237 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 07 August 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

It is a real problem for new players.

Going from DHS trials to SHS new mechs, they have no idea what's going on.



Normalizing engine heatsinks still ***** the sub 250 engines, but at least it helps the new players not get absolutely curb stomped by heat.


Upgrade to DHS is still a straight up upgrade, that's what you want, isn't it?

So new players are idiots?

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

So new players are idiots?

PGI's new player experience and documentation is Terribad.


I guess it's not hidden in the Upgrade tab anymore, which might be a clue.

[Pjwned]

Hotthedd, on 07 August 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

Or how about YOU go play Call of Duty if that is what you like so much? This is a BattleTech based game, and many of us funded MW:O for that very reason.

Nice cop out, obviously if I want to make a choice between 2 upgrades be an actual choice it's because I like Call of Duty and obviously that's what I want this game to become, saying that definitely doesn't show that you're a tool who can't refute anything.

Also keep ignoring that SHS had its use in Tabletop as cheap equipment but is literally useless here, just dance around the facts by rationalizing it with "needed progression" and ignoring that DHS would remain just as good as it is now.

[Hotthedd]

Pjwned, on 07 August 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

Nice cop out, obviously if I want to make a choice between 2 upgrades be an actual choice it's because I like Call of Duty and obviously that's what I want this game to become, saying that definitely doesn't show that you're a tool who can't refute anything.

Also keep ignoring that SHS had its use in Tabletop as cheap equipment but is literally useless here, just dance around the facts by rationalizing it with "needed progression" and ignoring that DHS would remain just as good as it is now.

It wasn't a cop out, kid. It was a response to your comparison between the two games.

SHS has its use in MW:O. They vent heat from your 'mech. (Just not as well as DHS, which is an UPGRADE)

[Pjwned]

Hotthedd, on 07 August 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

It wasn't a cop out, kid. It was a response to your comparison between the two games.

Oh okay, it was just a baseless assertion not addressing anything that I actually said; definitely not a cop out my bad.

Quote

SHS has its use in MW:O. They vent heat from your 'mech. (Just not as well as DHS, which is an UPGRADE)

So in other words useless.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 05 August 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

Let's discuss buffing SHS to a blanket 0.15H/s dissipation for internal engine and external heatsinks. Yes, greater than the 0.14 DHS external, but worse than the 2.0 TrueDub internal.

I like the direction of the goal, NPE, but after thinking about it I think these numbers are way too close.


DHS cost 1.5 million CBills, and they take up triple the crit slots (triple crit slots have a huge build impact in IS vs. Clan Faction balance).


They should be significantly better, not just a little better, to justify that.



That doesn't mean we can't do something for SHS, but SHS shouldn't end up giving 83% to 88% of the efficiency at zero cost, and 1/3rd the crit space.



Now if you wanted to boost SHS to 1.5 and DHS to true 2.0, that's a different story - but I don't think that's going to happen and it would also negatively impact TTK.




Your proposal would basically be a tax on anyone who optimizes, and min/maxes - but it would also likely have the side effect of seeing many very casual players opt to sometimes not upgrade their SHS.

Think about that for a moment.

This has an indirect negative impact in further fragmenting basic build performance levels amongst what are less dedicated vs. dedicated players.



Where as now pretty much everyone is forced to upgrade to DHS, under your proposal many players might feel their build is "good enough", just like there are players not using optimal engines, or not using any modules, etc.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 August 2015 - 09:47 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Pjwned, on 07 August 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

Go play some Korean MMORPG grindfest if you need a carrot on a stick at all times, I hear Nexon has plenty of that stuff or there's other non-Nexon games like Elsword, TERA, Skyforge, etc.

There ya go, Sparky! You might want to re-read your own posts to see what the response was to. Maybe its time for your Ritalin.

Making SHS into something they are not, never were, and should not be is a bad idea and you should feel bad for supporting it.

