237 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Roadkill, on 07 August 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

20+ games using SHS so that you can afford to buy a mandatory upgrade isn't going to sit well when this game launches on Steam.

You can be as dismissive as you want, but it only proves how elitist you are. The NPE in this game is terrible, and the 1.5 million c-bills required to upgrade to DHS is part of why it's so terrible.

SHS need to be viable. Either that or they need to stop selling Mechs that come with SHS.

I did it.

You probably did it.

I never whined about it, and could not care less if someone else DOES whine about it. Because the sad fact is:
THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMETHING TO WHINE ABOUT.

The Steamers will come and most will go. No. Matter. What. Because that is what they do. Moving this game further in the wrong direction will not change that. It will only drive many of the CURRENT players away.

[Mcgral18]

Hotthedd, on 07 August 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

I did it.

You probably did it.

I never whined about it, and could not care less if someone else DOES whine about it. Because the sad fact is:
THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMETHING TO WHINE ABOUT.

The Steamers will come and most will go. No. Matter. What. Because that is what they do. Moving this game further in the wrong direction will not change that. It will only drive many of the CURRENT players away.

Be honest, does changing single heatsinks affect your game experience whatsoever?

[NocturnalBeast]

Roadkill, on 07 August 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

20+ games using SHS so that you can afford to buy a mandatory upgrade isn't going to sit well when this game launches on Steam.

You can be as dismissive as you want, but it only proves how elitist you are. The NPE in this game is terrible, and the 1.5 million c-bills required to upgrade to DHS is part of why it's so terrible.

SHS need to be viable. Either that or they need to stop selling Mechs that come with SHS.

I am tired of this " it is too tough for the poor new players" argument. New players will try the game and either like it and learn how to play effectively, or they will not like it and move on, just like everyone else here. When you people buy a board game do you skip reading the manual and just contact the manufacturer and tell them to rewrite the rules to whatever you want them to be, or do you read the rules and play it?

Edited by Ed Steele, 07 August 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[FupDup]

In other news, I decided to make a spreadsheet to compare McGral's 1.5 SHS to just making engine heatsinks always be 2.0. I also listed 2.0 external dubs just for funzies.



So, it appears that if you have fewer than 20 heatsinks, the 2.0 normalized engine sinks are a bit better. When you have at least 21 sinks, then McGral's 1.5 SHS become better. At 20 it's a tie.

So, McGral's version helps mechs that carry a crpaload of them, while the normalized 2.0 engine sinks help mechs that only have a few sinks.

I prefer the latter, because it can help out sub-250 engine mechs like many IS lights, most BJs, and most Vindis. Those mechs could switch to SHS so that their external required sinks don't eat up as many slots, thus they could squeeze in more tech upgrades (i.e. add Ferro at the same time as Endo on an Urbanmech, Commando, or Lolcust, etc.).

[M4rtyr]

Hotthedd, on 07 August 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

Agreed that the originally screwed up damage over 10 seconds, coupled with instant PPFLD, and the resulting doubled armor band-aid, and then the higher ammo count band-aid have moved us away from TT, this is still nonetheless a BATTLETECH game.

Personally I believe that every step they have taken AWAY from TT has only caused other problems, and screwing with SHS will only be another step in the wrong direction.

The argument that since PGI has taken SOME steps away from TT means that even more steps would be okay is a fallacy of logic.

Indeed... the further from TT they get the worse they get. It's poor implimentation that's caused bandaids like doubles armor and crap.

This is why this thread is so damn annoying to me... "yeah lets break things all the more!"

The problem isn't the heat sinks.. the problem is the heat MECHANIC.

So no, neither SHS or DHS should be changed at all before first changing the overall mechanic.

[Hotthedd]

FupDup, on 07 August 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

He didn't make any comparisons to Call of Doody, so no it doesn't apply to him. You're the one who first brought it up, and thus it's targeted at you.

I checked, and you are right. The CoD argument was in a different thread I was responding to.

Good for CoD having progression! Maybe they are learning from BattleTech!

