42 replies to this topic

[Takashi Uchida]

Why? Big gun robots go boom!

Is that a sufficient answer?

[UndeadEdd]

Hit the Deck, on 02 August 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

I've mentioned about this before. The Alpha from that build you mentioned is great but it's also hot and the weapon speed doesn't synergy well with each other.

And I'll point out, again, that you should fire the AC20's one after another, half a second apart, not together. Also, the 2LPL synergize very well as they provide you with a powerful insta-hit weapon that allows you to deal that last extra bit of damage to fast moving targets and poke at targets outside your AC's effective range. At close range, the difference between the AC20 slug's travel time and the lasers is very low.

Anyway, give it a few more tries. If you don't like it, it's your choice after all. No point forcing yourself to use a build you don't like.

Edited by UndeadEdd, 03 August 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Maybe I'm strange, maybe my career mechanic self is shining through here a bit, but I really don't like UACs. I'd just as soon toss 4x AC/5 on the KGC, ERLLs, and use the four tons I saved for even more heat sinks or ammo. OR BOTH. AC/5 fire rate is still good, and with 4 of 'em, that's fine by me. I'll give up the higher fire rate, in order to never have to worry about JAMMING, which never fails to show up ONLY when I have a good shot lined up, and cost me a dazzling victory. That sort of thing.

Thought about a dual-Gauss KGC. Maybe later. I'm not the best Gauss sniper, y'know. Still takes me too long to line up my shot, though I've got the charge timing down. Also built one, just for kicks in Training Grounds, with 6x AC/2. That gun isn't as fun as it was a year ago, but it still throws some heat at range when all six are firing in two chains, staggered from one another.

BUT OVERALL, I hate AC/20 for its slow projectile and rate of fire and horrible ammo efficiency. AC/10 or LB-10X for hard-hitters, or multiple AC/5 for range. Makes me happy.

But I'm not a meta guy, and I lose a lot. So maybe don't listen to me about this.

[Hit the Deck]

UndeadEdd, on 03 August 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

And I'll point out, again, that you should fire the AC20's one after another, half a second apart, not together.

I also already commented this before that if you stagger/chain fire the dual AC/20 then it's the same as a quad UAC/5 because they do the same damage: 20 + 20 = 4*5 + 4*5. The quad UAC/5 doesn't have 2LPL though but it has faster recycle time and cooler, hence its ability to suppress the target.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

People do it because of the high alpha and I suspect canonicity, even though the game is dominated by mechs all going 80kph+ and with longer range weaponry... pretty much why people tend to prefer (U)AC5 or Gauss builds which actually remain relevant outside 300m.

I also have to really question people saying they're better because of accuracy or some other thing. This isn't tabletop. If any thing, a rapid-fire weapon is more forgiving. If you're chain firing the AC20s you have to work with that slow projectile speed that makes stacking the shots basically impossible at optimal, except against anything but the largest and slowest targets.. which are even easier to ventilate with UAC5s.

[UndeadEdd]

vnlk65n, on 04 August 2015 - 01:13 AM, said:

People do it because of the high alpha and I suspect canonicity, even though the game is dominated by mechs all going 80kph+ and with longer range weaponry... pretty much why people tend to prefer (U)AC5 or Gauss builds which actually remain relevant outside 300m.

I also have to really question people saying they're better because of accuracy or some other thing. This isn't tabletop. If any thing, a rapid-fire weapon is more forgiving. If you're chain firing the AC20s you have to work with that slow projectile speed that makes stacking the shots basically impossible at optimal, except against anything but the largest and slowest targets.. which are even easier to ventilate with UAC5s.

Just remember that with 4UAC5 you need to keep staring at the enemy and hope that he keeps standing in the open, staring back at you, allowing you to hit the same component. This means you keep exposing yourself to enemy fire, allowing them to keep hitting your CT, and if your enemy torso-twists then good luck hitting that same component. With 2AC20+2LPL you need a very short "stare", no more than a second for every ~3 seconds of cooldown.
Also, if you look at the "maximal possible DPS" in Smurfy's weapons lab (in the mech lab) you'll see that with 2AC20+2LPL you get a slightly better value, even if you take into account the UAC's double-tap which adds, on average, 25% DPS (as far as I can tell). By the time you overheat (after about 4-5 full salvos), you will have done around 300 damage, which is more than enough to kill anything, if you have a decent aim.
Additionally, note that it takes the UAC5 about the same time, if not longer, to hit a target at its maximum effective range as it takes the AC20. The 2LPL hit instantly.