There, have I been clear enough for you? This is a BattleTech based game. If you do not like it, go play a game you like. Just stop trying to screw with a universe many OTHER people like and support.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 07 August 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

Where as now pretty much everyone is forced to upgrade to DHS, under your proposal many players might feel their build is "good enough", just like there are players not using optimal engines, or not using any modules, etc.

And I'm fine with that. Although I looked at the .XML after writing it, and multiple solutions are easy changes.

-<Module faction="Clan,InnerSphere" CType="CHeatSinkStats" name="HeatSink_MkI" id="3000">
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1" slots="1"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\HeatSink_MkI.dds" descTag="@HeatSink_MkI_desc" nameTag="@HeatSink_MkI"/>
<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-1.0" engineCooling="0.1" cooling="0.1"/>
-<EffectList>
<Effect name="SteamEffect" asset="mech_effects.heatsinks.steam_a"/>
</EffectList>
<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_Mech_HeatSink_Destroyed"/>
</Module>
-<Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CHeatSinkStats" name="DoubleHeatSink_MkI" id="3001">
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1" slots="3"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\DoubleHeatSink_MkI.dds" descTag="@DoubleHeatSink_MkI_desc" nameTag="@DoubleHeatSink_MkI"/>
<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-1.4" engineCooling="0.2" cooling="0.14"/>

Heat cap, engine heatsink dissipation and additional heatsink dissipation are separate values for all heatsinks.

• Normalize engine heatsinks
  
• buff SHS
  
• adjust DHS

But, I'm not a fan of increasing DHS with the current heat mechanics. If you normalize the Engine heatsinks to 1.5 and buff all external DHS to 2.0s, you would buff things like the Myth Lynx, Urbie and Locust, but also Clan mechs that can mount 25+heatsinks. I don't think you want that.


Normalizing engine heatsinks is a fair option (but naturally still shafts sub 250).

[Joseph Mallan]

Pjwned, on 07 August 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

So in other words useless.

Less useful is not useless.

Mcgral18, on 07 August 2015 - 08:53 AM, said:

PGI's new player experience and documentation is Terribad.


I guess it's not hidden in the Upgrade tab anymore, which might be a clue.

though related... does not answer the question?

[Mcgral18]

Hotthedd, on 07 August 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

There ya go, Sparky! You might want to re-read your own posts to see what the response was to. Maybe its time for your Ritalin.

Making SHS into something they are not, never were, and should not be is a bad idea and you should feel bad for supporting it.

There, have I been clear enough for you? This is a BattleTech based game. If you do not like it, go play a game you like. Just stop trying to screw with a universe many OTHER people like and support.

You realize almost nothing is TT? Those AC100s on the Hunchback? Not exactly the AC20s from TT, nor the AC40s they should be with doubled armour. Over double what they should be.


All MWO has in common with TT are names.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 07 August 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

You realize almost nothing is TT? Those AC100s on the Hunchback? Not exactly the AC20s from TT, nor the AC40s they should be with doubled armour. Over double what they should be.


All MWO has in common with TT are names.

That depends on what an actual "turn" turns out to be in real time!
It uses a Cyclic rate similar to the old Solaris rules. The number of armor points are changed to make a the mechs live longer than they were designed to!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 07 August 2015 - 10:13 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Mcgral18, on 07 August 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

You realize almost nothing is TT? Those AC100s on the Hunchback? Not exactly the AC20s from TT, nor the AC40s they should be with doubled armour. Over double what they should be.


All MWO has in common with TT are names.

Agreed that the originally screwed up damage over 10 seconds, coupled with instant PPFLD, and the resulting doubled armor band-aid, and then the higher ammo count band-aid have moved us away from TT, this is still nonetheless a BATTLETECH game.

Personally I believe that every step they have taken AWAY from TT has only caused other problems, and screwing with SHS will only be another step in the wrong direction.

The argument that since PGI has taken SOME steps away from TT means that even more steps would be okay is a fallacy of logic.

[Roadkill]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

dubs only require a short grind to earn. 1.5 Mill is not a huge amount. And less and less Mechs will come with singles as we move on. So problem is not a real problem.

