52 replies to this topic

[Antares102]

Very simple request.

Several times PGI has done some experimental and temporary changes to check whether they are feasible. My proposal would be to change the CER-PPC such that it does 15 points of damage to one zone again for a short period of time i.e. 1-2 weeks.

I KNOW that this was changes to the current system due to being overpowered.
HOWEVER, many IS mechs have received a lot of quirks that compensate for this.

Many changes are made and then kept even though they might be overtaken by events and never revoked. That's why it would be intesting to see if the CER-PPC would still be overpowered in the current system.

Edited by Antares102, 03 August 2015 - 11:11 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

While i at one point woulda loved that, I think this game really needs a reduction in damage output, not an increase. That hit reg fix they made, along with the PPC velocity buff really helped the validity of PPCs in general.

The issue really was hit reg over PPC dmg. We really dont need 60 point PPD alphas.....the game is crazy fast enough as it is with supposed, Damage over time lasers.......between quirks, hardpoint inflation, insanely fast Cool downs, and inflated damage values along with high ass heat caps, the damage output is just stupid....makes engagements last like 1 minute tops.....games are decided inside of 20-30 seconds from first contact.....

Makes the game actually insanely boring....you walk around the corner and your 100 ton assault mech melts...

WE are in these massive machines of war, armored to the teeth and yet we gotta cower in a foxhole like a WWII infantry man. This game plays more like a Human based FPS w/o the ability to crouch in cover vs a Mechwarrior game....

Assaults and heavies are supposed to lead a charge, be the bastion of defense or offense, yet with the damage output, no one can do anything...its poke out, melt....poke out, melt....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 03 August 2015 - 08:23 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

In fairness, Fandragon... in the tabletop game, one alpha without all that inflation was enough to melt a mech too, if the die rolled in your favor. Remember, we have hardpoint inflation, yes... but we also have double armor and internals per ton and quirks out the Wahoo. Mechs actually take a lot more hits to die than any of the systems they are based on. In tabletop, a single PPC or large laser is something to be feared.

[Aresye]

No amount of armor or weapon balancing is going to stop mechs from melting. That's just how focus fire works. 1v1 fights already last a long time.

Stop charging the firing line of a 12man team sitting in a superior position.

[El Bandito]

Antares102, on 03 August 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Very simple request.

Several times PGI has done some experimental and temporary changes to check whether they are feasible. My proposal would be to change the CER-PPC such that it does 15 points of damage to one zone again for a shor tperiod of time i.e. 1-2 weeks.

I KNOW that this was changes to the current system due to being overpowered.
HOWEVER, many IS mechs have received a lot of quirks that compensate for this.

Many changes are made and then kept even though they might be overtaken by events and never revoked. That's why it would be intesting to see if the CER-PPC would still be overpowered in the current system.

I heavily disagree. Clan tech and IS tech are supposed to be equal without relying quirks, under PGI's balance philosophy. Quirks should not be the answer to everything.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 August 2015 - 08:38 AM.

[Wrathful Scythe]

Make it 12-13 damge max. 15 damage is just to much and would break the balance.

While I wouldn't be totaly against it, the IS ERPPC would need a big buff for that to happen. Allowing to fire 3 of them without GH and reducing it's heat. The IS ERPPC is already way worse than our clan one, buffing it even further is kinda stupid.

[Paigan]

I'd rather the PPC to have a significantly higher chance of doing criticals than lasers.
Like lasers doing hardly any crits and PPCs having a relatively high chance.

[Mcgral18]

You could make it a quirk for the less gifted robot, who cannot feasibly mount multiples.


For example, an 8/8 bonus quirk for the Summoner (who has all of 1 E hardpoint and cannot Sword and Board ballistics in the Prime config), or perhaps the Ice Fridge Prime (who can't due to pod space, unless you go with half armour).



Spread implementation makes it weird though, it's just 25% damage to either side.