P.S.
Before you accuse people of favoring a weapon for the "canonicity" and "tabletop", please note that I'm a vetran founder with an "Ace Of Spades", so I have the "paperwork" to prove my skill and experience with this game

Edited by UndeadEdd, 04 August 2015 - 10:18 AM.

[Kotzi]

Because not everybody follow the meta. Maybe they prefer having fun more than being forced to minmax their loadout.

[IronLichRich]

Takashi Uchida, on 02 August 2015 - 10:49 PM, said:

Why? Big gun robots go boom!

Is that a sufficient answer?

This guy gets it.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

UndeadEdd, on 04 August 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

Just remember that with 4UAC5 you need to keep staring at the enemy and hope that he keeps standing in the open, staring back at you, allowing you to hit the same component. This means you keep exposing yourself to enemy fire, allowing them to keep hitting your CT, and if your enemy torso-twists then good luck hitting that same component. With 2AC20+2LPL you need a very short "stare", no more than a second for every ~3 seconds of cooldown.
Also, if you look at the "maximal possible DPS" in Smurfy's weapons lab (in the mech lab) you'll see that with 2AC20+2LPL you get a slightly better value, even if you take into account the UAC's double-tap which adds, on average, 25% DPS (as far as I can tell). By the time you overheat (after about 4-5 full salvos), you will have done around 300 damage, which is more than enough to kill anything, if you have a decent aim.
Additionally, note that it takes the UAC5 about the same time, if not longer, to hit a target at its maximum effective range as it takes the AC20. The 2LPL hit instantly.

P.S.
Before you accuse people of favoring a weapon for the "canonicity" and "tabletop", please note that I'm a vetran founder with an "Ace Of Spades", so I have the "paperwork" to prove my skill and experience with this game

The problem really is not paper DPS, it's that AC20 KGCs are both outranged and outmaneuvered by just about everything.

Even if the UAC KGC has slightly lower DPS, it's capable of projecting that DPS to the fullest extent out to a range that overlaps CERML and CLPLs. Whether the UAC shells take slightly longer to hit at their optimal is really immaterial.

By packing AC20s you are resigning yourself to being the lowest common denominator of map control. You have outstanding short range firepower, but there will be instances where you are simply kited and picked off by faster mechs with longer range weapons simply because you have no serious capacity to defend yourself beyond brawling distance.

I also don't see what relevance achievements or being a veteran founder is. Rubber stamping your posts isn't an argument.

[Kiiyor]

Bows3r, on 31 July 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

DPS & PPFLD in a Brawl. A Dual AC/20 King Crab will beat any other King Crab in a brawl. Barring a dead-sided Atlas-Crab, which has even less range then a Dual 20 King Crab.

I dunno... I can't see anything matching the sustainability of Quad Ultra Dakka. 4 UAC5's can strip a torso horrifyingly quickly.

The 20's can be great at closer range, but if your target is armored and canny enough to spread damage, you'll hit a heat wall quicker than they will, especially if you're trying to Hail Mary them with both at once.

[McHoshi]

2 AC/20 2 MPL makes much fun and big damage...

... just come around... i´ll wait for you

[Daniloff]

I just don't fire both AC20s at the same time. I have not had any ghost heat issues.

[DivineEvil]

Why, nobody forces you to fire them simultaneously all the time. Of course it is beneficial to falcon-punch some cocky Medium to make his reconsider his unsupported bravery. But in more common brawls, where you wait for the right moment to come in hard, you just fire them in turn. This will make them more accurate due to one-vector convergence, and anyone who is stupid enough to keep facing this "heavy-weight boxer" monster will inevitably perish. And unlike JM6's, the King has all the potential extra space for good heat dissipation or secondary weapons you would like to have. You can even run in on XLs, since you'll most likely to be cored, and very few pilots will have a courage to face you on their own anyway.

