122 replies to this topic

[Slow and Decrepit]

Deathlike, on 31 July 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

I don't think you remember what exactly happened to the Victor.

Due to a certain Paulconomist, they got overnerfed... they had the "effectiveness" of an Atlas.

The thing was that they were considered "too effective" (this was more relative to the meta @ the time, not so much the mech itself).

Most builds used a large XL engine... when you considered how the engine system works in MWO, it translated into significant agility gains.

In the request to "decouple" the engine from all the relevant stats... they would have the same capability REGARDLESS of the engine.. thus reducing the need to keep upping the engine (although, I'm sure the tonnage would be used for something else instead).

Besides, anyone with a brain knows that making Victors as "mobile" as an Atlas is a terrible idea, and the person most responsible should feel terrible.

And we are letting the one who thought it was a good idea to make it turn as slow as a Atlas, the same one running this change? If that's the case, you all are far worse than can be believed! You trust "HIM"? Did someone hit you upside your head with a bat?

[OznerpaG]

1453 R, on 31 July 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

BattleTechnology lesson: 'engine size', in BattleTech, refers to how much power the reactor can output. This power is in the form of electricity - the reactor doesn't output magical reactor juice that runs the 'Mech's legs and the legs alone. It is a fridge-sized dynamo system, as I recall, stored inside the 'Mech.

So a larger engine would provide more total power, more wattage, which in turn allows more wattage to be supplied to the servos which actuate the 'Mech's movements, enabling those servos to work harder and actuate the 'Mech more quickly.

What did you think the engine was - a V100 connected to a bunch of crankshafts?

reality lesson - just because you have more power doesn't mean the recipient components of that power can handle more than what it's rated to use

yeah it's possible to pull 10g's in a 9g rated F-16, but you might break it or greatly reduce the aircraft's service life if you do, so it's forbidden

same can and should go for mech components for game balance purposes

[Deathlike]

Andi Nagasia, on 31 July 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

this also if decoupled from the Engine an under-preforming Mech could get better Turning/Ect,
to make it more desirable or balanced to other Mechs, i think it would help alot,
Edit-

Yes, that was the whole point of the request.

However, we can't have nice things.

beleneagle, on 31 July 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

And we are letting the one who thought it was a good idea to make it turn as slow as a Atlas, the same one running this change? If that's the case, you all are far worse than can be believed! You trust "HIM"? Did someone hit you upside your head with a bat?

Actually, there's fair bunch that don't trust said man. That's why skepticism and cynicism exists when he's involved.

The fact that he was promoted says more about what upper management thinks. I'd give him the pink slip personally, but it is what it is.

[Slow and Decrepit]

Last time those two people got together for balance it became the lowest common denominator. Not the pie in the sky crap their telling you! You have had way to much kool aid! If he had a real job, the owner would have fired them both!

Edited by beleneagle, 31 July 2015 - 06:52 PM.

[Deathlike]

beleneagle, on 31 July 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

Last time those two people got together for balance it became the lowest common denominator. Not the pie in the sky crap their telling you! You have had way to much kool aid!

Which two people? I only speak of one man.

TBH, there's something in the water over there in Vancouver...

Just remember, he's the same guy developing CW. Look how that turned out...

[Andi Nagasia]

Sadly this is still all Speculation until the PTS are open some time Next week,
then we will know what this Balance change is all about and what it has in it,

im assuming its ganna be a big change as Russ Said that they started it 2 months ago,
and that is self was almost 2-3 weeks ago, so im hoping for the best, Fingers Crossed

[Slow and Decrepit]

Thank you for letting me know. I was just about to spend more money on MC. Not a chance in hell now!

Deathlike, on 31 July 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

Which two people? I only speak of one man. (HIS BOSS)

TBH, there's something in the water over there in Vancouver...

Just remember, he's the same guy developing CW. Look how that turned out...

What else needs to be said? AND THE 2ND IS HIS BOSS

Andi Nagasia, on 31 July 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

Sadly this is still all Speculation until the PTS are open some time Next week,
then we will know what this Balance change is all about and what it has in it,

im assuming its ganna be a big change as Russ Said that they started it 2 months ago,
and that is self was almost 2-3 weeks ago, so im hoping for the best, Fingers Crossed

Damn there goes my main daily activity. I guess I'll have to find something else after they run off the remaining few that have any brains...

