33 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

wanderer, on 25 August 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

They need far less ammo and tubes to get the job one vs. TT and are much more efficient vs. AC/Gauss/Lasers than MWO as nobody can repeatedly, easily hit the same location. And as noted above, all kinds of fun with specialty ammo. Crits also work differently- they're not based on how much damage you do,meaning a single LRM can crit out three different parts of a holed left torso.

depends on the rule set - i really like the Advanced Critical Hits and Damage Rule from Tactical Handbook.

The usually way to shoot weapons in STD TW rules is to fire - big damage weapons like PPCs, Gauss and HACs and VHACs first, those that create multiple hits like Cluster Rounds; SRMs; LRMS - Laser Arrays second.

With the other rule light damage 5 and below got a reduced chance to deal a critical hit - while its the same for weapons dealing 6 or more damage - but you only need a 6 or 7 to create a critical hit using AC 20 or Gauss.

This way LRMs are equal to the usage in MWO: use the missiles to remove armor - use the big cannon to crit.

[SpiralFace]

wanderer, on 25 August 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

How you can tell oldschool BT players: They'll tell you a spotter can't shoot and spot.

(The most recent rulebook-which is nearing a decade old-removed the restriction on spotters firing.)

They did, but with a +1 to both the firing mech, AND the spotter if you decide to do it, It really isn't worth it if you do. (As you accumulate enough modifiers through moving both targets to effectively nullify their usefulness. )

Its still only really worth it to use indirect fire utilizing infantry spotters, as they accumulate no modifier for moving, and their weapons tend to be so short range that it doesn't matter if they fire or not.

[Anyone00]

O.K. tell me if I'm understanding this correctly: LRMs in the MechWarrior video games (not just MW:O) work more like semi-guided LRMs on TT. If they were be made to work like how they are envisioned on the TT: LRMs wouldn't 'lock-on' but come up with a 'firing solution'; i.e. the target reticent does what it does now, a volley of LRMs is let loose, they go though a brief initial course correction and then their path is terminal, that path ending in the estimated point where it was calculated the target mech would be if they didn't change course and speed, and the LRMs would move as fast as a ballistic round without the target mech getting a warning. So it would be like being shot at by a bunch of LB2-X rounds that follow an approximate parabolic trajectory that automatically goes for an estimated destination.

[SpiralFace]

Semi-guided LRM's supported by C3 and completely not accounting for speed.

Indirect fire in TT is difficult to accomplish. You need a spotter, but you add the to-hit modifiers of both the spotter + the mechs based on range + movement.

So in indirect fire cases, if two mechs both ran, and are both at medium range, one out of LOS with LRM's, one inside LOS and spotting, Even against a stationary target in the open, you are looking at a +8 modifier to hit.

As you add both mechs movement mods (+2 each) both of their range mods as if they where firing (+2 each) And the REAL kicker, is that even this is assuming that the spotter is not firing. If he is spotting while firing weapons, its an additional +1 for each mech's firing weapons.

Even Semi guided LRM's REQUIRE TAG on the spotters behalf to benefit from their perks. MWO LRM's are even easier then those.

They don't fire as fast as ballistics though. Missiles are inherently slower then ballistic projectiles. (oherwise it would be next to impossible to see with the naked eye.) The thing is that both SRM's and LRM's in Battletech (unlike MWO) have onboard guidance systems that allow them to "semi lock" onto moving targets for better accuracy.

MW4 and the sim pods carry this trait better then the "deadfire" missiles you see in MWO. But MWO also makes hard lock indirect fire MUCH easier then it should be in-universe.

[Anyone00]

So if the LRM attacking mech can't plant itself in place for a fair amount of time and if the target isn't NARC'ed: don't bother.
And the NARC practically requires a suicide run by a fast mech, may not hit due to the the to hit modifiers from movement of both the NARC'er and NARC'ie, and EMC can just nullify the NARC beacon.