4xUAC/5 KGC is the same beast for sure, but just not as reliable, and revered for it's raw supressing effect, not the ability to cut enemy numbers short as fast as 2xAC20 one.

[Valkyrie73]

I run mine with an xl325 ac40 1erl and 9.5t ammo. I find that it works best for me and is actually my best mech with a kdr over 2.

[UndeadEdd]

vnlk65n, on 04 August 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

The problem really is not paper DPS, it's that AC20 KGCs are both outranged and outmaneuvered by just about everything.

So are many other mechs, so people should stop using powerful short range weapons on slow mechs? This is a scientifically proven fact? Well then I guess I should rebuild my KGC-000 and Atlas D-DC with their short range weapons and nearly 3 KDR each, because I'm obviously doing it wrong!

vnlk65n, on 04 August 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

Even if the UAC KGC has slightly lower DPS, it's capable of projecting that DPS to the fullest extent out to a range that overlaps CERML and CLPLs. Whether the UAC shells take slightly longer to hit at their optimal is really immaterial.

Again, you're forgetting that you need to keep a constant stream of UAC5 shots to keep up that DPS, a stream which puts you in greater danger and is easy to avoid, especially at the weapon's maximum effective range (MER). Also, you're the one who said that AC20 slugs take too long to hit at MER ("If you're chain firing the AC20s you have to work with that slow projectile speed that makes stacking the shots basically impossible at optimal"), and now you're saying that it's immaterial? Please make up your mind.

vnlk65n, on 04 August 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

By packing AC20s you are resigning yourself to being the lowest common denominator of map control. You have outstanding short range firepower, but there will be instances where you are simply kited and picked off by faster mechs with longer range weapons simply because you have no serious capacity to defend yourself beyond brawling distance.

You've just stated the obvious - people need to work with their mechs' advantages and disadvantages. A 4UAC5 build, for example, will be easily shot-up by fast mechs that will just pop out, shoot and hide. This way, your DPS will drop dramatically, as you won't be able to keep up a steady stream of shots.

vnlk65n, on 04 August 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

I also don't see what relevance achievements or being a veteran founder is. Rubber stamping your posts isn't an argument.

Well, you implied that I and others have no idea what we're talking about when we support the AC20 build because we do it just for the "canonicity" and "tabletop". I just proved that I have a lot of experience with this game and good skills, which is more than you have to back up your silly claim.

Better luck with your baseless arguments next time

Edited by UndeadEdd, 04 August 2015 - 11:19 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Using a quad uac/5 doesn't mean that you have to stream fire it, you just can if you want to. An alpha of quad ac is equivalent to a single shot of ac/20.

[Ukos]

For me the dual AC20 works better as there is an intimidation effect and if you need to catch a fleeting target bet to drop 20 points in one place and leg them then try and nibble with U/AC5's.
I have tried the ultra fives and you just don't have the upfront dps to do damage and twist to mitigate or duck into cover.
On my brawl KC I run 2xAC20 and 2 large pulse lasers, only down side to my spec is I only have 35 shots with the 20's, but when I am playing sensibly and not goofing off or acting as a landing pad for every lost lrm on the enemy team it works well.
Its just remembering to fight sensibly you dont see boxers swinging double punches all the time same with the 20's give them a left right combo and profit.

But I will admit it is a 60 / 40 split for me to run my Guass KC vs my Brawling KC

Edited by Ukos, 05 August 2015 - 01:14 AM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

UndeadEdd, on 04 August 2015 - 11:12 PM, said:

So are many other mechs, so people should stop using powerful short range weapons on slow mechs? This is a scientifically proven fact? Well then I guess I should rebuild my KGC-000 and Atlas D-DC with their short range weapons and nearly 3 KDR each, because I'm obviously doing it wrong!

I think it's logical that when half the mechs in the game are boating weapons with optimal ranges in excess of 400m, and move nearly twice as fast as the mech in question, playing a short range game makes you exceptionally easy to counter. That's really simple logic.