Weapon faction="Clan" HardpointAliases="Energy,LargeWeapon,PPC,ERPPC,ClanERPPC" name="ClanERPPC" id="1217">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanERPPC.dds" descTag="@ClanERPPC_desc" nameTag="@ClanERPPC"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0" speed="1200" lifetime="10" duration="0" tons="6" maxRange="1620" longRange="810" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="0" ammoType="" cooldown="4" heat="15.0" impulse="0.03" minheatpenaltylevel="3" heatpenalty="7.0" heatdamage="0" damage="10" numFiring="1" projectileclass="bullet" type="Energy" slots="2" Health="10" heatPenaltyID="1" EMP="4.0" splashPercent="0.25"/>

"splashPercent" being splash damage.

Paigan, on 03 August 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

I'd rather the PPC to have a significantly higher chance of doing criticals than lasers.
Like lasers doing hardly any crits and PPCs having a relatively high chance.

They're already far better at critting items; a single crit and it's gone, while lasers need dozens of crits to get 10 damage.


They can also crit any item with under 10 armour protecting it, because FLD crits are full damage.

[Antares102]

El Bandito, on 03 August 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

I heavily disagree. Clan tech and IS tech are supposed to be equal without relying quirks, under PGI's balance philosophy. Quirks should not be the answer to everything.

TBH the splash damage of the CER-PPC is also some sort of "quirk" because it differs
from the original implementation. T
herefore as you said the Clan PPC should work the same way as IS and do all their damage to one zone.

[Pariah Devalis]

Wrathful Scythe, on 03 August 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Make it 12-13 damge max. 15 damage is just to much and would break the balance.

While I wouldn't be totaly against it, the IS ERPPC would need a big buff for that to happen. Allowing to fire 3 of them without GH and reducing it's heat. The IS ERPPC is already way worse than our clan one, buffing it even further is kinda stupid.

I would second this, and go a step further:

C-ERPPC 13 damage, 1/1 splash, increase cooldown to ~6.5 seconds.

IS-ERPPC 10 damage, 2.5/2.5 splash.

Wait, what? Pariah, a filthy Clammer, is suggesting improving IS ERPPC as well by giving them the current Clan ERPPC damage?

Yes. Yes I am. ERPPC for both Clan and IS tech do not do damage commensurate with the heat output they generate. I don't think 15 PPFLD is necessary or a good idea for anyone. However....

Standard PPC are a hot AC10 analogue for the IS. Clan ERPPC are supposed to be a hot Gauss analogue for the Clans. Where does that leave IS ERPPC? They are too hot to be equal to an AC10, and too low damage to be equal to a Gauss. Either way you slice it, it is a black sheep of the IS PPC family.

By increasing the PPFLD of the Clan ERPPC and allowing the 5 points of splash for the IS ERPPC, value is increased for both weapons given the heat generated, and both deal the same total (if not necessarily of equal value) damage. Also, by leveraging the cooldowns, you can make C-ERPPC hit harder on a given spot but the IS-ERPPC can hit more often.

Edit:

Optional lore excuse? ER technology not only removes the minimum range, but boosts the damage output of the cannons. Clan technology has improved magnetic stabilization fields, however, allowing more of that boosted damage to be focused at the expense of increased charge time.

TL;DR:
IS-ERPPC acts like current C-ERPPC. C-ERPPC has less splash more pinpoint but a longer cooldown.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 03 August 2015 - 09:22 AM.

[Elizander]

I'd be happy if ER PPCs did about 1-2 less heat.

[El Bandito]

Antares102, on 03 August 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

TBH the splash damage of the CER-PPC is also some sort of "quirk" because it differs
from the original implementation. Therefore as you said the Clan PPC should work the same way as IS and do all their damage to one zone.

What you failed to realize is that even with such quirk, the Clan CERPPC is every way superior to the IS ERPPC.
In truth, IS ERPPC should be slightly superior to the CERPPC since it weighs more and costs more slots.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 August 2015 - 09:08 AM.

[1453 R]

The cER-PPC is currently 100% superior to the iER-PPC - same PPFLD damage (10), same heat generation, increased projectile speed, decreased weight and crit slots. Jumping it back up to 15 main bolt damage would be too much. Besides, I've gotten kills/component destructs with the splash damage; it offers a little bit of leeway for missing the precise component you hit, and offers different gameplay.

