237 replies to this topic

[Dino Might]

Ed Steele, on 06 August 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:

Doh, come on, SHS are supposed to be SINGLE HEAT SINKS, they do not need to be buffed, earn some freaking Cbills and upgrade to DHS already!

So....space taxes.

Thanks, Space Obama...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ed Steele, on 06 August 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:

Doh, come on, SHS are supposed to be SINGLE HEAT SINKS, they do not need to be buffed, earn some freaking Cbills and upgrade to DHS already!

Because having a choice that isn't really a choice is great game design. /sarcasm

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 06 August 2015 - 03:44 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

WM Quicksilver, on 06 August 2015 - 03:44 AM, said:

Because having a choice that isn't really a choice is great game design. /sarcasm

It's still a choice! You can either choose to run a dual Gauss build, or run anything else! See? A choice! /also sarcasm

[xWiredx]

When will all of these ridiculous "eliminate the grind for top-tier everything because everybody wants god mode mechs" posts end?

I agree the price is too high for DHS conversion, but I do think it should have to be a paid-for equipment change.

Edited by xWiredx, 06 August 2015 - 05:03 AM.

[meteorol]

Type 1 (lets just say doubles): Higher cap, lower dissipation
Type 2 (Singles): Lower cap, higher dissipation

Problem solved. A wise person once said:

Quote

for balance. corerule ignore.

Edited by meteorol, 06 August 2015 - 05:08 AM.

[Pjwned]

Ed Steele, on 06 August 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:

Doh, come on, SHS are supposed to be SINGLE HEAT SINKS, they do not need to be buffed, earn some freaking Cbills and upgrade to DHS already!

Why do single heat sinks exist if they're supposed to be useless? I assume nobody has bothered answering this because there's no way to defend it other than "it's a tax to switch to DHS and if it's annoying & completely worthless then it's working as intended."

Refusing to even attempt to answer this can only mean that I'm right, partly because I am.

xWiredx, on 06 August 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

When will all of these ridiculous "eliminate the grind for top-tier everything because everybody wants god mode mechs" posts end?

I agree the price is too high for DHS conversion, but I do think it should have to be a paid-for equipment change.

Right, because making SHS not useless would mean god mode mechs, and forcing people to grind c-bills to pay a 1.5m tax for DHS on every single mech is really worthwhile.

What you could alternatively think is that making SHS a viable option would be worthwhile, but I guess exaggerating and throwing out strawmen is preferable to that.

[Corrado]

IMO this is the ONLY build that gets slightly better heat dissipation with SHS compared to DHS.

BadShee

[Johnny Z]

Pjwned, on 06 August 2015 - 05:34 AM, said:

Why do single heat sinks exist if they're supposed to be useless? I assume nobody has bothered answering this because there's no way to defend it other than "it's a tax to switch to DHS and if it's annoying & completely worthless then it's working as intended."

Refusing to even attempt to answer this can only mean that I'm right, partly because I am.



Right, because making SHS not useless would mean god mode mechs, and forcing people to grind c-bills to pay a 1.5m tax for DHS on every single mech is really worthwhile.

What you could alternatively think is that making SHS a viable option would be worthwhile, but I guess exaggerating and throwing out strawmen is preferable to that.

Your right single heats sinks shouldnt be useless really. Also your being trolled by Omni mech pilots.

Edited by Johnny Z, 06 August 2015 - 05:41 AM.

[Pjwned]

Corrado, on 06 August 2015 - 05:37 AM, said:

IMO this is the ONLY build that gets slightly better heat dissipation with SHS compared to DHS.

BadShee

That's still terrible compared to a build like this with a bigger engine that isn't destroyed on side torso loss; yeah you can have 5% more cooling efficiency according to Smurfy's but that's not worth it.

Edited by Pjwned, 06 August 2015 - 05:56 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Ed Steele, on 05 August 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

The only reason the heat scale is the way it is, is to increase TTK so people don't cry about it (some still do).

The current heat scale does NOT increase TTK, in fact it LOWERS it. Having heat sinks (whether single OR double) increase the cap allows for extra heat to be alpha'd without any penalty. There needs to be a hard cap of 30, and heat sinks ONLY increase dissipation.
As far as SHS vs DHS, it needs to remain an UPgrade not a side grade. Having a hard heat cap levels them a bit, and the additional crit space needed for DHS is the trade-off.

[Boulangerie]

Hotthedd, on 06 August 2015 - 05:52 AM, said:

The current heat scale does NOT increase TTK, in fact it LOWERS it. Having heat sinks (whether single OR double) increase the cap allows for extra heat to be alpha'd without any penalty. There needs to be a hard cap of 30, and heat sinks ONLY increase dissipation.
As far as SHS vs DHS, it needs to remain an UPgrade not a side grade. Having a hard heat cap levels them a bit, and the additional crit space needed for DHS is the trade-off.