[SpiralFace]

Narc does nothing for semi guided missiles.

In Battletech TT, Missile tubes can be loaded with different types of munitions based on their load out.

On the SRM side, this tends to come down to either standard SRM munitions, or "inferno" rounds (think modernized Napalm.)

On the LRM side, there are even more types of munitions, but the big thing to remember is that you MUST match the munitions you are intending to carry with what you are attempting to do on the battlefield.

• Standard LRM's are just cheap to produce, so they are good for campaign play.
  
• Artimis LRM's are LRM's SPECIFICALLY meant to work with the Artimis launchers. (This is actuallly present in MWO.)
  
• NARC LRM's are LRM's specifically made to home in on NARC beacons.
  
• Semiguided LRM's are designed to take advantage of the "TAG" system (which typically, TAG was more of an "artillery spotting" piece of equipment.
  
• Thunder LRM's do no damage, instead laying micro minefields down across areas of terrain.

In TT, Any of these missiles except Artemis missiles could be loaded into any standard LRM launcher. But you are essentially "caped" at what kind of synergy build you can acquire from them.

This is to prevent bonus' from cascading out of control in TT when there are so many LRM mutators out there, but typically in a TT tournament environment, this is where list building comes in, because you can build out a fighting force around particular pieces of equipment, but you can't just let the bonus' just run away on you.

But this is because Battletech is a Table Top wargame that focuses on ARMY building, not individual mechs. MWO is a FPS so there for, these mechanics have to be adjusted to better fit the FPS environment, because all the special munitions are depended on OTHER mechs taking the right kind of equipment to be effective. Which would be a nightmare in MWO. So they allow for everything to be looped together because of it.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Ah, the joys of special ammo
There is Thunder ammunition. Really situational ammo, but in the right terrain or against an opponent who is not paying attention a couple well placed 20 point Thunder LRM mine fields create havoc. Of course blundering into one's own mines in a fight can be as hilarious as it is embarrassing. Thunder-Active even targets jumping units, though the ammo count gets cut in half and that hurts on larger launchers. LRMs, RL, and MRMs are equally useful for removing of said mines.
Swarm and Swarm-I ammo is equally evil for multiple units in the same hex or adjacent hexes to the target. Many players do not group their 'Mechs and ground forces like that if they can help it though, but the extra to-hit rolls give a chance to not waste missed missiles or even whole shots. They will chain down entire firing lines as the secondary target becomes the primary target if any missiles are left over and so on. Swarms will not hit the same target twice. Regular Swarms have bad FF issues if you like to use melee 'Mechs.
Incendiary LRMs will have a good chance to light flammable areas on fire if they hit the target. They can even be combined with other ammo types for any launchers bigger than a 5 at the cost of that launcher functioning one size smaller.
Fragmentation LRMs are devastating to conventional infantry, but useless (0 damage) against everything else.
Flare LRMs are strange, they will light up the target hex and anything in a 3 hex radius (38 hexes total) for a number of turns equal to the size of the launcher divided by 5, but do no damage.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 07 September 2015 - 01:29 PM.

[Erkki]

When it comes to raw damage output per invested ton(accountning for ammo and heat too), the Artemis-LRM15 and Artemis-LRM20 are better than the other long range weapons. Worst downsides are the longish min range and the way enemy ECM denies the Artemis bonus(so dont use Artemis LRM against Capellans... or WoB).

Indirect fire can be very powerful, especially when LRMs are carried by cheap, low, easy to hide vehicle platforms and the spotters are infantry or battle armor (no penalties for spotter movement).

LRMs also have alternative ammunition such as Swarm(missing missiles attempts to hit units adjacent to target, all of them), Swarm-I(the same but avoids friendlies), Artemis, NARC, Smoke, semi-guided(follows TAG), Thunder(mines) and so forth. Carrying even some of them can give an army abilities that cant be acquired by other means and that can be game changing directly or just through their presence on the battlefield.