Mcgral18, on 07 August 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Be honest, does changing single heatsinks affect your game experience whatsoever?

Of course it does! It's like a reward for hard work.
As opposed to the participation trophy many people seem to want.

[Roadkill]

Hotthedd, on 07 August 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

It will only drive many of the CURRENT players away.

Really? Why?

This change really wouldn't affect current players. It's designed to help NEW players, so that maybe they'll stick around long enough to become current players. You know, grow the community and all that.

I can't understand how making a change that won't affect current players (because their Mechs already have the mandatory upgrade) would drive those players away. Can you explain that to me?

[NocturnalBeast]

Roadkill, on 07 August 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

Really? Why?

This change really wouldn't affect current players. It's designed to help NEW players, so that maybe they'll stick around long enough to become current players. You know, grow the community and all that.

I can't understand how making a change that won't affect current players (because their Mechs already have the mandatory upgrade) would drive those players away. Can you explain that to me?

It will drive players away because you are fundamentally changing the game that they paid into / invested time in based on the fact that it is supposed to be "BATTLETECH GAME". Well, we hopefully have a real BATTLETECH game in the works now and I hope that HBS keeps it a niche game and as true to the TT rules and lore as possible.

Edited by Ed Steele, 07 August 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[Roadkill]

Ed Steele, on 07 August 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

When you people buy a board game do you skip reading the manual and just contact the manufacturer and tell them to rewrite the rules to whatever you want them to be, or do you read the rules and play it?

I read reviews about the game, and if the reviews say the rules are screwed up and hard to learn then I don't buy it.

Which is what's going to happen to MWO if PGI doesn't do something about the NPE before the Steam launch.

I don't know about you, but I want more targets to shoot at.

[Hotthedd]

Roadkill, on 07 August 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

Really? Why?

This change really wouldn't affect current players. It's designed to help NEW players, so that maybe they'll stick around long enough to become current players. You know, grow the community and all that.

I can't understand how making a change that won't affect current players (because their Mechs already have the mandatory upgrade) would drive those players away. Can you explain that to me?

Many of the current players funded this game because of the SOLE REASON of it being a BattleTech sim.

It isn't. But it is at least close. The further we get from that, however, the more of those players will leave. Messing with SHS might not be the straw that breaks the camel's back for many, but it will be for some, and the next straw (whatever it might be) will lose even more.

[Roadkill]

Ed Steele, on 07 August 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

It will drive players away because you are fundamentally changing the game that they paid into / invested time in based on the fact that it is supposed to be "BATTLETECH GAME".

1) that's already not true, and if you're a purist it never was.
2) it doesn't affect them.

So no, I still don't see it driving current players away. That makes no sense.

Edited by Roadkill, 07 August 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Roadkill, on 07 August 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

I read reviews about the game, and if the reviews say the rules are screwed up and hard to learn then I don't buy it.

Which is what's going to happen to MWO if PGI doesn't do something about the NPE before the Steam launch.

I don't know about you, but I want more targets to shoot at.

I think we can ALL agree that the NPE needs to be addressed/corrected/fixed.

I do not think changing core BattleTech principles is the way to do it.

[Roadkill]

Hotthedd, on 07 August 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

Many of the current players funded this game because of the SOLE REASON of it being a BattleTech sim.

Yeah, I'm one of them.

Quote

It isn't. But it is at least close. The further we get from that, however, the more of those players will leave. Messing with SHS might not be the straw that breaks the camel's back for many, but it will be for some, and the next straw (whatever it might be) will lose even more.

People come and go all the time. The problem that we have right now is that not enough new people are staying in the game. We need to retain them in order to support the game long-term.

So if changing SHS isn't the way to help do that - even though it's trivially easy and unlike other options wouldn't affect current players - then how do we make the game more appealing to new players?

I like this idea because it's easy and would be a pretty dramatic improvement to one of the worst parts of the NPE. But I'm open to other ideas if you have them.