I would instead look at readjusting the heat, and perhaps ghost heat, for iPPCs and iER-PPCs. Let the Clan gun retain its crit/weight/damage advantages, but get the iPPC and iER-PPC dealing significantly more DPH, and possibly knock its base cycle time down a twitch or two so it deals better DPS, as well. Make it friendly and easier to use, and by all means kick the GH limit up to 3 for each gun. That way the Clan cannon is a one-shot murderhouse with a seriously heavy heat load that can't really gang together well, while the i(ER-)PPCs are significantly cooler, better in scrums due to the fire rate bonus, and easier to run in groups for fatbros like the Awesome.

See how that works out.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

my gauss + 2 ppc timby supports this idea,i personally dont.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

There are some mechs I would like to see receive a quirk that gave them the 15 damage ER PPC. Summoner, Ice Ferret, Kit Fox, Mist Lynx could all benefit from such a weapon without really having the ability to boat them.

However, as a general buff to the weapon? No, I think that would be a bad idea.

[J0anna]

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 August 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

WE are in these massive machines of war, armored to the teeth and yet we gotta cower in a foxhole like a WWII infantry man. This game plays more like a Human based FPS w/o the ability to crouch in cover vs a Mechwarrior game....

Assaults and heavies are supposed to lead a charge, be the bastion of defense or offense, yet with the damage output, no one can do anything...its poke out, melt....poke out, melt....

I can only do deduce one of two things from a statement like that:

1). You didn't play (a lot of) tabletop

2). The group you played with was very different from the one I did

In our group, you never left a mech standing in the open at the end of your round unless the enemy had no los to it. Crossing open areas always had to be weighed against what weapon shots the enemy had left. The usual move was from cover to cover minimizing enemy shots against you (at least forcing some heavy drms), then moving your remaining mechs after all enemy mechs had fired, a bit more aggressively. Allowing a non-drm shot (or a low one) to a gauss, ppc, or heavy ac was usually a recipe for disaster (I distinctly remember losing an atlas to a critical hit from a gauss that I stupidly moved, allowing a gauss shot with only a walking drm, which effectively cost me the match). So yes mechs might be heavily armored, but they are also heavily armed.

On and a small correction, in bt lore heavies normally lead the charge while assaults are more relied on to anchor the defense.

[MrJeffers]

I'd rather just see the C-ERPPC dropped to 14 heat, and maybe reduce/eliminate the splash damage as well.

[Weeny Machine]

ScarecrowES, on 03 August 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

In fairness, Fandragon... in the tabletop game, one alpha without all that inflation was enough to melt a mech too, if the die rolled in your favor. Remember, we have hardpoint inflation, yes... but we also have double armor and internals per ton and quirks out the Wahoo. Mechs actually take a lot more hits to die than any of the systems they are based on. In tabletop, a single PPC or large laser is something to be feared.

Can't wait for the DWs' 60 ppd (dual ppc dual gaus) alphas. One shotting lights and mediums left and right...wohoooo...

...no not really.


The TTK is pretty much ridiculous since the hitreg fix thanks to murderous alphas on long range. Actually I am considering to take a break or quit. For me it feels like LoL-Alpha-Warrior Online: Medal of Honour Editon

[Wrathful Scythe]

El Bandito, on 03 August 2015 - 09:08 AM, said:

What you failed to realize is that even with such quirk, the Clan CERPPC is every way superior to the IS ERPPC.
In truth, IS ERPPC should be slightly superior to the CERPPC since it weighs more and costs more slots.

Only if IS lose every PPC quirk there is. We pay with fixed equipment and (mostly) bad engine sizes to have those lighter PPCs. ISERPPC need a buff but they shouldn't be outright better than CERPPCs because clans don't have any quirks worth mentioning unlike some IS machines. The 9S is still pretty strong and even slight changes could make this thing a beast again.

Not to say that both PPCs are kinda bad. The normal IS PPC is times better (most of the times) and laser/ballistic is still the way to go for easy earnings.

[El Bandito]

Wrathful Scythe, on 03 August 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

Only if IS lose every PPC quirk there is.

No problem, as long as IS ERPPC is superior than the CERPPC. After all, core balancing should be done in this game, instead of bandage quirks.