Dubs require ~20 games to earn for a new player, and that's not a "short grind" when you're new to the game. That's terrible.

And it has to be repeated 2 more times in order to unlock the other 2 basic mechs that you need to buy, and that's on top of the c-bills you need to save up in order to buy those Mechs.

For all intents and purposes, Dubs are a required upgrade. At 1.5 million, that's ridiculous.

[Boulangerie]

IMO game balance needs to provide viable options. I like how endo and ferro work because there are tradeoffs for using them. In TT, the SHS are actually balanced against DHS in two ways not actually applicable to MWO.

1. They cost less. if you were playing the RPG, money is a lot harder to come by, and some equipment might be harder to get our repair. MWO doesn't have repair costs, and as some have said 1.5 mil isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.

2. BV: your "army" had to have roughly the same BV as opponents if you are playing PVP. This takes into account all equipment on your mech and higher tech "costs" more BV. This is why clan tech has to field less mechs to stay even. MWO doesn't take into account any of the hardware when matching up forces, just relative player skills.

What I'm trying to get at is that DHS and SHS are fine and actually balanced on TT in different ways than performance. In MWO, they aren't actually balanced, it's a straight upgrade.

Whether you are ok with this in a strictly pvp game seems to be the main debate here.

This is a really great series of articles on game design, I'd read at least the first two, definitions and viable options.
http://www.sirlin.ne...t-1-definitions
sorry posting from phone and link might not work

Edited by Boulangerie, 07 August 2015 - 10:29 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

20 games IS a short Grind.

[FupDup]

Hotthedd, on 07 August 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

Or how about YOU go play Call of Duty if that is what you like so much? This is a BattleTech based game, and many of us funded MW:O for that very reason.

Last time I heard, Call of Duty actually does have a progression system where the player levels up to unlock new guns, which might be better than their previous guns...So in other words, the progression system that you're asking for is a system that Call of Duty has.

By sharing a system with Call of Duty, we therefore make this game more SIMILAR to Call of Duty, not more different than it.

I just sank your battleship. #ggclose #gitrekt #nore

[Hotthedd]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

20 games IS a short Grind.

I suppose for the "I want it all right NAO!" crowd, 200 to 300 minutes is about 200 minutes past their attention span...

FupDup, on 07 August 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Last time I heard, Call of Duty actually does have a progression system where the player levels up to unlock new guns, which might be better than their previous guns...So in other words, the progression system that you're asking for is a system that Call of Duty has.

By sharing a system with Call of Duty, we therefore make this game more SIMILAR to Call of Duty, not more different than it.

I just sank your battleship. #ggclose #gitrekt #nore

LOL.

I chose CoD because it was an example given in Pjwned's argument. So, technically you rekt him.

[NocturnalBeast]

Pjwned, on 06 August 2015 - 11:05 PM, said:

The only reasons to leave something unbalanced are 1. incompetence and 2. laziness, and neither of those are valid excuses.

No, you leave it that way because this is "A BATTLETECH GAME" and single heatsinks are supposed to be older and inferior tech compared to double heatsinks in BATTLETECH. If you care nothing for BATTLETECH lore then why play this game.

[Roadkill]

Hotthedd, on 07 August 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

I suppose for the "I want it all right NAO!" crowd, 200 to 300 minutes is about 200 minutes past their attention span...

20+ games using SHS so that you can afford to buy a mandatory upgrade isn't going to sit well when this game launches on Steam.

You can be as dismissive as you want, but it only proves how elitist you are. The NPE in this game is terrible, and the 1.5 million c-bills required to upgrade to DHS is part of why it's so terrible.

SHS need to be viable. Either that or they need to stop selling Mechs that come with SHS.

[FupDup]

Hotthedd, on 07 August 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

LOL.

I chose CoD because it was an example given in Pjwned's argument. So, technically you rekt him.

He didn't make any comparisons to Call of Doody, so no it doesn't apply to him. You're the one who first brought it up, and thus it's targeted at you.