Quote

Again, you're forgetting that you need to keep a constant stream of UAC5 shots to keep up that DPS, a stream which puts you in greater danger and is easy to avoid, especially at the weapon's maximum effective range (MER). Also, you're the one who said that AC20 slugs take too long to hit at MER ("If you're chain firing the AC20s you have to work with that slow projectile speed that makes stacking the shots basically impossible at optimal"), and now you're saying that it's immaterial? Please make up your mind.

I've made up my mind. I run three of my KGCs with gauss rifles and one with UACs.

It's immaterial because a UAC KGC is still doing what.. probably 10x more damage at 600m than a AC20 KGC with LPLs? It's immaterial because an AC20 KGC is completely incapable of trading fire at that range (600m), period. Furthermore, leading targets at the effective range of the AC20 with the UAC is trivial except against the fastest mechs.

Quote

You've just stated the obvious - people need to work with their mechs' advantages and disadvantages. A 4UAC5 build, for example, will be easily shot-up by fast mechs that will just pop out, shoot and hide. This way, your DPS will drop dramatically, as you won't be able to keep up a steady stream of shots.

Some advantages pay greater dividends than others.

Some disadvantages, like low range, increase other disadvantages, like low speed. A DWF can be slow because it inevitably boats enough long range weaponry to outshoot any conceivable foe at the large majority of engagement ranges. That simply isn't so in an AC20 KGC.

An AC20 KGC is just as susceptible to people poking it, the difference is that beyond 400m people don't have to poke anymore, they can just sit in the open and rock back and forth to juke your AC20 shots that are heavily into falloff. In the same scenario a UAC can easily suppress and force them to relocate. A gauss KGC will kill outright.

While all 100t mechs are going to be slow, ones that take long range weaponry are capable of fighting effectively at the optimum ranges of some of the most common weapons in the game.

Quote

Well, you implied that I and others have no idea what we're talking about when we support the AC20 build because we do it just for the "canonicity" and "tabletop". I just proved that I have a lot of experience with this game and good skills, which is more than you have to back up your silly claim.

Better luck with your baseless arguments next time

First of all, I even said that specific statement was only a guess. Obviously many people prefer AC20s for their frontloaded damage, which was the first half of that sentence fyi. It's my opinion that trading that much range simply isn't worth it considering how many maps tend to force 500m+ engagements.

As far as baseless arguments, buying a veterans founders pack is no indication experience, and if it is, then clearly I have more, what with being both a legendary founder and owner of every champion preorder mech except the griffon and wolverine \o/. Look at how skilled I am with a credit card!

Might as well point out that since I average more likes per post, I must make better arguments, huh?

Edited by vnlk65n, 05 August 2015 - 09:04 PM.

[UndeadEdd]

vnlk65n, on 05 August 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

I think it's logical that when half the mechs in the game are boating weapons with optimal ranges in excess of 400m, and move nearly twice as fast as the mech in question, playing a short range game makes you exceptionally easy to counter. That's really simple logic.

It would have made sense to use long range only, if the maps were flat and open, which they aren't. In spite of the "really simple logic", the facts are that my 2AC20+2LPL build has a KDR of 2.88. Not too bad for a big, slow and short ranged mech.

vnlk65n, on 05 August 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

I've made up my mind. I run three of my KGCs with gauss rifles and one with UACs.</p>

Three KGC with Gauss? Sounds like a lot of variation and fun... I'm not criticizing your dislike for short range weapons, just proving that at short range they're much better.

vnlk65n, on 05 August 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

It's immaterial because a UAC KGC is still doing what.. probably 10x more damage at 600m than a AC20 KGC with LPLs? It's immaterial because an AC20 KGC is completely incapable of trading fire at that range (600m), period. Furthermore, leading targets at the effective range of the AC20 with the UAC is trivial except against the fastest mechs.

