36 replies to this topic

[Grammer Pollice]

Hey all, just starting to get back in to Mechwarrior, and wondering if this seemed like a passable build.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...243335ee9741b56

Like the title says, it's a BJ-3 with an ERPPC in each arm, an XL 235, Endo Steel Frame, AMS with a half ton of ammo, BAP, 4 Jets, 4 additional double heat sinks, and pretty much maxed armor.

It feels a lot like my Uziel from MW4 Mercs, providing ranged support early while looking for opportunities to flank.

Is this a workable build for a medium, or should I leave the long range guns to the heavies and assaults?

[Leone]

Honestly, I prefer my sniping on lighter mechs. Here's why.

Everyone's got similar heat caps. Yes, larger mechs can fit more heatsinks than smaller ones, but only by so much. So, a heavier mech can do more damage by carrying closer range weaponry (Which tends to be cooler, at the cost of range.) Now ErPpcs run hot, but, your weight class means firing those PPCs doesn't overheat you and prevent you from firing the laser bank a heavier mech could also be carrying. That build there is well built to maintain distance, pop in an outta cover, and get quicker shots off than a clan Large laser could. Only the Gauss out pokes it, and the Gauss has charge up, so can't defend as well against jump sniping an such. Also, you've got one of the mediums, (Whose supposed to be a pokey flanker harasser type) doing the sniping, and thus counter sniping, freeing up the heavies and assaults to hold the line of battle.

<o. I would group up with that. I wouldn't necessarily run it, as I consider IS erppcs too hot for their damage, but it's not a bad build for what you want.

Not too different from a Blackhawk jump sniper really. Just remember to toggle the ams off an on as needed. Once it's learned you've ams, a skilled LRM pilot will dead fire missile near you to get your ams to reveal your location.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 19 July 2015 - 10:05 PM.

[Spleenslitta]

I suggest dropping the BAP and AMS. 0.5 tonn of AMS ammo won't do much anyhow. You don't have Streaks so the BAP doesn't do much either.
You'll be staying at long range so the BAP will rarelly be in range. Besides the BAP might get it's range halved when the ECM gets nerfed soon.

Instead of BAP and AMS you could get 3 small lasers and 1 medium laser for when the enemy get's close.
With all those heatsinks you can fire the lasers pretty much endlessly even on hot maps.
ER PPC's aren't exactly damage to heat efficient. Especially at close range where things tend to get hectic.

[Brizna]

The build concept is good but there are a few things I would tweak to optimise it.

AMS: You are better of with a Radar Deprivation module, 0 tons and slots stops ALL missiles if you position yourself properly.
Beagle: While increased radar range and faster info gathering is useful 1.5T and 2 slots in a 45 toner that is sniping doesn't seam optimal.
Back armor: Too much, you are sniping so you shouldn't get shot in the back, you will get hit in the front.

You may want to consider regular PPCs, in most maps you won't be shooting so far that the ER part of ERPPC is relevant, the extra heat will be everywhere though.

My BJ3: 4JJ, XL235, 2xPPC 2xMlas

Edited by Brizna, 19 July 2015 - 10:00 PM.

[Inflatable Fish]

two ERPPC run too hot for comfort on p. much every mech. also, the BJ-3 is quirked for the regular ones but not the ER ones.

[Brizna]

I tested it some time ago and PPC quirks apply to ERPPC too, at least in BJ-3.

[jss78]

BAP is technically useful on this mech for the increased sensor range, but on a 45-tonner the 1.5 ton weight feels like a lot.

I think the acute problem with this build is heat buildup -- you won't be able to fire those wonderful twin-ERPPCs enough.

What I'd immediately do is drop two JJ (with the recently buffed-up JJs, two make a Blackjack jump quite well), BAP, and remove just a bit of armour from head and legs. You can then fit three more DHS while using all tonnage and all slots:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e20f4dad2f020bb

I like AMS, although I might on this build replace it with a pair of small lasers, mounted in the side torsos. That'd give you increased peak DPS for close encounters (which you should try and avoid though), and give you something to pew-pew with in case you lose both arms.

[Jorunn]

I agree with all of the above, PPCs over ERPPCs due to quirks and excessive heat buildup and I like more close in backup. I'm not a great PPC marksman
BJ-3 PPC/ML

The Thunderbolt TDR-9S is a better ERPPC sniper

[TercieI]

Jorunn, on 20 July 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

I agree with all of the above, PPCs over ERPPCs due to quirks and excessive heat buildup and I like more close in backup. I'm not a great PPC marksman
BJ-3 PPC/ML

Using an XL220 is a very bad idea. It's 1 ton lighter than the XL225, but contains one less DHS. And, worse than that, by pushing that DHS outside the engine, it replaces a "TrueDub" (2.0 heat dissipation) with a "WeakDub" (1.4 heat dissipation).

This is how I would improve that build. Though I haven't tested it, I would guess that the bit of speed would be more valuable than the fourth JJ and this would be even better.

[The Great Unwashed]

You can even throw both PPCs in one arm for better convergence and hope it doesn't get shot off.

BJ-3

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 20 July 2015 - 07:05 AM.

[TercieI]

The Great Unwashed, on 20 July 2015 - 07:03 AM, said:

You can even throw both PPCs in one arm for better convergence and hope it doesn't get shot off.

BJ-3

If you're comfortable with that risk, you can also move the MLs to the torso and strip the LA some for the last JJ.

[Grammer Pollice]

Wow, thanks guys! I have a lot to think about, but it's good to know I was on the right track.

Brizna, on 20 July 2015 - 01:25 AM, said:

I tested it some time ago and PPC quirks apply to ERPPC too, at least in BJ-3.