Edited by beleneagle, 31 July 2015 - 06:59 PM.

[Slow and Decrepit]

I notice that Bishop is quiet on this. I seem to remember him screaming about the changes to the Victor. I wonder if he's been paid off to keep quiet. Maybe that's how he got his Hurbie, hummmm....

[Deathlike]

beleneagle, on 31 July 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

I notice that Bishop is quiet on this. I seem to remember him screaming about the changes to the Victor. I wonder if he's been paid off to keep quiet. Maybe that's how he got his Hurbie, hummmm....

Bishop's happy the "red quirks" are gone.

However, I think he's been drooling over the Zeus since then.

[Andi Nagasia]

beleneagle, on 31 July 2015 - 06:58 PM, said:

Damn there goes my main daily activity. I guess I'll have to find something else after they run off the remaining few that have any brains...

like all things ill reserve my Judgment until i have the Facts,
no point in arguing something that we have no Knowledge of,

[1453 R]

ALL RIGHTY. Home from work, fed, and ready to educate!

So. Many folks are assuring me - assuring me! - that Quirks Are The Answer, and that of course a Blitzkrieg would be more mobile than a Centurion, and of course both of those would be more mobile than Timber Wolves, and everything will be fine 1453!

Heh, a'ight. New idea: let us, once more, compare two 'Mechs. These two, in fact:

CN9-D "Howard"

-vs-

CN9-D "Jacob"

All right. The assumption is that there is absolutely positively, beyond all doubt or deliberation, no possibility whatsoever of changing the Centurion's movement profile. We shall assume that a mastered CN9-D will move exactly like any other mastered CN9-D, with the sole exception of raw, straightline footspeed. Furthermore, the contest between the two is as scrupulously fair as I can really make it - both Howard and Jacob use Ferro, despite the fact that Howard would gain a significant boost to its firepower by dropping Ferro, upgrading one of its launchers, and adding a half-ton of SRM ammo after dropping to a 200STD and adding back the external PoorDub it would need. Nevertheless - both 'Mechs bear identical upgrades and armor levels.

Howard, with his 225STD, attains a maximum footspeed of 80.2kph w/Tweak - pretty zippy for the New Meta as proposed by the OP. Jacob, on the other hand, reaches a rather scorching 124.7kph w/Tweak - a forty-klick difference, over 50% faster than Howard. However...since this is the New Meta, Jacob does not twist, accelerate, decelerate, or turn one single degree or klick faster than Howard does. In fact, he turns slower - the same turnspeed applied to a much higher footspeed equates to significantly wider turns, forcing Jacob to slow down to Howard's speed if he wants to get the same turning radius.

What does that extra ~44 klicks buy Jacob?

It buys Jacob the ability to decide the time and location of the engagement - Howard is completely unable to catch Jacob, doesn't stand a bloody chance, and thusly Jacob can engage and disengage as he pleases. That's really awesome, right? Totally worth it!

Except...not. Yes, Jacob can choose the time and place of the engagement, but once that engagement actually starts, every single remaining advantage is Howard's. Howard greatly exceeds Jacob's firepower, with an extra sixteen damage of SRM rack available to him, and he's significantly more rugged due to his undying STD engine. Remember, Jacob is no longer able to outmaneuver Howard. He can't accel/decel any faster in order to make more effective use of cover and corner-pokery. He can't take tighter turns at higher speeds in order to confound Howard's aim or get to better positioning. He can't twist or juke around any faster than Howard can to spread damage more effectively.

Jacob is able to dictate the location and timing of any engagement between him and Howard - but Howard will always get the better of any engagement Jacob chooses to offer. Any fight between the two ends up as Howard's victory, because Jacob no longer has any advantage whatsoever in the actual shooting-each-other portion of the engagement. That monumental engine is a complete waste of space.

Now, you could tell me that Jacob would be an enormously better pursuit 'Mech, able to find and finish off weakened threats, so there! But here's the thing - that requires Jacob to pick on targets weaker than he is, that his team has already beaten up. Or, alternatively, it requires Jacob to find targets that aren't shooting back, either because they're ignoring him or because they're too wounded to shoot back properly. And as any competent MechWarrior knows, a 'Mech which requires its enemies to be unable to shoot back in order to be effective is a bad 'Mech.