Hotthedd, on 07 August 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

I do not think changing core BattleTech principles is the way to do it.

You mean like DHS at 1.4?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[NocturnalBeast]

Roadkill, on 07 August 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

1) that's already not true, and if you're a purist it never was.
2) it doesn't affect them.

So no, I still don't see it driving current players away. That makes no sense.

I stuck it out through the first-person view bait-and-switch, and the underwhelming CW and all of the heavy-handed buffs / nerfs, but this may be the last straw. If somehow PGI is convinced to radically alter the rules just because of the possible new players not liking it, then I will seriously consider moving on and finding something else to play until BATTLETECH comes out.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 07 August 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

But, I'm not a fan of increasing DHS with the current heat mechanics. If you normalize the Engine heatsinks to 1.5 and buff all external DHS to 2.0s, you would buff things like the Myth Lynx, Urbie and Locust, but also Clan mechs that can mount 25+heatsinks. I don't think you want that.

Actually, I think that could be an interesting direction.

The key would be that DHS become 2.0, but then the heat dissipation skills in the mech skill system get removed.


In a way, that would actually be a huge boost to NPE - because not having those heat skills is one of the larger gaps between performance of vets and new players, but also vets playing new mechs.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 August 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Roadkill, on 07 August 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

I read reviews about the game, and if the reviews say the rules are screwed up and hard to learn then I don't buy it.

Which is what's going to happen to MWO if PGI doesn't do something about the NPE before the Steam launch.

I don't know about you, but I want more targets to shoot at.

Unfortunately many of those reviews are skewed by troll posts by former players who feel like they were personally wronged and need to stick it to PGI and also fake positive posts by PGI shills, so I would trust my own impression of the game (especially since it is free to play).

[Hotthedd]

Roadkill, on 07 August 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm one of them.


People come and go all the time. The problem that we have right now is that not enough new people are staying in the game. We need to retain them in order to support the game long-term.

So if changing SHS isn't the way to help do that - even though it's trivially easy and unlike other options wouldn't affect current players - then how do we make the game more appealing to new players?

I like this idea because it's easy and would be a pretty dramatic improvement to one of the worst parts of the NPE. But I'm open to other ideas if you have them.

I'm a big fan of having a "cadet" PvE campaign.

They can learn some lore
They can learn to play
They can earn enough C-bills to fully master a medium 'mech (3 variants upgraded with DHS)

THEN throw them into the kiddie pool (Cadet matches only) MOAR C-bills!!

Then they should be ready.

[Roadkill]

Ed Steele, on 07 August 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

I stuck it out through the first-person view bait-and-switch, and the underwhelming CW and all of the heavy-handed buffs / nerfs, but this may be the last straw. If somehow PGI is convinced to radically alter the rules just because of the possible new players not liking it, then I will seriously consider moving on and finding something else to play until BATTLETECH comes out.

So you've been able to tolerate all these other things that do actually affect you, but changing just one more thing that won't affect you at all is more than you can handle?

I mean, c'mon dude, your DHS are 1.4. But you're vehemently opposed to having all internal heat sinks at 2.0 (instead of just DHS)?

[NocturnalBeast]

Hotthedd, on 07 August 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

I'm a big fan of having a "cadet" PvE campaign.

They can learn some lore
They can learn to play
They can earn enough C-bills to fully master a medium 'mech (3 variants upgraded with DHS)

THEN throw them into the kiddie pool (Cadet matches only) MOAR C-bills!!

Then they should be ready.

Yes, something similar to the MW2 cadet missions. This: http://m.youtube.com...h?v=Bf0EBHHeO-Q is what new players need.

Edited by Ed Steele, 07 August 2015 - 11:13 AM.

[AssaultPig]

The big thing is the engine heatsinks; if they were equivalent for DHS/SHS mechs there'd be at least some argument in favor of using SHS on some mechs.

The stuff about hewing to the TT rules is really dumb. This is a real time game where we aim for ourselves; you are never going to be able to 'simulate' turn based gameplay and dice rolling in that environment.