How exactly did you test it? I'd like to try it out.

[TercieI]

Victor Perth, on 20 July 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

Wow, thanks guys! I have a lot to think about, but it's good to know I was on the right track.



How exactly did you test it? I'd like to try it out.

The Blackjack is one of my favorite chassis, but the 3 is not one of the strongest variants. The best right now is pretty clearly the 1X. If you decide you like the chassis, well, I'll just leave this here.

[Grammer Pollice]

Good news everyone! In the mechlab when you mouse over the ERPPC, it DOES list the PPC quirks as working.

[Brizna]

Victor Perth, on 20 July 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

How exactly did you test it? I'd like to try it out.

Well I read about that in the forums from someone and tried it out, I couldn't check speed properly but range was pretty obvious once I launched test grounds.

Edited by Brizna, 20 July 2015 - 09:36 AM.

[TercieI]

Brizna, on 20 July 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

Well I read about that in the forums from someone and tried it out, I couldn't check speed properly but range was pretty obvious once I launched test grounds.

What about cooling? That's the biggie, IMO.

[Brizna]

Terciel1976, on 20 July 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

What about cooling? That's the biggie, IMO.

I'm sorry but as I said in my first post "I tested it some time ago" which actually means quite a lot of time so I don't remember the details, all I know is that I was satisfied with all my measurements except for projectile speed which I didn't find a good way to test, and i remember this because I reported it as a bug to PGI along this lines: "hey guys apparently regular PPC quirks work for ERPPC in BJ3, I tested it except for speed which was hard to test"

So back to your question, I can only imagine I compared heat generation to some other unquirked mech with equal cooling, but there is also another possibility, BJ3 maybe didn't have PPC heat generation quirks back then because it was before the last major quirk pass.

I wish I could answer better, but as I said it's been several months, all I know is I tested it and I was satisfied by my tests.

Oh and as Victor Perth mentions new mechlab does show those quirks working for ERPPC, I have not performed any field tests.

[Shadey99]

I mastered the Blackjacks a little while ago and while the 1X has a slight statistical lead for me (1.25 win rate, 1.5 K;D, and an average damage per match of 403.57), my BJ-3 comes very very close (win rate 1, 1.44 K:D, 358.3 average damage per match). I've even used it in CW to good effect (6 kills, 600 damage with just that mech).

My build lets you switch form PPCs in the mid to long range, to SPLs up close and personal. Of course if you can catch someone at 80-120m and hit them with all of them at once... Well even better. Heat of course is the critical thing and managing it takes some work.

Oh and yes as mentioned above I could have switch to a 225 XL like the ones in my Commandos, but at 1 ton heavier the easiest change is to either cut out some JJs, or drop a DHS to stick it in... And even then the heat management difference is very mild you go from a total of 26% (12 DHS) to 29% at best (13 DHS) and I've found the extra mobility more useful in getting back out from under fire. If your going to go ER PPC though, you certainly want the extra heat efficiency.

[TercieI]

Shadey99, on 20 July 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

I mastered the Blackjacks a little while ago and while the 1X has a slight statistical lead for me (1.25 win rate, 1.5 K;D, and an average damage per match of 403.57), my BJ-3 comes very very close (win rate 1, 1.44 K:D, 358.3 average damage per match). I've even used it in CW to good effect (6 kills, 600 damage with just that mech).

My build lets you switch form PPCs in the mid to long range, to SPLs up close and personal. Of course if you can catch someone at 80-120m and hit them with all of them at once... Well even better. Heat of course is the critical thing and managing it takes some work.

Oh and yes as mentioned above I could have switch to a 225 XL like the ones in my Commandos, but at 1 ton heavier the easiest change is to either cut out some JJs, or drop a DHS to stick it in... And even then the heat management difference is very mild you go from a total of 26% (12 DHS) to 29% at best (13 DHS) and I've found the extra mobility more useful in getting back out from under fire. If your going to go ER PPC though, you certainly want the extra heat efficiency.

No, you don't drop a DHS, you keep the same amount of DHS because for each complete increment of 25 up to 250 your engine is rated, the engine contains a DHS. So the 220 contains 8, but the 225 contains 9. Also, all DHS inherent in engines have a dissipation of 2.0 (TrueDub) where those outside of the engine (or in engine "slots" for engines 275 and over) have a dissipation of 1.4 (WeakDub).

Your build has a 26% heat efficiency in Smurfy. With a 225 it has a 27% heat efficiency and it's 2 kph faster. It's marginal, but there is literally no downside here (note that Smurfy lists both as having 12 DHS).

The fact that the XL220 weighs a full ton less than the XL225 and requires an external DHS (weighing one ton and making the effective weight the same) to meet the 10 HS minimum makes it one of the very worst engines in the entire game. It should only be used by a mech with a 220 engine cap, which doesn't actually exist, so the engine should actually never be used.

Edited by Terciel1976, 20 July 2015 - 03:46 PM.

[Shadey99]

You didn't explain anything I didn't know. However as I said the only ways to free up an extra ton of weight for the 225 on that design is to remove 1 external DHS or a pair of JJs. Both tradoffs are ones I just don't feel are worth it. I mastered the variant and have used it extensively and just never said to myself 'gee, I want a 225 in here'. Then I went on to say why I didn't do it. Maybe you should read next time, because you obviously missed everything I said just so you could rant (again) about 225s always being (at least marginally) better even though I AGREED WITH YOU. Thanks.

Btw you missed the option of tossing the pair of JJs for that shiny 225 giving you 13 DHS. Hence I listed that as the max you can fit on the design without removing all Jjs or cutting into weapons.

Edited by Shadey99, 20 July 2015 - 03:56 PM.