, yes.
-The range is up to 21 hexes using standard rules, equating to 630 meters. During closed beta, LRMs had this range for a little while, which was nice.
-LRMs fire at the target like any other weapons system.
-LRMs have a "Minimum range", making it increasingly harder to hit from 6 hexes inward.
-LRMs, like SRMs, count as cluster weapons. They deal damage in packs of 5. They also roll on the hit location table. On average, about 60% of the missiles fired hit. For example, with an LRM20, you can expect to do a 5-point, a 5-point, and a 2-point attack, in that order, against an opponent.
-Indirect fire is possible, but very difficult to pull off against anything that isn't at least in medium range and isn't a building.
-Their usefulness goes up as an opponent starts having opened armor locations. Crits are checked each time a pack of damage hits an area. Whether a 20 point AC20 round or a single 1-point LRM cluster, you check for crits once.

[wanderer]

How you can tell oldschool BT players: They'll tell you a spotter can't shoot and spot.

(The most recent rulebook-which is nearing a decade old-removed the restriction on spotters firing.)

LRMs in TT are an interesting middle ground. They don't erode huge chunks of armor, but chip respectable pieces off random locations and usually get multiple chances to crit on each launcher. They're not massive heat, nor are they trivial amounts.

They need far less ammo and tubes to get the job one vs. TT and are much more efficient vs. AC/Gauss/Lasers than MWO as nobody can repeatedly, easily hit the same location. And as noted above, all kinds of fun with specialty ammo. Crits also work differently- they're not based on how much damage you do,meaning a single LRM can crit out three different parts of a holed left torso.