Not arguing whether trading fire at 600m using AC20 makes any sense but leading targets at ~300m with 4UAC? Good luck with that! Due to weapon convergence you will probably miss with at least one of your arms.Also, you'll have to keep leading the target accurately all the time to keep up the DPS. With AC20 you can lead and fire with one arm at a time, eventually hitting with each and requiring only momentary accuracy. Some light mech pilots learned the hard way that they can't avoid my AC20 slugs by running around me...

vnlk65n, on 05 August 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

Some advantages pay greater dividends than others.
Some disadvantages, like low range, increase other disadvantages, like low speed. A DWF can be slow because it inevitably boats enough long range weaponry to outshoot any conceivable foe at the large majority of engagement ranges. That simply isn't so in an AC20 KGC.
An AC20 KGC is just as susceptible to people poking it, the difference is that beyond 400m people don't have to poke anymore, they can just sit in the open and rock back and forth to juke your AC20 shots that are heavily into falloff. In the same scenario a UAC can easily suppress and force them to relocate. A gauss KGC will kill outright.

Once again, this would have been true if the maps were flat and open. Once again you show you're making baseless arguments.
If a light mech pokes out and eats an AC20 slug to the face they tend not to poke out anymore. With UAC5 some of your shots will miss due to the convergence issue.

vnlk65n, on 05 August 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

While all 100t mechs are going to be slow, ones that take long range weaponry are capable of fighting effectively at the optimum ranges of some of the most common weapons in the game.

And at close range they lose. And if you know how to pilot your mech around the map in most cases you will be able to engage the enemy at short range, even with a slow assault mech.

vnlk65n, on 05 August 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

First of all, I even said that specific statement was only a guess. Obviously many people prefer AC20s for their frontloaded damage, which was the first half of that sentence fyi. It's my opinion that trading that much range simply isn't worth it considering how many maps tend to force 500m+ engagements.

As far as baseless arguments, buying a veterans founders pack is no indication experience, and if it is, then clearly I have more, what with being both a legendary founder and owner of every champion preorder mech except the griffon and wolverine \o/. Look at how skilled I am with a credit card!</p>

You implied that people like me don't know what they're talking about when they support an AC20 build. I proved you wrong. Being a Founder implies having played the game for a few years. Having the Ace Of Spades implies being skilled (and lucky...). Having a 2.88 KDR with my build implies the same. Anyway, my point is not to prove which build is best for all conditions as there is no such build (though it seems that you think yours is). The point was to advocate the use of an AC20 build, for the specific advantages that it has. Of course, if all maps were flat and open as you seem to think, the AC20 build would be "Dead on Arrival". If you think that most maps "force" a 500m+ then you don't know how to pilot a slow short ranged mech on such maps. Sometime you need to sit out part of the fight or find alternative ways to close the distance.

vnlk65n, on 05 August 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

Might as well point out that since I average more likes per post, I must make better arguments, huh?

If your posts here had more "likes" it would prove more public favor for your build, which is eventually a matter of taste. This would be beside the point as the point is that an AC20 build is very potent and far from being outperformed in any situation by a 4UAC build, as you suggested.

[xHAIRTRIGGERx]

I keep seeing it said that dual ac20 is better then quad ac5 because it is pin point damage this is now untrue, ac20 are now glorified shotguns they may fire a single projectile but on impact they explode and if any of the explosion hits more then one module, the damage is spread to that module aswell splitting the 20 damage based on how many modules it hits on large mechs is not as bad but it's still unpredictable and on mechs with tight hit boxes with different modules in close proximity that 20 damage turns into 5 damage spread to 3 or 4 modules and vs small mechs ac20s are all but worthless with this spread mechanic try hitting a light mech on 1 module with any weapon if they are moving at there normal 130+kph there's almost no chance and that means you are doing 20 damage spread between mutipul modules making ac20s all but pointless they are to heavy they generate to much heat even on staggered fire also you can't carry much ammo and the damage spreads to much to be effective. They stated both pre nerf and post nerf that they wanted to take the teeth away from the ac20 and they accomplished that. Maybe having one on a Yager or something but having dual ac20s as your primary damage weapons is pointless there damage now spreads to easily and is truly unpredictable making the weapon a circus side show that should be used for entertainment not true game play

Edited by xHAIRTIGGERx, 03 August 2016 - 09:23 AM.