Besides - this is the meta in which a 200STD becomes one of the best engines a Centurion can run. How many wounded targets are actually going to get away for Jacob to run down and finish off? At that level of complete lard-butt trudgery, it takes you the first ten minutes of every game just for the two teams to meet in the middle. Nobody's running away with a 200STD in their gut, and if they're not running away, then Howard has all the time he needs to finish his targets off himself.

So. Jacob is unable to defeat Howard in combat, and the meta itself does not give Jacob any wounded 'Mechs he can swoop down on and finish. Jacob is a sad, sad robot who has come to the realization that the incredihuge 390 engine cap he was gifted with is a handicap, not a benefit, and that he's going to have to strip down to that 200STD Howard's been bragging about if he wants to get any work done.

Proving that when all things are equal, a system such as the one proposed by the OP renders any increase in engine weight a liability, not a benefit. It costs you more than you can ever hope to gain to go faster. Sure, they might quirk you to Hell and back, but quirks are unstable and unreliable.

At the core of it? If you're a Jacob kind of guy, you're pretty much out in the cold.

Edited by 1453 R, 31 July 2015 - 07:24 PM.

[Mcgral18]

1453 R, on 31 July 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

Proving that when all things are equal, a system such as the one proposed by the OP renders any increase in engine weight a liability, not a benefit. It costs you more than you can ever hope to gain to go faster. Sure, they might quirk you to Hell and back, but quirks are unstable and unreliable.

[Slow and Decrepit]

This reminds me of the congressional check writing scandal of the 80's. The American public were so numb to it that they re-elected the same people that couldn't balance their own checking acct's to balance that of the county's! As long as Russ and Paul are at it, we might as well have two ml and 1 stick, while going 64.8 kph!

[Armorine]

This would wind up as a massive nerf to assaults. Lights are already hella hard to kill unless you catch them with their pants down in which case HSR usually punches your grandma. Why would I want a system where my battle masters and Altai are even more vulnerable to lights and mediums . Hah nope. Why would I ever waste tonnage on anything other then guns and armor again?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 31 July 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

ALL RIGHTY. Home from work, fed, and ready to educate!

If your comparison wasn't blatantly one sided because of the builds.
Better "Jacob"

Suddenly he isn't losing trades on firepower, and still has a 25kph advantage.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 31 July 2015 - 07:44 PM.

[Slow and Decrepit]

Armorine, on 31 July 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

This would wind up as a massive nerf to assaults. Lights are already hella hard to kill unless you catch them with their pants down in which case HSR usually punches your grandma. Why would I want a system where my battle masters and Altai are even more vulnerable to lights and mediums . Hah nope. Why would I ever waste tonnage on anything other then guns and armor again?

Well that sounds just like those two. I can't believe there people that are on the fence, and want to wait to see how it goes.... Just ask a Victor owner how it goes! And if you were there and your still saying that, then shame on you! You are too trusting of unworthy people, and you need to be put in the stockade for a week or two!

[Lightfoot]

It's Turn rate that matters more. I guess Twisting gives you a slightly longer time to shoot though.

It's a moot point if we just get a new version of Laser Vomit though. Does PGI think the Laser-Brawl is optimal or do they want long range to play more of a role? That would mean better LRMs and 1500 mps PPCs. That would not eliminate the value of Lasers, just remove them overwhelming all the other weapons.

[Slow and Decrepit]

He ruins everything he touches and gets a promotion! He should run for office! Just look at "The Great Victor Nerf/screw up", "Balance", "The Current State of CW". And you jokers want to wait and see? Wow, just wow!.....

Where is Bishop? Why hasn't he been in here? It's not like him to be quiet on something this big.....

[Armorine]

Bishops off doing bishop stuff.... Prolly murdering locusts and draining their blood so he can steal their essence

[Deathlike]

WM Quicksilver, on 31 July 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

If your comparison wasn't blatantly one sided because of the builds.
Better "Jacob"

Suddenly he isn't losing trades on firepower, and still has a 25kph advantage.

I think he's too hung up on things that don't matter vs things that actually matter.

Besides, who in their right mind runs a STD 200 when a 250+ engine is required in the current "trudub engine meta" (or more correctly, using a sub-250 engine when there are other options available)?

Edited by Deathlike, 31 July 2015 - 08:02 PM.