I wouldn't mind a much smaller increase in the cap as opposed to a completely set point for it, but I also would like the heat cap to be a possible quirk for mechs as well.
I think a Hard cap of 30 would be a great starting point, but have a potential for going up to 40-45 maybe? I haven't played around too much with the numbers in this regard as opposed to some people earlier in the thread.

I like the idea of a reduced cap as it would limit greatly the high alpha high heat builds, however, it would definitely buff the Gauss rifle builds we have currently IMO.

[MikeBend]

This has been proposed before: Let us put both SHS and DHS at the same time, then SHS will see some use.

[Hotthedd]

Boulangerie, on 06 August 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

I wouldn't mind a much smaller increase in the cap as opposed to a completely set point for it, but I also would like the heat cap to be a possible quirk for mechs as well.
I think a Hard cap of 30 would be a great starting point, but have a potential for going up to 40-45 maybe? I haven't played around too much with the numbers in this regard as opposed to some people earlier in the thread.

I like the idea of a reduced cap as it would limit greatly the high alpha high heat builds, however, it would definitely buff the Gauss rifle builds we have currently IMO.

It would, but Gauss Rifles have their own drawbacks, and they cannot be effectively boated.

[Mister Blastman]

Nice ideas.

I'd really love to also see the heat cap set at a hard maximum of 30 while simultaneously increasing the dissipation rate to allow heat neutral builds. It would discourage alpha striking and vary play more.

[Mcgral18]

Mister Blastman, on 06 August 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Nice ideas.

I'd really love to also see the heat cap set at a hard maximum of 30 while simultaneously increasing the dissipation rate to allow heat neutral builds. It would discourage alpha striking and vary play more.

I've pretty much given up on any significant change.


This suggestion is simple on purpose; theoretically just adjusting a number or two. In practice...I hope it wasn't coded it poorly.

[Almond Brown]

WM Quicksilver, on 06 August 2015 - 03:44 AM, said:

Because having a choice that isn't really a choice is great game design. /sarcasm

So you prefer a choice where the difference between the 2 doesn't matter? How in frack could that idea be seen as a "choice"?

[Mcgral18]

Almond Brown, on 06 August 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

So you prefer a choice where the difference between the 2 doesn't matter? How in frack could that idea be seen as a "choice"?

You mean, where DHS are still always superior? Where you can choose to spend 20 extra tons for extra dissipation?


It just bridges the gap, DHS would still be the much better choice, because the 10 TrueDubs.

[Almond Brown]

Pjwned, on 06 August 2015 - 05:34 AM, said:

Why do single heat sinks exist if they're supposed to be useless? I assume nobody has bothered answering this because there's no way to defend it other than "it's a tax to switch to DHS and if it's annoying & completely worthless then it's working as intended."

Refusing to even attempt to answer this can only mean that I'm right, partly because I am.

Right, because making SHS not useless would mean god mode mechs, and forcing people to grind c-bills to pay a 1.5m tax for DHS on every single mech is really worthwhile.

What you could alternatively think is that making SHS a viable option would be worthwhile, but I guess exaggerating and throwing out strawmen is preferable to that.

OK, so we have now been given "viable" SHS's. Wonderful , now how much would the "upgrade" to the now minimally better DHS's be set at? Because for them to stay at their current "upgrade" price would be stupid, obviously...

[Tristan Winter]

I'll support any movement to improve Single Heat Sinks. Ideally, I would like them to be a viable alternative to DHS in some cases, just like standard structure is sometimes a viable alternative to Endo. Very rarely, of course. But some builds need the crit space more than the weight.

I wish SHS either had higher capacity but lower dissipation or lower capacity but higher dissipation. The latter option would work well with the fact that MWO, inexplicably, has a mechanic that allows mechs with SHS in the legs to cool down faster when standing in water.

Edited by Tristan Winter, 06 August 2015 - 10:24 AM.

[xWiredx]

When I was still learning how to play and grinding really hard to get some new mechs in my hangar, I used SHS quite often. Couldn't yet afford DHS on anything. Didn't phase me, just meant I had to learn how to manage heat better. There are definitely some builds that are more than viable with SHS, too. They aren't as abysmally bad as you think. Sure, they're of limited effectiveness up to the first 10 included in the engine, but outside the engine they are simply a trade-off compared to DHS: 2 tons and 2 slots for true double dissipation (2 SHS), or 1 ton and 3 slots for 1.4x dissipation (DHS, and I think it's 1.4x, has it changed?).

I don't participate in stock mech mondays very often, but I do have some stock mechs and they're not terrible. They're not as effective, but in the hands of a decent pilot they're not an overbearing issue leading to instant death.