Because of the clustered damage, minimum range and limited ammo, gauss, ERPPC and such remain better long and medium range weapons overall, but mixed with them and/or in support role and used right with thought-out force composition and plan, the LRMs are fearsome in TT.

[wolf74]

In MWO we have the Most powerful LRM Ammo ever seen in Battletech universe. Due to the fact it works with Artimus, Narc and Tag Lasers.

IN Battletech:
Standard LRM/SRM Ammo, Does not get bonus with Tag Lasers, Artimus FCS, or Narc Beacons.

Artimus LRM/SRM Ammo, Does not work with Tag Lasers or Narc Becons, and Loses their Bonus if they go through an ECM Field

Narc LRM/SRM Ammo, Can be Fired out of Artimus Equipped LRM system but does not get Artimus Bonus, Don't not work with Tag Lasers, Loses Narc Bonus if inside an ECM Field

Semi-Guild LRMs (3058 tech) , Don’t work with Narc beacons, Can be Fire out of Artimus Equipped LRM system but does not get Artimus Bonus, Loses Tag Laser bonus if inside an Angel ECM Area

Inferno LRM/SRM, Does not get any bonus, sets the target on fire has a Much high chance of Cooking off in your Mech if your over heating

DF-LRMs/SRM (Dumb Fire LRMS) Do double the Damage as other LRMs but cannot have any Tracking or Flight correction ( In MWO we have DF-SRM but Not the Damage Bonus from them which was 50% more Damage than Normal SRMs)

Torpedo LRM/SRM can only be Use Underwater.

Edited by wolf74, 13 November 2015 - 06:30 PM.

[TheSilken]

Play against a Kraken 3 that has 8 Clan LRM-15s on TT and see how it goes. That thing one shots Assault mechs when those LRMs connect properly.

[Strum Wealh]

TheSilken, on 13 November 2015 - 07:15 PM, said:

Play against a Kraken 3 that has 8 Clan LRM-15s on TT and see how it goes. That thing one shots Assault mechs when those LRMs connect properly.

"If/when the LRMs connect" is part of the issue, though.

Remember, in BattleTech, one rolls 2D6 on the Cluster Hits Table to determine how many missiles connect at all, and then rolls 2D6 on the Hit Locations Table to see where those missiles land on the target.
Have a look at the Cluster Hits Table and the Hit Locations Table, then have a look at the 2D6 result probabilities (see here and here).

For the most part, any given LRM salvo has a ~60% hit rate (that is, only ~60% of the missiles fired from any launcher will actually connect with a target at all), and those missiles that do connect are generally most likely to hit across the torsos and/or the legs (which are usually the most heavily-armored parts of a 'Mech).

So, that Kraken 3, firing all of its launchers (eight LRM-15s, or 120 missiles) at a stationary target is generally hitting with only ~60% of those missiles (~72 missiles), and those hits are generally spread out across 3-5 body sections (any of LL, LT, CT, RT, and RL). And there still being a good chance that some of those missiles may go to the other body sections (LA (two results), RA (two results), and Head), further spreading out the damage.

Barring already being moderately-to-heavily damaged and/or being attacked from behind, most Assault 'Mechs (and many Heavy 'Mechs, and even a few Medium 'Mechs) could weather such an attack.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 19 November 2015 - 08:21 AM.

[Rush Maguin]

LRMs are excellent tactical weapons if they're appropriately supported. Some 'mechs, like the Cobra and 3025 era Longbow, have hilariously thin armor just because their job is to hide and lob LRMs at the enemy. Indirect LRM fire is one of my favorite tactics in the tabletop, and all of my force builds have significant LRM presence. There are also specialty munitions for LRMs in the TT, too. Given how whiny people are about lrms in MWO though, I don't expect to ever see them.

[Lollicus]

Because of the tactical turn base nature of the game, it is very powerful to be able to have a mech that you can declare to be stationary early in the movement sequence.